Nanonox's 1vs1 cube

[Nanonox]

I like this aggressive cheat strategy and think it opens the door to cards like these

.

With SFM, Cage and Heights, you have very real ways to use an aggressive high mana value card and not have it be dead. Tinker and Goblin Welder could also be ways to get novel aggressive decks.

 

[Nanonox]

I've been making a list of things that could be improved in the cube, not sure I have all the answers, but at least it will help keep me focused for the insanity that MH3 is bound to be.

- A more consistent Gruul cheat deck. RG should have the tools for a good cheat deck, yet I've found that it rarely comes together because the cheat cards don't necessarily work together. Keep in mind that the cheat targets are artifact creatures for the most part, which rules out Natural Order for example.



Oath of Druids clashes with Goblin Welder meaning that at most you have 3 cheat enablers which is not quite as consistent as I'd like. Some solutions that I am considering



I cut Daretti while on a 3+ mana value cutting spree and it was probably a mistake. In the right deck it allows you to activate on turn 4 which makes it faster than Sneak Attack. The +2 fills the GY, making it a self-contained engine. It's pretty narrow and fragile though.



The Manual is a bit slow for what I have in mind since you need ramp to use it before turn 5. However, the creature sticking around is a big game. Also, being an artifact itself opens the door to being ramped by Workshop which conveniently ramps your artifact fatties itself. I like that Workshop works with noncreatures like Bolas's Citadel and Paradox Engine.

- More White build arounds. I've noticed that compared to other colors, White doesn't have as many compelling build arounds. This leads to some good stuff decks in the color which is fine in small numbers, but not the experience I am trying to curate. Some of those archetype cards are also just generically playable, making the deck less exciting than I would like.



Check out the blink archetype. It's a fun deck, but it just uses good ETB creatures and goes from there. Maybe it's ok to have simple archetypes in an already complex cube, but I'd like some spice to go alongside it for more adventurous drafters. This could be adding some less obvious blink targets like these



Or exploring new themes and build arounds. Erik suggested an aggressive cheat theme in White. That's definitely a cool direction to go in and doesn't ask for a lot of changes and could offer some overlap with Blink and artifact cheat in Red.



A simple option would be finding single card archetypes in White:



7 mana is a lot for the Sun, but it's a really cool build around. It would go well Selesnya ramp decks that could reach 7 mana or Azorius control decks too. Ultimately I think it's too slow, although maybe I need to finally add in Grim Monolith which I've been meaning to do.

I recently cut Cataclysm for being too similar to Balance and I stand by my choice for now.

Absent mono White options, maybe some I can "cheat" and add a few multicolored build arounds featuring White. I'd love some suggestions here as there are a lot of options. I am liking



Dakkon is a rock solid control card that has GY and cheat potential. Removing a single creature per turn isn't overwhelming, the downside obviously being 3 colors. However, it's easily splashable and fits into a White deck that already exists.

Ghired is particularly appealing because of how crazy the ceiling is. Urza's Saga tokens are probably the best things to copy and they feed off each other. Blade Splicer type cards are great since they both provide a body to tap and create a token to copy.

Caesar has an impressive list of options to chose from. It triggers off of any attack which is an ability I've been liking on Inti and Anim Pakal. However, I'm not sure I really need a Mardu card to promote either WR or WB aggro decks. These have been doing just fine!

- Bolstering Gravecrawler or cutting it altogether.



I love what Gravecrawler brings to the table because of its upsides. It's as cheap as it gets to recur it and it counts as a cast trigger for various effects. I don't love the limited amount of zombies in the cube to support it though! So either up the amount (so far one MH3 spoiler is perfect for this) or embrace less efficient options that are likely still good enough.

- Red Storm! OTJ has some really sweet spell velocity payoffs that has me wanting to add them.



These add some serious firepower to Red-based spell decks and complement either the more aggressive cards (DRC, Monastery Swiftspear, Magmatic Channeler, ...) or the more all in Storm decks (Underworld Breach, Wheel of Fortune).

I posted Fireblast, but it could also be a less all in burn spell. Sometimes I wish I had an extra cheap one like Burst Lightning or Chain Lightning to add reach and a win condition alongside Breach.

Once again, Grim Monolith is very appealing to help cast a 6 drop or maybe even Seething Song, though I don't really support a "Big Red" deck.

I am also considering Pyrokinesis as a free spell to help the slower decks and go off during a storm turn.

Edit: Stoke the Flames might be the free burn spell I want especially if I want more tokens in Red.

- More Red token producers. I've found that a lot of my aristocrat decks tend to be Black or Orzhov, but not very often Rakdos. I have decent sacrifice outlets in Red, but am limited in the fodder department. I like these cards



With the addition of Legion Extruder, I think the artifact sacrifice token route is becoming real and actually interesting. Demolition pulls double duty as removal or fodder.
Gut has proven to be a house. It's a 2/2 for 3 so definitely vulnerable, but the payoff is pretty huge and he can snowball. The fact that it's a one card win condition probably turns me off it unfortunately.
Krenko hits a lot of right notes for me and the 3/3 haste baseline is totally legit. It hints a little too much at Goblins being a thing for me right now, but it has potential.

Squee and Sokenzan are the most generically playable and I think I want to play at least one of them.

There are definitely more issues with the cube, but so far these are the holes I am looking to patch before the release of MH3.

 

[Erik Twice]

Fireblast will always go to the face. Dealing a massive 4 points it's so good that it will always be played that way, regardless of any other synergy.

I'm told, however, that Mine Collapse is solid and playable.

I also have the same issue with my cheat decks. In fact, Sneak Attacks seems kind of awful now.

I also ended up cutting Squee. Being a 2/2 made it too hard for it to go in.

 

[Nanonox]

Fireblast will always go to the face. Dealing a massive 4 points it's so good that it will always be played that way, regardless of any other synergy.

I get that. I am thinking it would go well in a deck like this



You get the idea. A "storm" aggro/burn deck with a lot of reach.

I'm told, however, that Mine Collapse is solid and playable.

I considered Mine Collapse, but I want something that can go face. I think I would play Pyrokinesis before the Collapse.

I also ended up cutting Squee. Being a 2/2 made it too hard for it to go in.

What did you replace it with? Another token maker or something else entirely?

 

[Erik Twice]

What did you replace it with? Another token maker or something else entirely?

I tried back and forth and, in the end, I replaced it with nothing.

As an aggressive card, I could have replaced it with Goblin Rabblemaster, but I didn't feel the need to push for that kind of decks so I didn't. And, when it comes to synergy, I found that other cards (or colours) were more useful. When you can choose between Young Pyromancer, Seasoned Pyromancer, Retrofitter Foundry, Gravecrawler, Adeline etc, you don't need a pure token maker as much.

 

[Nanonox]

Time for a little spring cleaning before MH3 fully spoils. I've singled out cards that I am not super keen about in the cube and thought I'd discuss why I am very open to cutting them.



I love land cyclers in the cube to smooth draws and turbo charge fair(ish) reanimator. In addition to my 50 fixing lands, I like the idea of having an extra 5 cyclers. In White, rather than play Eagles of the North, I opted for Timeless Dragon. I wanted the Angel for some Welder/Reanimator/Tinker shenanigans, but it rarely comes up. So I am happy keeping the Dragon, cutting the Angel and am seriously considering a 4th artifact fatty (Ancient Stone Idol or Kaldra Compleat being the forerunners) and some extra cheat support (Daretti, Scrap Savant).



I can't quite put my finger on why, but I am not a fan of the card. It works as wrath protection, has sacrifice and counter synergies and makes tokens, all of which my cube is interested in. It might just be the limited +1/+1 counter support that limits it's broad appeal. I'll probably end up cutting it and adding it in a later update when more incidental counters will be in the cube.



White can play a part in the sacrifice decks, but not nearly as well as Black. This means that the decks wanting the Reliquary are too few and far between. I'll be reverting to Portable Hole, Winds of Abandon, Prismatic Ending or another cheap removal spell.



I am not in need for more 2 drop aggro artifact cards, which is the main reason the Canonist is on the list. It is however uniquely annoying and for that alone I like it. I will note that as the cube gets more centered around artifacts, the Canonist gets a little worse since more decks can play around it.



Free spells are fantastic, but this one has limited uses because of the tempo hit you take from cheating it out. Right now, Fastbond and Paradox Engine are the main cards that it goes off with. There are synergy possibilities with Chrome Host Seedshark, Balance and various landfall spells. I am thinking a good old regular cantrip would be a better use of the slot.

I would probably want Doomsday, Mystic Sanctuary, Arclight Phoenix and possibly others to fully support Gush.



TitI has been in the cube since the beginning as a more controlling spells matter card that could eventually win the game. Since then, the printing of Chrome Host Seedshark and Geralf, the Fleshwright has given us other spells matter cards that are not only more open-ended, but also not as all in. Plus, this lets me cut a DFC which is a plus!



Newly printed Warren Soultrader and Marionette Apprentice change sacrifice decks in a big way IMO. Trading creatures for Treasures is huge especially when stapled to a relevant body. While Woe Strider might not be the actual cut because of how good of a glue card it is, there’s probably one sacrifice outlet that can go.



With the cube speeding up, there are more and more blockers and less turns to eek out value from the Courier. I do value the effect of an artifact card that can tie into discard though and can see myself jumping to Voldaren Epicure or another new design.



The Berserker experiment was fine, but not very conclusive. It’s a tough deck to get into and as a result wasn’t drafted very often. I’ll use these slots to bolster some existing themes in Red (cheat, tokens, sacrifice) or some new ones from MH3.



An ok but not super exciting spells payoff card. I’d rather include splashier cards for an archetype than replaceable ones.



See Champion. I am debating keeping Phyrexian Dragon Engine because of how well it plays with Welder, Engineer, Helping Hand, Reanimate and friends. Ultimately, I’ll figure out a less fragile card for that role I’m sure.



Too much mana for the tutor effect. It’s nice that it hits GYs, but the inefficiency is too much. The new Pod variant, Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling or another tutor might still be in the books though.



I don’t want 6 drops that aren’t super explosive. I’d rather win with the lands deck using Aftermath Analyst + Valakut Exploration or something instead.



Speaking of inefficient, I am off the Hydra right now. A 2/3 for 4 that takes out a small dude isn’t what I am going for. Green is super limited in creature removal in my cube, maybe I should just embrace that and focus on its strength: removing non creature permanents.



Not that this is bad, just that I am really considering Grim Monolith. I’ve cut most of my 2 MV mana rocks and I don’t miss them all that much. There are some cool lines you can take with the Torque which is why I haven't cut it yet, but its slot is up for the takes.



This falls on the fair side of the cube again and that’s not where my design philosophy is taking me right now. This is a very strong equipment that turns any idiot into a threat and has outs as a sacrifice outlet. I will probably keep the Wargear, but it should live in fear, nothing is safe!

Did I miss any from my list? Am I crazy to cut some of these staples? Let me know!

 

[inscho]

I think most of the cuts are reasonable.

I still like Angel of the Ruins in an artifact heavy environment. Exiling 2 on ETB is pretty substantial. Timeless Dragon is okay, but it was rarely a card my decks wanted. It fits in everything, but often gets squeezed out when optimizing a deck build.

I never really cared for Basri. I think I'd prefer Luminous Broodmoth or Selfless Spirit if I wanted wrath protection.

I recently subbed out Dusk Rose Reliquary for Portable Hole. The hoop to jump through negates the low mana cost. Hole is just cleaner and more pleasant to play with.

I still like Ethersworn Canonist as a tutorable silver bullet (oswald, fiddlebender, birthing pod, etc). As the mana curve in my cube lowers and the emphasis on spell velocity increases I find it still has game. I really like it with blue for its flash creatures and counterspells. I think it's a fine cut. It's not untouchable.

Gush is cute and fun, it aids combo and has a lot of novel interactions. I liked it less when I ran one set of shocks. It's a boss in Simic Turboland. I like it a little more than Snap. I'm strongly considering bringing back Crow Storm, so I'm looking to keep my free spells.

I haven't liked Thing in the Ice in a long time. Easy cut imo.

Woe Strider....don't totally hate the cut...3 mana sac outlets aren't the greatest, but I really value the self-recursion for my mill-heavy sacrifice decks. Soultrader hasn't struck my interest yet.

I think Bomat Courier is still worth rostering. It can really exploit a slow start by your opponent. It allows you to be more aggressive with your removal, because each attack it survives is an additional exiled card. It's often easy to draw 2-3+ cards off of this which is a lot for a one drop. You can sacrifice before combat damage to "cycle" if it's a dead late game draw. Forces your opponent to block it over something larger, and you can still sac to nets cards. Having an artifact body is often more valuable than creating an artifact token.

Death Greeter's Champion would be a house in a lower powered iteration of my cube. I never really warmed up to this, and I've cust almost all Berserker cards.

Hearth Elemental seems fun. I've considered a few times, but there always seemed to be more important cards to roster over it.

Lizard Blades is a cool support card, but pretty underwhelming on it's own. My aggro decks pivoted in a different direction.

Finale of Devastation is a little slow, but pretty versatile. Being able to tutor or recur a Thassa's Oracle/Yawgmoth, Thran Physician to win a game, or occasionally dump mana into from a Gaea's Cradle, pushes it over the top of other options for me. It's one of the few cards I have in green that can win the game when you have access to infinite mana. So the utility plus fringe wincon keeps it in my list.

Primeval Titan got replaced by Old One Eye...I really only like it if you are supporting Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle or Dark Depths. The titan often feels a bit winmore in the absenece of those game-winning tutor targets.

Voracious Hydra is a fine cut. I hate most of green's creature removal options, and I find it the best option for my cube. Mawloc is better. I really enjoy the midrange Gruul deck that runs mana elves and 2 for 1 fatties like Fury, Mawloc, and Hydra...I also like it with Wildfire.

Liquimetal Torque is cute with a lot of fun card interactions, but it's not the most powerful. If I wanted to run more serious artifact mana rocks, it'd probably get squeezed out...but I don't so it stays.

Grafted Wargear is a staple for me. I'm not close to cutting it. I do often consider cutting Rancor tho.

 

[Erik Twice]

I know what you mean, because I've either cut those cards or thought about cutting them myself. The only exceptions are Boumat Courier, Ethersworn Canonist and Liquimetal Torque. The thought of cutting them has never crossed my mind.

The issue for the rest is that I don't see a good replacement. There aren't many good green 4-drops, for example. Or any compelling white and green fatties. Or at least, any I would like to run.

 

[Nanonox]

Thanks for sharing your takes. Again, this isn’t me cutting everything listed, just noticing that the cards aren’t perfect for the cube’s goals.

I still like Angel of the Ruins in an artifact heavy environment. Exiling 2 on ETB is pretty substantial. Timeless Dragon is okay, but it was rarely a card my decks wanted. It fits in everything, but often gets squeezed out when optimizing a deck build.

I've liked the Dragon in Esper or Jeskai control lists where you get to hit your land drop early and late game you can usually find a spot to get a 2 for 1 from your Dragon. Maybe Tithe or Land Tax are the better land smoothing choices, but I love me a dragon.

Angel is alright, but it will be hard to play if you don't specifically have a way to cheat it out. Though it really shines in those builds as self-binning reanimation targets are fantastic.

I guess it comes down to me wanting to support more controlling decks more than cheat decks right now.

It's a boss in Simic Turboland. I like it a little more than Snap. I'm strongly considering bringing back Crow Storm, so I'm looking to keep my free spells.

I always forget about the Crows! Probably better than Elemental Eruption that I was considering. I find that Simic has plenty of ways to combo off, be it with Draw 7s and Fastbond, Oath and Oracle, Regrowth + Brain Freeze, Urza and Earthcraft, … So Gush being mostly good in this color combination feels like overkill (snap include at 450 or higher though).

I’m in the opposite camp where I like Snap more because it impacts the board and has outs to netting mana with Cradle, Academy and Lotus Field. Mana usually being the bottleneck in combo decks.

I think Bomat Courier is still worth rostering.

I agree, it’s a powerful one drop with lots of applications. I am just identifying it as a card that isn’t uncuttable. I would cut Monastery Swiftspear before it (which I forgot to list).

Finale of Devastation is a little slow, but pretty versatile. Being able to tutor or recur a Thassa's Oracle

Have to admit I forgot about this interaction, which I value quite a bit. Probably enough so that it edges out other tutors out.

Voracious Hydra is a fine cut. I hate most of green's creature removal options, and I find it the best option for my cube. Mawloc is better. I really enjoy the midrange Gruul deck that runs mana elves and 2 for 1 fatties like Fury, Mawloc, and Hydra...I also like it with Wildfire.

I added Jadelight Spelunker, which I like more than the hydra. Filling the GY and offering card selection is nice. That said, it’s not a lock either.

Grafted Wargear is a staple for me. I'm not close to cutting it. I do often consider cutting Rancor tho

My only issue is how fair it is in a cube that is self-proclaimed explosive. Though if I am cutting a sacrifice outlet, I would keep the Wargear as a sneaky backup.

The issue for the rest is that I don't see a good replacement. There aren't many good green 4-drops, for example. Or any compelling white and green fatties. Or at least, any I would like to run.

For me, that’s the easy part. If I don’t like Green’s 4s, I’ll just run a 3 that I like for example.

Edit: forgot to list Showdown of the Skalds. With Phlage coming in for Big Boros, the Showdown feels less necessary.

 

[Nanonox]

Decided to try the inscho challenge of listing 4 archetypes for each of the 10 guilds. I'll be listing 5 cards for each archetype hopefully showcasing what it is about.



Earthcraft: Generate mana with artifacts or creatures and win with excess mana.



Cheat: Cheat in artifact fatties, pretty straight forward.



Turbo mill: You mill yourself until you hit your win condition. Sub in Jace, the Perfected Mind for Nexus of Fate and you have a mill deck instead!



Grindy self-mill: Fill the GY and win with a grindy gameplan.



Discard aggro: Discard cards for extra damage and threats to close the game quickly.



Storm: Combo off with draw 7s by hitting land drops and chaining spells.



So I got to five archetypes pretty easily, feel like I could list a few more like lands matter. This confirms my feeling that Gush might not be needed since it's at its best in Simic and the guild is already filled with potential decks.



Discard aggro/tempo: Discard cards for value while beating down.



Spells matters tokens: Generate tokens by casting your spells and gain value by beating down or using them for cards or mana.



Cheat: Cheat in artifact fatties, pretty straight forward.



Grindy artifacts: gain value by sacrificing your artifacts to various effects. I tried to find another Blue card to signal the deck and didn't find a compelling one.



Storm: Combo off with one of the best engines/win conditions in the cube (LED, Breach and Brain Freeze)



Spells matter control: Use cheap spells to clear the board and control the game. I was trying to find another Blue win condition for this deck and fell short.



Izzet also has a wealth of archetypes and this isn't even listing the overlaps. I did notice a couple of holes while fleshing out the decks, notably a grindy artifact card and a control win condition. Any suggestions?

I'll be trying out the other guilds as I find time.

 

[inscho]

So for Simic, I would view the creature based dredge and discard deck as one archetype. They have a couple different mechanics but are functionally the same deck, and I find there isn’t enough density of both for them to be uniquely independent

Is there enough density for a dedicated Simic storm deck? I include a lot of what you have included as storm, cheat, and turbomill under the umbrella Turboland: oath into aftermath with nexus combo….fastbond and draw sevens…it either dumps out a big critter or combos out

Basically a modern interpretation on zvi’s Turboland:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9173&d=252485&f=EX

I also lump the izzet artifact decks into one pile. It can be heavier on the trinkets/value or heavier on cheat, but tinker, welder, and engineer are the connective pieces that want to play with baubles, but also put something big and dumb into play.

Not that you should do the same, but that’s just how I approach it. Within and between each archetype is lots of variation and overlap. There’s a lot more than 4 decks for each guild

 

[Nanonox]

Well the goal of the exercise was to try your approach, so I’ll keep that in mind. I went too specific with certain archetypes.

Simic Storm is usually accompanied by a Black or Red splash, so yeah, might be generous separating it.



Could this be the control + artifact card I am looking for? With a few choice additions that I cut but still enjoy, like Metamorph, Golos, Twinshot Sniper and others you can create a huge army for little cost.

 

[inscho]

Simic Storm is usually accompanied by a Black or Red splash, so yeah, might be generous separating it.

I like organizing by guild because it easy to see the intersecting plans of something like Simic Turboland and Izzet Storm without spelling it out for your drafters. The guild archetypes are both blue dominant with secondary facilitators in red and green and use many of the same blue cards.

(An aside, with the four archetypes per guild architecture: I try to have two archetypes weighted in one color and two weighted in the other…the dominant color is often the pivot point into complimentary strategies in other colors. Emphasis on *try*….its pretty hard to balance this)

In the end, it’s a bit of a forced exercise to try and identify the proper distribution of effects, identify gaps in the synergy matrix, and get gears turning for yourself and your drafters. Our premium mana bases will almost always incentivize splashes, and those splashes can radically change how a deck operates….you may never see a truly Simic Turboland deck, but that’s not really the point of the 40 archetype exercise for me

 

[Schafkurai]

Could this be the control + artifact card I am looking for? With a few choice additions that I cut but still enjoy, like Metamorph, Golos, Twinshot Sniper and others you can create a huge army for little cost.

It's definitely potent! Especially since the tokens are not tied to a cast trigger but work with welders and reanimation as well.

I dismissed it for my cube because I only have a handful of MV 3+ colorless artifacts. Blue has 2 more and each color has another 3-5. Not sure this is enough support..

A card my drafters have liked a lot is this one:
.
It might be too slow for your cube but it is welder fodder, self mill and card advantage in a tidy little package. The "ultimate" can also do work.

EDIT: this falls more into the glue than finisher territory but it can have a little bit of finisher to it.

 

[Dom Harvey]

The Cube seems to be in a fantastic place! I'm curious what you'd try if power cap wasn't a concern (or people didn't mind a higher power differential between the outliers and the 'average' card) and if you had to expand the Cube to 450/540

 

[Nanonox]

A card my drafters have liked a lot is this one:

.
It might be too slow for your cube but it is welder fodder, self mill and card advantage in a tidy little package. The "ultimate" can also do work.

Definitely one of the many cards that I didn’t know existed. It is cool, but yeah, maybe a little slow. The main difference with the Synthesizer is that this one doesn’t affect the board, making it tough to justify.

I dismissed it for my cube because I only have a handful of MV 3+ colorless artifacts. Blue has 2 more and each color has another 3-5. Not sure this is enough support..

Same here. Saw it, thought “neat!”, but not enough support and moved on. Now I kind of want to support it though

The Cube seems to be in a fantastic place! I'm curious what you'd try if power cap wasn't a concern (or people didn't mind a higher power differential between the outliers and the 'average' card) and if you had to expand the Cube to 450/540

Thanks for the praise!

Cards I have so far excluded as power outliers fall into a few categories.

Fast mana: Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Ancient Tomb

Non-interactive threats: Kappa Cannoneer

Powerful threats: Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Gut, True-Soul Zealot, Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, The One Ring, Recurring Nightmare (debatable, I'm not sure it would even be busted right now, but repetitive play patters and stuff), Ajani, Nacatl Pariah, Barrowgoyf, Pyrogoyf

Pushed interaction: Swords to Plowshares, Thoughtseize, Mother of Runes, Pest Infestation

Cantrips: Ponder, Preordain

I don’t think I would add stuff like Oko, Thief of Crowns, Minc & Boo, Timeless Heros or Broadside Bombardiers though. These offer interaction as well as snowball pressure which is going to drown out the synergy.

It’s not my jam, but Leovold and Narset could work to make draw 7s even more reliable while being good even without them. Not a fan of the non-games they create. Same thing with Strip Mine and Hymn to Tourach. They would fit and be amazing, but not conducive to the gameplay I want.

---

As for expanding the cube, I think it could be done pretty easily to 450, but at 540 you would probably need to make more sweeping changes (or maybe break singleton for non-fixing cards).

- Another set of fixing lands (likely a third set of fetches and maybe another set of shocks).

- Cool cards that I don't have the space for (Mishra's Workshop, Squandered Ressources, Emperor of Bones, Irencrag Pyromancer...)

- In the same vein, more 2 and 3 color cards (Dakkon, Shadow Slayer, Jan Jansen, Chaos Crafter, Brenard, Ginger Sculptor, ...)

- More "free" spells to keep the density high enough (Prized Amalgam, Wonder, Burning-Tree Emissary, Jeweled Amulet)

- More utility lands (Shatterskull Smashing, Emeria's Call, Mishra's Factory, ...)

- Additional mana disruption/tempo cards (Sinkhole, Tishana's Tidebender, Standstill, Lodestone Golem)

As for archetypes, depending on space, I like all of these

- Humans (focus on +1/+1 counters, artifacts and Berserkers with Théoden, King of Rohan)
- Additional +1/+1 counter stuff (Reyhan, Animation Module, Persist combo?)
- Big Red with ties into Storm (Seething Song, Elemental Eruption, Birgi, God of Storytelling and a cool planeswalker to fit with Storm)
- Berserkers (most of the stuff I added then cut again)
- More land sacrifice stuff (Squandered Ressources, Orcish Lumberjack, Lake of the Dead, ...)
- 5 color Boros (Prismatic Ending, Kaleidoscorch, General Ferrous Rokiric, Hero of Precinct One)

I probably forgot a bunch of cards, but at first glance this is a good start!

 

[Nanonox]

Kind of dreading this guild as I know it to be functional, but light on fancy synergy. I am also unhappy with most UW cards, meaning I don't have clear signposts or unique build arounds.

Control: Counters, planeswalkers, wraths and card draw. More of a macro archetype, but hey, it's a pillar of Magic and I want it represented here. Sometimes you get spicy with Balance, an ETB package or artifact matter cards, but it's the same classic idea.



Tempo: An aggressive leaning deck that wants to stick a threat and protect it while disrupting the opponent. Once again more of a macro archetype. There is a mana denial theme in here with White cards taxing you and Blue counterspells asking you to pay mana.



Artifacts: There is a good amount of recursion and tutoring available to White, making it a good pairing with the mana produced by the Blue decks. I am once again lacking in a clear Blue artifact payoff for that grindy strategy.



And that is basically it! There are blink packages that slot into various archetypes, but I don't know that I'd call them an archetype. There is a beginning of a spells matter and token theme though, which might be worth exploring. White's strength is with token payoffs and Blue is great at making tokens through spell velocity.



We have tokens, we just need payoffs to make them pop. Some cards that I've been trying to make work:



The Lightscribe especially can lead to huge damage output in the right deck. Magecraft works very nicely with Storm since it triggers off the copies. I am missing a few proactive White spells to make it more reliable, two that I like are Virtue of Loyalty and Faerie Guidemother. I could also slot in Tithe instead of the Timeless Dragon or Angel of the Ruins.

The Squadron is pretty straight forward, you put counters and you have a late game mana sink.

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Storm: This archetype is solidly part of the Dimir color combination. Some decks are more about controlling the game and going for a big turn, others are more all in. With the addition of Crow Storm and Warren Soultrader, I am sure I'll get some token variants that use Sedgemoor Witch and Geralf, the Fleshwright as engines.



Artifacts: If you manage to draft enough Baubles and cheap artifacts, you can put recursive effects to good use. There is once again some missing elements to take this to the next level and I'll try to address it at the end.



Discard: This is a great archetype because it can slide between aggressive and controlling builds depending on what you open. You also have the reanimator deck that can go unfair.



Once again, I strike out a 3 archetypes for Dimir. Granted, Storm and Discard are very expansive. For example, I am including self-mill under the Discard banner.

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Those are all 4 Blue guilds. This was a great exercise because it helped me notice that most of them suffered from missing an artifact piece for grindier decks. I've found two options I like so far, each has merit and downsides:

1. Simulacrum Synthesizer is going to do work (with a few modifications). Blink effects and stuff like Sevinne's Reclamation and Goblin Welder will be sure to trigger it many times. These are my top 4 enablers that I can think of right now.



There is also a consideration for Phyrexian Fleshgorger and Steel Seraph as ways to bolster my artifact fatties and blink targets while triggering the Synthesizer. They seem a bit too fair for what the goals of the cube are though.

2. Dimir and Azorius are struggling with artifacts? How about



It's base Blue which is perfect and it creates evasive threats. I like that both White and Black have a lot of tutor effects for artifacts making them the right colors for a 2 card combo. What I don't know is, how playable are these two on their own if you don't get the combo. Are they basically duds individually? I can imagine a UB deck using the Foundry to create tokens and recur the artifacts. I can also imagine UW token decks using it. Has anyone tried these?

 

[EzPzJapanezy]

I'm starting to have a crisis where I keep recommending slow, grindy bullshit for your explosive cube lol.

However when I think of Esper Artifacts, grindy games are the first things that come to mind. The two card combo I prefer for the strategy is:



As I feel both individual pieces are stronger in isolation than Thopter Foundry or Sword of the Meek. Not that I have tested ThopterSword in a cube list myself...

I remember steve_man starting a thread over on MTGSalvation about that combo awhile back if you wanted to read his experiences with it.

 

[inscho]

Artifacts: There is a good amount of recursion and tutoring available to White, making it a good pairing with the mana produced by the Blue decks. I am once again lacking in a clear Blue artifact payoff for that grindy strategy.

I think the Azorius artifact deck prefers Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle over Serra Paragon. I might be making that switch in my cube in the newest update. I liked Paragon more as a surrogate Lurrus when I wasn't supporting Companion.

Tameshi is another draw into white.



Teshar, Trawler, and KCI based loops are the core for the combo side of the archetype. From there you can emphasize the different parts of the loop

Whether cast triggers


or death triggers via


It can push more into blink combo with territory with


With creatures that can keep a chain going:



It can also just drop a bunch of artifacts and hit people with large creatures via Cranial Plating and Nettlecyst

I don't think any of these are good without a full suite of moxen, but I'm considering them:

 

[Nanonox]

I'm starting to have a crisis where I keep recommending slow, grindy bullshit for your explosive cube lol.

Keep it coming! I like where your head is at and sometimes the cards themselves don't get there, but the idea behind it gets me thinking. Like here I don't really want Mindslaver in the cube, but I had forgotten about Academy Ruins. I love utility lands and this one can get back some interesting artifacts like Tangle Wire, Memory Jar, Engineered Explosives and a host of others. The main barrier to entry at my size is the opportunity cost. I could be running something slightly more impactful in that slot. But I'll definitely keep it in mind.

I remember steve_man starting a thread over on MTGSalvation about that combo awhile back if you wanted to read his experiences with it.

Checked it out, thanks. The tl;dr is that it's a good combo, but there are no redundant pieces for it making it hit or miss. I imagine my cube is a little more open to the individual pieces because of the various combo cards I run, but it's still probably not enough.

I think the Azorius artifact deck prefers Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle over Serra Paragon.

I can definitely see that. The fact that the Paragon exiles your Baubles and Retrievers is a real pain. What I like about it though is that you can fit it in lands archetype, an artifact deck or a good old creature deck. Teshar is more limited in its applications. It's also super vulnerable. But you know what, I was looking for more White build arounds and this one definitely has my attention. The ceiling is way high and you can be creative in choosing your targets.

Tameshi, Reality Architect is a mystery to me. When I break down what I want to be using her, I always come back to Urza's Saga and Fastbond as the best case scenarios and the rest of the time it's pretty average. I am sure I am undervaluing her, but I can't seem to figure out how to make her fire on all cylinders.

I have considered Displacer Kitten because of how incredible it is in my MP cube. You get some unique decks and synergies that are really fun! Just like Teshar, I am scared of a 4 mana 2/2 with no immediate board presence though.

I don't think any of these are good without a full suite of moxen, but I'm considering them:

Agreed that PO isn't there without Moxen, but I think that Faith's Reward could easily get there if you want to use the slot.
- Nice wrath protection.
- Goes off with Zuran Orb or Greater Gargadon to ramp you or trigger landfall.
- Fun chains with Arcbound Ravager or KCI.
- Could randomly pitch Solitude and get it back for 4 mana.
- Obviously bonkers in aristocrats.

It's won't make it every draft, but I think it opens up unique plays and synergies that are absent in White.

Another set of cards I haven't discussed is



What can I say, I love making big constructs! I think the 2 mana tax isn't crazy on the Engineer considering that the artifacts you generally want to recur are pretty cheap. The Matterweaver is more versatile, but you need an artifact to copy for it to be really worthwhile. Haven't really tested these yet, but I suspect they are playable.

I'll be trying your Teshar recommendation! I am still leaning towards Simulacrum Synthesizer in Blue, but have yet to determine an exact package.

Thanks all for the discussion!

 

[N0oh]

If you're trying Tameshi and Faith's Reward or Second Sunrise, you might want to add Lotus Bloom and go full eggs-archetype (easier now that wizard gently printed Marionette Apprentice).
Bloom and Sunrise also go infinite with Eternal Witness and a sacrifice outlet, fwiw, but I have yet to see it happen.

Edit : I realized that I kinda posted the same 2 years ago : https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/eriks-the-cool-side-of-magic-cube.1995/post-119019 and that I lurk here mainly on your list and Erik's because they inspire me a lot

 

[Nanonox]

Looks like it's your turn to inspire, that is a great package to tie the room together.



Contrary to Thopter/Sword, the individual pieces go into more shells.

Sunrise is a great aristocrat card, kind of like Afterlife Insurance doubling your outlets and triggers. It goes off in lands with Zuran Orb and Greater Gargadon. And as you mentioned, eggs.

I didn’t even think about the Eternal Witness infinite combo, that’s a cool discovery for players to make.

Speaking of combos, I hadn’t realized that Chatterfang, Squirrel General + Warren Soultrader is more or less infinite. I am less keen on this one, seems too easy! I generally like these in Selesnya token decks, so I’ll have to be careful when reevaluating them.

---

Dom's questions about power outliers I would consider has me thinking

->

I've excluded a category of cards that are synergistic, but very snowbally and provide interaction, stuff like Bombardiers, Oko, Minsc & Boo. Bowmasters definitely fits in there and while the draw 7 synergies are cool, if I am being honest they are way too powerful for the commitment of just running 2 good cards.

So I am taking the opportunity to test Emperor which I already liked, but had trouble finding a slot for.

---

A card that I am getting warmer on is



A self-contained one drop build around with a pretty high ceiling. Just on stats alone, this one loves equipments and counters. Later in the game, things can get pretty nuts. In Selesnya you have a ton of targets to copy and reaching Ascend is easy. Blue has a few juicy targets with Constructs and sharks. Red and Black are a little more limited, but Black is decent at gaining life.

Life gain is the limiting factor here as I don't support it at all. Green is actually quite good at gaining incidental life and I know I could make a few swaps for White to do so too. Astrid Peth would probably be on the way back in as foods are both tokens and sources of life gain. Not sure all of this fiddling around is worth it, but the card makes you dream big!

 

[Nanonox]

I like showcasing what I consider cool decks and I just go a sweet one using Second Sunrise as a combo piece.



There is a lot going on here on multiple different axes. The most likely game plan is the Welder/Daretti/Sneak Attack one where you cheat out a big idiot and win from there. You can also control the board with your sweepers and pitch elementals and win with good cards like Fable and Inti.

Where it gets spicy is that Second Sunrise allows for multiple combo kills using different ressources.
- You can sacrifice your lands to Zuran Orb or Greater Gargadon, bring them all back to ramp to your fatties and/or use Valakut Exploration/Felidar Retreat to profit massively
- You can set up sick sacrifice turns with Lotus Field, fetchlands, pitch elementals, Welder, Bauble and the two mentioned above for big value plays.
- You can set up an Altar of Dementia kill pretty easily if you are sacrificing your Phlage or other large creatures twice.

I am happy to see Second Sunrise slot so easily in a big Boros deck and actually have it be an integral piece of the deck rather than a cute gimmick. Granted, my whole cube is built around supporting this nonsense, but still.

So thanks inscho and N0oh for the extra push to confirm the playability of the card!

 

[inscho]

I'm such a big fan of the Boros Blink/Cheat/Weld pile. I hadn't actually considered Second Sunrise's applciation in the deck, but it's an interesting angle to explore. I'd be curious to see how it plays out in practice. I wouldn't normally be interested in running Zuran Orb, Valakut Exploration, and Felidar Retreat in this deck.....I could see this deck working well with Krark-Clan Ironworks and Myr Retriever, Scrap Trawler, etc. KCI alone can ramp out a Sundering Titan. Artifact lands would be a nice connective piece with all of this, but hard to justify the space.

I think Sunrise is beginning to make more sense for unpowered cubes with the introduction of these:



Which are generally more playable than Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar

It still feels a little narrow for my liking, but we are at least getting closer!

 

[Nanonox]

Artifact lands would be a nice connective piece with all of this, but hard to justify the space.

That's a good point I hadn't considered. That would tie artifact sacrifice with the Green land recursion which is pretty novel. I could see one or two, but not that much more because of the space issues you mentioned.

I could see this deck working well with Krark-Clan Ironworks and Myr Retriever, Scrap Trawler, etc

I had the option of going down that route during the draft, but decided to try something a little more wacky with the land sacrifice. To fully pop, the deck above would have loved a Crucible, but I am a little inexperienced at drafting this style of deck. The fact that Boros has at least two avenues for these sacrifice decks is a good sign.

Warren Soultrader: I really think that this dude is the highest impact card for our types of cubes from MH3. It's going to lead to a lot of nonsense thanks to making a Treasure token rather than just giving mana. This gives creature combo decks new avenues to go off from and ties so many themes together.

Also, it didn't click before but in Boros, Phlage + Altar of Dementia is a fine way to fill the GY and puts less pressure on Red to loot and stuff.