Please report back on how this performs! I don't run quite enough graveyard interaction to justify it at the moment, but I'm fascinated by the card and love to imagine scenarios and environments where this is a high pick.
Sets (MID) Innistrad: Midnight Hunt Testing/Includes Thread
- Thread starter ravnic
- Start date
Please report back on how this performs! I don't run quite enough graveyard interaction to justify it at the moment, but I'm fascinated by the card and love to imagine scenarios and environments where this is a high pick.
I'm really surprised to see Geist on the Near Certain list but no mention of Deathbonnet Sprout. I feel like if you want one green one-drop that cares about the graveyard you likely also want the other? I could be wrong.
i think it’s just harder to trigger Geist than Sprout personally, i’m on Sprout but not Geist myself
I don’t run DFCs
That is a totally reasonable reason. I am not disciplined enough to not do so (Turntimber Symbiosis opens the door for Kazandu Mammoth and so on...) but I can't blame you!
Testing from the pre-release and initial drafts on MTGA confirms pretty my expectations from the set, giving me a dangerous sense of validation that will surely go to my head.
Trying to cube next weekend so I hurriedly bought some of the "in-hand" cards on eBay from reputable sellers for a small premium on cards that I didn't think were overpriced, and between the 14 or so cards I was most interested in that I obtained at the pre-release between a friend and myself, I'm pretty stoked. The lands look even better than expected in person, even if the quality control for them leaves something to be desired (see: lands that I opened vs a friend):
Apparently the right ones have too much ink on them and are the "misprint" according to a Facebook group I posted them in, but the yellow frame on the righthand plains looks more right to me so who knows? I've been seeing lots of misprints for them like an orange-bordered mountain, a blue-bordered swamp, etc. I also opened a whole pack where the top border was 1/3 the length of the bottom border, and the corners were square-ish. Kind of neat, got a
Deathbonnet Sprout over-performed in any deck that cared even a little about the graveyard, and even if the flip condition is rough (it's certainly no Darcy), the card will do a lot to add more of a push towards grindy midrange green decks. It didn't fit my deck at all at the pre-release, but it took me down one game and I saw it a half dozen times wreaking havoc at nearby tables.
I didn't see anyone play Sungold Sentinel correctly their first try, validating my desire to skip out on the word vomit of a reasonable two-drop.
The Decayed zombies feel even less valuable than the best theorycrafting had already exposed them to be. Gisa is still a fun card for inclusion, but certainly a bit lower powered than a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, even if I'd prefer it in my cube all the same.
Sweet cards I'm seriously looking at now that I hadn't considered before (actual inclusion status tbd):
Stupid good set. Lots of fun cards, and cannot believe how lucky we are that there's another graveyard set coming in just two months. The backhalf of 2021 will end up the golden era of cubing at this rate.
And CubeCobra's been busy! The top most popular cards by inclusion rate are still the first-spoiled suite of removal alongside Consider, but I was satisfied with the top 10 all the same, if surprised at The Meathook Massacre's placement (even as a fan of it):
Trying to cube next weekend so I hurriedly bought some of the "in-hand" cards on eBay from reputable sellers for a small premium on cards that I didn't think were overpriced, and between the 14 or so cards I was most interested in that I obtained at the pre-release between a friend and myself, I'm pretty stoked. The lands look even better than expected in person, even if the quality control for them leaves something to be desired (see: lands that I opened vs a friend):
Apparently the right ones have too much ink on them and are the "misprint" according to a Facebook group I posted them in, but the yellow frame on the righthand plains looks more right to me so who knows? I've been seeing lots of misprints for them like an orange-bordered mountain, a blue-bordered swamp, etc. I also opened a whole pack where the top border was 1/3 the length of the bottom border, and the corners were square-ish. Kind of neat, got a
Deathbonnet Sprout over-performed in any deck that cared even a little about the graveyard, and even if the flip condition is rough (it's certainly no Darcy), the card will do a lot to add more of a push towards grindy midrange green decks. It didn't fit my deck at all at the pre-release, but it took me down one game and I saw it a half dozen times wreaking havoc at nearby tables.
I didn't see anyone play Sungold Sentinel correctly their first try, validating my desire to skip out on the word vomit of a reasonable two-drop.
The Decayed zombies feel even less valuable than the best theorycrafting had already exposed them to be. Gisa is still a fun card for inclusion, but certainly a bit lower powered than a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, even if I'd prefer it in my cube all the same.
Sweet cards I'm seriously looking at now that I hadn't considered before (actual inclusion status tbd):
Stupid good set. Lots of fun cards, and cannot believe how lucky we are that there's another graveyard set coming in just two months. The backhalf of 2021 will end up the golden era of cubing at this rate.
And CubeCobra's been busy! The top most popular cards by inclusion rate are still the first-spoiled suite of removal alongside Consider, but I was satisfied with the top 10 all the same, if surprised at The Meathook Massacre's placement (even as a fan of it):
How were people misplaying it? It feels pretty straight-forward to me — then again, I'm mentally lumping together everything in that activated ability as "nerfed protection from a single color".
Also interested to hear how you misplay this.
What level of value did they end up being?
@MilesOfficial
I cannot explain how much I enjoyed reading this. Please do this kind of work again after next set release!
I cannot explain how much I enjoyed reading this. Please do this kind of work again after next set release!
My experience of decayed zombies in MID limited is that they are way more impactful in the retail environment than I expected and probably even less impactful for cube than I expected. In MID limited they are essentially an alternate resource system ala food tokens in Eldraine, treasure in AFR, or even energy in KLD. They are well supported to serve that function in this retail environment (early returns suggest that UB zombies is the S-tier deck) but, even though they do cross-synergize with a wider swath of existing magic cards than, say, energy, they are probably too low impact to make a mark in all but the lowest powered cubes in my opinion.
I guess I'd say that people misplay protection all the time, and that was the core of it here, but really, it was just the word soup issue making it that people forgot various things. I had to correct one opponent who beat me with it twice (for my only match loss) that 1) he needed Coven active to use it, 2) it didn't work on the defense, and 3) the graveyard hate ability did not trigger twice if you activated the second ability twice for attacking. I saw judges called for clarifications two times beyond that with different sets of players as well. This was a pre-release, you expect less enfranchised players than normal, but I'm hesitant to include a card that proved confusing to so many people relative to all other cards.
I don't think it's fundamentally a challenging card to grok, and I was quite impressed with the power level, but it's just too many words that makes for easy mistakes and unnecessary complexity on a 2-drop imo.
We actually had the same experience, then! The decks that had literally any way to exploit them (not literally, though they're A+ fodder for that) were unanimously strong. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they're the best retail limited deck, but I was watching every pre-release game with an eye for cube, and in those contexts, I don't imagine them being terribly meaningful. The comparison to energy seems apt, even if they're inherently less insular, their enablers aren't. Decks that had no synergies / sacrifice / overwhelming quantity just had a 2/2 token that can be ignored more easily than a 1/1, and where they were good, a 1/1 would do just as well 8 times out of 10.
On the Limited Resources podcast, LSV said he'd prefer a 1/1 to them, and I broadly agree, though it's close. I'd rather have 5 decayed zombies than 5 1/1 humans, for example. You can sacrifice them after they've dealt damage but before they decay apart, and that came up in games I played in interesting ways at the pre-release. I'm excited to play Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia but I'm not convinced I'm going to squeeze any other card that makes them in my 720.
The best deck with decayed zombies, though, was the one played by the head judge, who seemed to forget they couldn't block and two different opponents just figured they were understanding the cards wrong, since, yeah, he was the head judge.
Are you sure about that? The only limit on activating Sungold Sentinel's activated ability is "do you have Coven?"
You can totally pay 1W to tell a removal spell to GTFO.
They thought they could block my 4/4 with it and be OK, but it's not quite protection. It was a pre-release so I let them take it back. You can stop removal pointed at it for sure!
Again, it's not necessary complex itself, but it has so many elements to it that it's not surprising that folks who maybe didn't pour over the spoiler like we did got confused.
Based on an extra week of drafting since my last update, as well as a cube draft this weekend (and the conversations about inclusions that come therein), going to me making the following updates:
Katilda, Dawnhart Prime in for Good-Fortune Unicorn
I try not to support easy-to-assemble combos like the Good-Fortune Unicorn plus Persist dude plus free sac outlet, but that's not that easy to assemble and isn't an issue. That said, the Unicorn's short time in my cube is mostly about the other cards in Selesnya - I just like them better. And after going 7-x in every draft where I've pulled a Katilda, I knew I needed her in cube. Even if only half of your creatures are humans, it's obscene how fast she can ramp you, and the +1/+1 counters are no joke and not hard to get online early. Not thrilled about the trinket werewolf text, but at least it makes her spooooooky.
After reading all the positive feedback for a Wx Humans subtheme and taking a critical look at my cube list, I can actually support the subtheme, even at 720 cards. With 93 humans prior to the latest update, that's about 27% of my creatures, and they over-index in white, making up just over half of my white critters. Like I said before, you really only need that 50% of your draft deck to be human to get explosive games out of Katilda, but the same is also true for Champion of the Perish and Thalia's Lieutenant, who will be joining cube based on the speed of the mail.
---
Dennick, Pious Apprentice in for Supreme Verdict
We've added enough 4 MV wraths to single color slots that having a particularly hard to cast one taking up an Azorious slot is unhelpful. This is painful, to be sure -- I adore Supreme Verdict, got my best Standard finish off it (top 4 of a 1k event!), but I have to concede that the uncounterable element is not only unhelpful to 95% of players who cast it, but is a generally bad mechanic to have in cube. Things should have outs! I don't mind the occasional uncounterable beater, but wraths are a symmetrical effect to begin with, and the feelbad of the uncounterable clause doesn't really contribute anything to cube and, at 720 cards, doesn't really contribute to strategic gameplay in a reasonable fashion.
After reading that, you're probably wondering how I justify Geist of Saint Traft, eh? So would I! I've always said the hexproof on the Geist isn't fundamentally oppressive because you can just block its feeble bear-sized body, but equipment is a real thing. Also, nostalgia is real, and my desire to push the UW tempo decks as hard as possible...hence Dennick joining the fray. Being able to cast Dennick from my graveyard as an equally good card is just insane, I wish we had at least one more Disrurb card at this level. Devoted Grafkeeper would be a slam dunk if it didn't take a gold slot in either of the colors it has, even with a CC mana cost. Too bad this mechanic isn't returning for the next set and is unlikely to be included in the Spirits commander deck too.
---
Contortionist Troupe in for Stunted Growth
Our cube doesn't have all that many +1/+1 counter synergies, so although I saw the obvious power here, I didn't think simply adding a +1/+1 counter was quite good enough, but after drafting quite a bit with Contortionist Troupe, I've changed my tune. This is essentially a Luminarch Aspirant that asks you to not miss plays. While it'll be uncommon that Troupe is quite as explosive as the Aspirant, who triggers at combat instead of EOT and doesn't even need you to have a second creature, so long as you have two other creatures, Troupe will likely be able to generate the same snowball effect, and the scalability of the card means you can get a 5 MV 4/4 when you need a sizable blocker right away too. The advantage of this becoming an obvious must-kill while placing value that survives the creature in the form of +1/+1 counters on other creatures is not unique to the Troupe, but it's certainly welcome here.
Honestly, Luminarch Aspirant is at the top end for how strong I'd like a 2-drop to be, so the fact that Troupe can do a fine impression of the card but needs a bit more work is almost upside. The biggest challenge this card will have is convincing my drafters who haven't been drafting Midnight Hunt to pick it up.
On the flip side, getting rid of pet cards is never easy, but the Gx aggro decks of my cube's early days are not what they once were. Stunted Growth is still undeniably powerful in the right deck, but it's also oppressive and not terribly fun, and, unlike its cousin Plow Under, not quite as obvious for what its purpose is -- though I do attribute a large part of that to its legibility. Stunted Growth is a great way to push a Green aggro strategy, sure, but that only works when people actually pick it, and it's been mucking up the back of the packs without exception. Can't really say that's much of a surprise when only one archetype is interested in it, and that's also not the most common archetype in the first place.
---
Additionally, I'm now fully convinced I want to include Liesa, Forgotten Archangel, which should've been more obvious to me ahead of time considering the near ten years I ran my pet card Lifeline, but I'm struggling with a cut. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the most suspect of my Orzhov section considering the increased strength of white and black 4-drops in recent years, but I'm honestly still satisfied with him and, for the first time, my Orzhov section as a whole. But I seriously love Liesa too -- any thoughts will be greatly appreciated here, as she may not be as obvious with the themes she supports, but fits in very well with our typical WB midrange strategies.
I'll still be keeping an eye on the other cards I identified last week, particularly Ambitious Farmhand and Search Party Captain, but I haven't been able to identify reasonable swaps for them, particularly with the white creatures from previous Innistrad excursions joining our list as mentioned above.
Katilda, Dawnhart Prime in for Good-Fortune Unicorn
I try not to support easy-to-assemble combos like the Good-Fortune Unicorn plus Persist dude plus free sac outlet, but that's not that easy to assemble and isn't an issue. That said, the Unicorn's short time in my cube is mostly about the other cards in Selesnya - I just like them better. And after going 7-x in every draft where I've pulled a Katilda, I knew I needed her in cube. Even if only half of your creatures are humans, it's obscene how fast she can ramp you, and the +1/+1 counters are no joke and not hard to get online early. Not thrilled about the trinket werewolf text, but at least it makes her spooooooky.
After reading all the positive feedback for a Wx Humans subtheme and taking a critical look at my cube list, I can actually support the subtheme, even at 720 cards. With 93 humans prior to the latest update, that's about 27% of my creatures, and they over-index in white, making up just over half of my white critters. Like I said before, you really only need that 50% of your draft deck to be human to get explosive games out of Katilda, but the same is also true for Champion of the Perish and Thalia's Lieutenant, who will be joining cube based on the speed of the mail.
---
Dennick, Pious Apprentice in for Supreme Verdict
We've added enough 4 MV wraths to single color slots that having a particularly hard to cast one taking up an Azorious slot is unhelpful. This is painful, to be sure -- I adore Supreme Verdict, got my best Standard finish off it (top 4 of a 1k event!), but I have to concede that the uncounterable element is not only unhelpful to 95% of players who cast it, but is a generally bad mechanic to have in cube. Things should have outs! I don't mind the occasional uncounterable beater, but wraths are a symmetrical effect to begin with, and the feelbad of the uncounterable clause doesn't really contribute anything to cube and, at 720 cards, doesn't really contribute to strategic gameplay in a reasonable fashion.
After reading that, you're probably wondering how I justify Geist of Saint Traft, eh? So would I! I've always said the hexproof on the Geist isn't fundamentally oppressive because you can just block its feeble bear-sized body, but equipment is a real thing. Also, nostalgia is real, and my desire to push the UW tempo decks as hard as possible...hence Dennick joining the fray. Being able to cast Dennick from my graveyard as an equally good card is just insane, I wish we had at least one more Disrurb card at this level. Devoted Grafkeeper would be a slam dunk if it didn't take a gold slot in either of the colors it has, even with a CC mana cost. Too bad this mechanic isn't returning for the next set and is unlikely to be included in the Spirits commander deck too.
---
Contortionist Troupe in for Stunted Growth
Our cube doesn't have all that many +1/+1 counter synergies, so although I saw the obvious power here, I didn't think simply adding a +1/+1 counter was quite good enough, but after drafting quite a bit with Contortionist Troupe, I've changed my tune. This is essentially a Luminarch Aspirant that asks you to not miss plays. While it'll be uncommon that Troupe is quite as explosive as the Aspirant, who triggers at combat instead of EOT and doesn't even need you to have a second creature, so long as you have two other creatures, Troupe will likely be able to generate the same snowball effect, and the scalability of the card means you can get a 5 MV 4/4 when you need a sizable blocker right away too. The advantage of this becoming an obvious must-kill while placing value that survives the creature in the form of +1/+1 counters on other creatures is not unique to the Troupe, but it's certainly welcome here.
Honestly, Luminarch Aspirant is at the top end for how strong I'd like a 2-drop to be, so the fact that Troupe can do a fine impression of the card but needs a bit more work is almost upside. The biggest challenge this card will have is convincing my drafters who haven't been drafting Midnight Hunt to pick it up.
On the flip side, getting rid of pet cards is never easy, but the Gx aggro decks of my cube's early days are not what they once were. Stunted Growth is still undeniably powerful in the right deck, but it's also oppressive and not terribly fun, and, unlike its cousin Plow Under, not quite as obvious for what its purpose is -- though I do attribute a large part of that to its legibility. Stunted Growth is a great way to push a Green aggro strategy, sure, but that only works when people actually pick it, and it's been mucking up the back of the packs without exception. Can't really say that's much of a surprise when only one archetype is interested in it, and that's also not the most common archetype in the first place.
---
Additionally, I'm now fully convinced I want to include Liesa, Forgotten Archangel, which should've been more obvious to me ahead of time considering the near ten years I ran my pet card Lifeline, but I'm struggling with a cut. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the most suspect of my Orzhov section considering the increased strength of white and black 4-drops in recent years, but I'm honestly still satisfied with him and, for the first time, my Orzhov section as a whole. But I seriously love Liesa too -- any thoughts will be greatly appreciated here, as she may not be as obvious with the themes she supports, but fits in very well with our typical WB midrange strategies.
I'll still be keeping an eye on the other cards I identified last week, particularly Ambitious Farmhand and Search Party Captain, but I haven't been able to identify reasonable swaps for them, particularly with the white creatures from previous Innistrad excursions joining our list as mentioned above.
Pretty Chill set for me, actually:
Including:
Including if I Open:
Testing:
Testing if I Open:
I should note that "Testing" in this context means "Cards I am interested in Testing" more than "Cards I am 100% planning to play at some point," mostly because Scryfall [ ci ] tool integration makes it easier to share all of my interests at once. The cards I am 100% testing are:
Briarbridge Tracker
Candletrap
Jack-O'-Lantern
Sacred Fire.
Of those, I think Cadletrap is the most likely long-term inclusion, it seems like a great removal spell. Jack-O'-Lantern will be 100% staying if I try a new artifact pile archetype. Briarbridge Tracker is probably good enough to see long-term inclusion, but it might not stay. I'm not sure, I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Sacred Fire seems marginally better than the Warleader's Helix I'm running right now- it trades raw damage for flexibility, which is something I like. I might cut something else for it, but Warleader's seems like the best option, again I'm not 100% sure.
Cube link for context.
Including:
Including if I Open:
Testing:
Testing if I Open:
I should note that "Testing" in this context means "Cards I am interested in Testing" more than "Cards I am 100% planning to play at some point," mostly because Scryfall [ ci ] tool integration makes it easier to share all of my interests at once. The cards I am 100% testing are:
Briarbridge Tracker
Candletrap
Jack-O'-Lantern
Sacred Fire.
Of those, I think Cadletrap is the most likely long-term inclusion, it seems like a great removal spell. Jack-O'-Lantern will be 100% staying if I try a new artifact pile archetype. Briarbridge Tracker is probably good enough to see long-term inclusion, but it might not stay. I'm not sure, I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Sacred Fire seems marginally better than the Warleader's Helix I'm running right now- it trades raw damage for flexibility, which is something I like. I might cut something else for it, but Warleader's seems like the best option, again I'm not 100% sure.
Cube link for context.
briarbridge tracker plays great in standard fwiw
Honestly, having played against Tracker in draft and seeing it in action in standard, I'm really impressed with it from a power-level perspective, and it prompts fun draft and deck-building decisions that are pretty reasonable to meet. Gonna start looking for a cut for it myself...just how many MID cards am I adding??
Ah! The big sister of this trio:
I've been enjoying this effect a lot these days in retail limited, and found them totally reasonable Ambush Viper effects that actually get to stick around in most cases. The biggest difference with the Intruder is that the body is something I actually want...and that it costs more than I'd like to leave up for this kind of effect.
I know blue creatures typically aren't much to write home about, but comparing this spirit to Sigrid, God-Favored, who recently got cut from my list...no, actually, that seems about right. I'm pretty ok with a 2/1 flying at the same rate (and easier mana!) than a 2/2 first strike, and if you're early game or have an established board already, the "removal" effect is comparable. In blue no less!
I'm with you on not knowing what to cut, but this card has killed my 7-X dreams on BO1 in Arena enough times that yeah, maybe I should be looking at it too.
I've been enjoying this effect a lot these days in retail limited, and found them totally reasonable Ambush Viper effects that actually get to stick around in most cases. The biggest difference with the Intruder is that the body is something I actually want...and that it costs more than I'd like to leave up for this kind of effect.
I know blue creatures typically aren't much to write home about, but comparing this spirit to Sigrid, God-Favored, who recently got cut from my list...no, actually, that seems about right. I'm pretty ok with a 2/1 flying at the same rate (and easier mana!) than a 2/2 first strike, and if you're early game or have an established board already, the "removal" effect is comparable. In blue no less!
I'm with you on not knowing what to cut, but this card has killed my 7-X dreams on BO1 in Arena enough times that yeah, maybe I should be looking at it too.
I think you forgot someone!
This was my favorite version of this effect so far. The rock solid body (1/3 flying flash for 2 isn't horrible on it's own) in conjunction with the possibility to decrease a creatures power further than any of the other, make for a great card. I've seen this card shrink 5/5s so it's small comrades could take it down without a scratch.
This was my favorite version of this effect so far. The rock solid body (1/3 flying flash for 2 isn't horrible on it's own) in conjunction with the possibility to decrease a creatures power further than any of the other, make for a great card. I've seen this card shrink 5/5s so it's small comrades could take it down without a scratch.
I still hate day/night mechanic.
Ambitious Farmhand feels pretty cool to play with and it's pretty strong as well. To me it feels like a fair middle-powered card.
I have not seen any of the other cards in cube action yet.
Ambitious Farmhand feels pretty cool to play with and it's pretty strong as well. To me it feels like a fair middle-powered card.
I have not seen any of the other cards in cube action yet.