General Mana Base Brainstorm Thread

I do find manlands interesting in that they are fixing that require fixing to be maximally useful. It creates an interesting tension. I find myself wishing that I had the room to put temples in, and maybe I'll make myself the room, who knows. I think that Filters are higher priority for me should I want additions right now, because they support good ol' {c}. Speaking of that, I was meaning to quote this up from my thread:

Just did an interesting thought experiment with a random sampling of the decks I've drafted on here so far: How many colorless sources did I happen to support without even trying, if I were to want a {c} creature?

RUG mess: 4 sources (5 w/ 1 waste)
Jund control: 3 (4)
Bant value: 1.5 :oops:
UWR spellblink: 4 (5)
GW monsters: 5 (6)
GR wildfire: 5 (6)

Looks like on average, I had a decent {c} representation without even trying. This includes lands, rocks, and rampant growth effects. Obviously the Bant deck ain't gonna have a good time, but ah well.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Ooh, yes, i too am interested in manabases that are wastes-friendly. We've talked about painlands and filterlands, what else is there?

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Honestly not much
Theres a pile of lands that actually just tap for colorless though.
City of Brass doesn't work, but grand coliseum does
 
Putting this article here as a corollary to and perspective of the Karsten article tossed around all the time:
MANA BASE PROBABILITIES

The most important table for us is the Single mana base failure for turn 1 table about a third of the way down. The columns are number of spells of the type we care about. Recently, eldrazi with {c}. If you only have 1 spell of that type, you have a 8% failure of having the mana on turn 1 with only 4 lands. Four out of sixty. Seven lands is 95% probability to work. (These tables show the probability of failure, not success). Now at 2, 3 and up, the 7 rule becomes quickly a good one. Even at 2 though, 13% failure with 5/60 sources isn't shabby, considering this is T1.

The Karsten article doesn't handle splashes well because it doesn't take probability of even needing the land on a particular turn into account. You might not have even drawn the one eldrazi until turn 8! The table clearly shows that as your color commitment goes up, you land count quickly asymptotes at 16 lands/60, fairly good correlation to Karsten's 14/60 for a fully invested main color.

Anyway, take the data as y'all will.
My take: Good mana bases are still important, but don't panic over your lonely splash if you've only got 3-5 sources.
 
So what do we all think about this cycle:
?
They help out the {c} costs, and are cool. Also affordable! Seems like they slow your format down a little, but meh. Not worth it? My main competitor would probably be Temples? They help prevent non games and can dig for colorless sources if needed.... thoughts?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I like them, but imo their big benefit is providing a way for control decks to build mana. If your control decks are under a lot of pressure though, they might not really have time to really use them as they are fairly slow.
 
Didn't the old Dragonstorm list use them as well? Could be a way of allowing combo decks to generate mana for a mega-turn without using rituals.
That's a beautiful point. I am supporting Goggles Combo, and that requires a lot of mana in the go-off turn... nice.
 
Can I just bring up (again) how... annoying it is that so many cycles are only half complete, and only ever in the allied half of the cycles??! WTF wizards?

Hopes and dreams for storage lands crushed, considering they were in 5 enemy color slots (aka they don't exist + no custom format = :().

sooo... Temples. Anybody who runs them have any insight on how they perform?
 
I rate Temples about with shocks, though I don't know if that's objectively correct. They're card selection you don't need to dedicate space to, they find you the land you need or ship your fifth one to the bottom in aggro (basically Time Walk??). ETB tapped is a real cost but now that I'm playing with untapped scrylands too (a Chris T design iirc) I appreciate everything they do for midrange and control even more (fixing and selection in a neat little burrito). In Standard, temple-heavy decks ran extra lands because they knew they'd be able to scry them away as needed - in Cube, they enable slightly leaner manabases because if you're desperate you can t2 temple into much better odds of finding your third land on-curve.

I think they'll probably go into any Cube I build from now on, I love them so much.
 
shucks, those were such good temple pep talks I find myself tempted to go beyond the 5 enemy Temples I was thinking about and instead finding room for all 10!

all 10? Worth it (tm)?
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I love Temples especially in colour pairs that don't have great card selection (RW, BW, BR)

Hard to go wrong with all 10 but watch how many CIPT lands you have
 
shucks, those were such good temple pep talks I find myself tempted to go beyond the 5 enemy Temples I was thinking about and instead finding room for all 10!

all 10? Worth it (tm)?
Hell yes, man. Temples are great. I'd never cut them. They are the only ETB tapped lands I run now, though, unless you count the M10/ISD duals. I can't think of a single deck, even an aggro deck, that wouldn't like a Temple.
 
I'm running Temples in the ULD but I think I'm going to move them to the main cube because they're always very highly picked, which kind of defeats the point of the ULD.
 
The most important table for us is the Single mana base failure for turn 1 table about a third of the way down. The columns are number of spells of the type we care about. Recently, eldrazi with {c}. If you only have 1 spell of that type, you have a 8% failure of having the mana on turn 1 with only 4 lands. Four out of sixty. Seven lands is 95% probability to work.

Here's the problem though. 95% probability to work. Not disagreeing. But you know why? Because the chance of actually drawing that lone splash card is low. So your ultimate result is a low result of failure - not because the card is reliably castable but because it's reliably not-drawable.

And if it's a card that absolutely must be cast early, having a low land count to support it is just going to be epic fail. Anytime you do draw that card, you'll most likely be without mana to cast it. It's a dead card. And you can see that in the link you posted. Just look at the far right of the table. If you had 24 cards instead of 1, your opening hand would fail you 40% of the time (with 7 lands). That's terrible.

Most of the time, you are going to be much better off dropping that single card splash and running another on-color card (unless the single card splash is Recurring Nightmare I guess). It simply isn't worth it in the vast majority of scenarios. I know it seems harmless to toss in that lone splash, but it's not. It's just jacking up your deck's consistency for very little ROI.
 
Here's the problem though. 95% probability to work. Not disagreeing. But you know why? Because the chance of actually drawing that lone splash card is low. So your ultimate result is a low result of failure - not because the card is reliably castable but because it's reliably not-drawable.

And if it's a card that absolutely must be cast early, having a low land count to support it is just going to be epic fail. Anytime you do draw that card, you'll most likely be without mana to cast it. It's a dead card. And you can see that in the link you posted. Just look at the far right of the table. If you had 24 cards instead of 1, your opening hand would fail you 40% of the time (with 7 lands). That's terrible.

Most of the time, you are going to be much better off dropping that single card splash and running another on-color card (unless the single card splash is Recurring Nightmare I guess). It simply isn't worth it in the vast majority of scenarios. I know it seems harmless to toss in that lone splash, but it's not. It's just jacking up your deck's consistency for very little ROI.
First off, usually a splash is for some kind of gain. Colors have weaknesses, and those holes can be filled with other colors. As an example based in previous discussion, the Thought-Knot Seer can provide valuable hand control for some sort of {R}{G}/{G}{W} long-game deck that would otherwise miss it, while also giving them a useful body. So splashing can definitely be a valuable thing to do (to wit: greater than "very little ROI"). I think (hope) the majority of people will agree with me.

I fail to see the basis of your argument, honestly. It seems to be: "Not 100%? Won't work." Yeah, well, that's true of everything in magic. It's also a mega fail when you are playing a tight {U}{R} mana base, and only draw one {U} source the whole game and can't cast half your spells, or when you get mana screwed. Is there a percentage cutoff you've developed in your head for acceptance criteria? Was it in playtesting? It's greater than 95%??

Furthermore, it seems to me that you are simply not understanding what the 95% means, or what the table means in general. It means, 95% of the time, you will be able to cast your single spell. You will have the land before the spell. And not only in the late game, but by the time you'd first need it.
Anytime you do draw that card, you'll most likely be without mana to cast it. It's a dead card.
(Bolding mine) Like, this above statement is just basely false. The article is literally disproving it. Every now and then you will be stuck with the splash in hand (about 5% on 7 sources). Hopefully the drafter's deck is constructed well enough to not fall apart because of this, can make a course correction, and maybe a couple turns later use the splash. Or maybe it will lose. Playing magic opens up that chance no matter what.

Just look at the far right of the table. If you had 24 cards instead of 1, your opening hand would fail you 40% of the time (with 7 lands). That's terrible.
This section only seems to support the supposition that you aren't applying the table correctly. If I was playing 24 {c} cards I'd want to probably make it a major part of my mana base (no longer a splash). Conveniently, the table shows me an acceptable percentage of failure at 16 lands, which is the number a 40 card deck could hold with 24 nonlands already in it. Perfect! In another case, having 3 cards in a splash color is perfectly reasonable for limited. At 3 we see that we want 10 sources for turn 1 mana success. This, if anything, proves that a solid splash should be better supported then a 1-off splash, and a major deck color should be better supported than any splash. Seems MTG 101 to me, tbh.

Long and the short of it is: I see what you are trying to get at, but you seem to be applying what you feel would happen, and how horrible it would feel, along with misapplying information from an article dealing with mathematics. Mathematics that, frankly, aren't on your side.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Ahada is definitely making a relevant point here. Case in point: the chance to draw your one of in a 60 card deck is 12%. Let's go with the 7 sources 5% fail rate. This means that when you draw the splash card you want have the mana source in your had ~5/12 or ~42% of the time. The 88% of the time you don't draw the splash card isn't relevant to this calculation.

Or is it? This fail rate doesn't take into account the other costs involved, including the costs of including those splash land in your deck (including duals with downsides over basics, not including more basics of your non-splash color, not playing color intense cards due to worse mana base, vulnerability to non-basic hate, or in cube the opportunity cost of draft picks). The fail rate only takes into account drawing the card without the splash, but there is also a potential fail rate from drawing the splash land when you need one of you need the one you would have included if you decided not to splash.

Now, you usually don't need to have the mana to cast a given splash card on turn one. Over the course of a long game, having an out you wouldn't otherwise have in your deck is valuable. That's all well and good. There's definitely good reasons to splash. But Ahada's point is still spot on: splashing a card you need to cast early is a major compromise on your deck and generally a bad idea even if you have good mana. You can splash disfigure in your U/G cube deck to kill the opponent's turn 1 elf, but if your deck only has 5 black sources you're not going to be able to kill the elf ~34% of the time even when you draw the disfigure (and sometimes they won't even have the elf when you do have the mana and the disfigure, creating another "fail" circumstance). So the calculation here is some combination of how valuable is killing that turn one elf plus how valuable is having disfigure in my deck when it doesn't kill the turn one elf minus the consistency cost of the splash sources and the opportunity cost of the draft picks involved and value of whatever on color card was cut from the deck to include the splash card.
 
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