General Non-blue card advantage

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Someone made a comment about having difficulty fighting blue's card advantage. Wondering if there are things we can give to other colors.

For my part, my deck really didn't want to see recursive threats. If someone had been hitting me with Hallowed Spiritkeepers and Shambling Remains and that sort of non-sense, it would have been hard to fight.

Another option is to run more discard? Something like Blightning is obviously powerful, but I'd have to have it share some slot with some Rakdos cards, potentially watering down some themes. If somebody has thoughts on...
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
It is hard to tell what you are defining as 'card advantage'. Blue is easy in which, if something draws you more than one card it is producing card advantage. Anything that produces a 2-for-1 is considered card advantage, such as bone shredder. So I decided to look at your polycube and count every card that could (possibly) be a 2-for-1. My vague criteria was anything that when resolved and able to survive a cycle of turns OR dies produces an effect that is equivalent to a card. Also, if there was one card in a polycube 'slot' that produced card advantage I picked one and disregarded the rest (as they wouldn't be seen in the same draft), so this is a max. case scenario.
White: 19 Blue: 17 Black: 21 Red: 14 Green: 17 Colourless: 5 Multi: 16 As you can see the 'card advantage' is spread pretty evenly (except that red sucks). Black is actually in front from this quick look. The only thing that makes blue seem more like a card advantage king is the multicolour section and the fact that I didn't include the brainstorms, thought scour or remand/memory lapse. They aren't technically card advantage, more so than card quality changes. Once you do that and shift the multicoloured cards to each of the colours you end up with these numbers...

White: 19 + 4 = 23
Blue: 17 + 7 (brainstorm+extras) + 9 = 33
Black: 21 + 7 = 28
Red: 14 + 6 = 20
Green: 17 + 7 = 24

So if we didn't include brainstorms then blue and black almost tie and are quite above the other colours. This is why blue/black control always has more cards in hand than you. Though in actuality all colours are actually pretty close. I don't feel that it is much of a problem in your cube Jason. I think someone was a little unhappy with their own draft then a criticism of the cube itself.

These numbers are probably a bit off as some people will define card advantage different to others (probably should have added Hero of Bladehold) but hopefully this was a good enough deconstruction for people to chew over.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Note that red (and other aggro strategies) should have a large chunk of "virtual card advantage", defined as the difference in hand size when you kill them.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Note that red (and other aggro strategies) should have a large chunk of "virtual card advantage", defined as the difference in hand size when you kill them.


I was going to mention that. As the majority of red and whites non card advantage cards were the efficient 1-2 drops for the aggro strategies to use. I just didn't think of calling it virtual card advantage, which is a pretty sweet term.

Card advantage is the pillar of what makes control and midrange decks work. The one who accrues the most card advantage from these decks win. Which is why these decks are generally based around the Blue/Black/Green colours, as they have the best card advantage. Red and white don't have this luxury (most of the time, I am sure you could craft an environment where they get all the card advantage and the others don't so these become the control/midrange colours). So they must do the next best thing and beat you down before you can play your cards to get this 'virtual card advantage'.

There is probably so much depth to how much card advantage each colour requires to create a stable cube environment. However, that is not my forte to delve into and I am sure there are others in this forum that can do posts of way more justice than I could on this topic.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Fighting blue-based control decks is one of life's simple pleasures, in my opinion, and something that hopefully all the other colours can do. Some ideas:

- Planeswalkers are far and away the easiest way to recoup advantage against slow blue decks, which tend to be uniquely ill-equipped to deal even with walkers who can't defend themselves. However, I think we're all wary of just jamming in a pile of planeswalkers and calling it a day.

- Token makers usually spell trouble for control decks, who may be lacking board presence and then are forced to spend a sweeper on it. I'm talking less about midrange, clog-the-ground bombs like Cloudgoat Ranger, though, and more about cheap spells that are suitable for aggro and midrange alike. Among my favourites:



Mayor, especially, is really good when those control decks lack early drops.

- Dudes That Draw Cards are sweet, because they let you worry less about committing troops to the board knowing you'll get a free refill. Edric, Spymaster of Trest is the shining example of this, but I've also been impressed by Tandem Lookout. Gals like Bloodbraid Elf, Eternal Witness, and Den Protector fall into this category too.

- Resilient threats is something I don't need to go into detail about, cause everyone here is well versed on that. I will say that this is why I like Doomed Traveler so much, though, as long as you can scare up a single anthem, equipment, or pump effect - make them pay attention to your measly 1/1!

Discard specifically to combat blue control isn't an approach I'm a fan of; most of the cards in this category aren't maindeckable, but more than that, they don't add any board presence. While it might sound good in theory to Mind Rot your opponent and be up on cards, as the aggro deck you're typically more concerned with tempo than with attrition. Mind Rots don't help you close out games, but instead give the blue deck another turn to make land drops and reach critical mass on mana.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member


Pick 3-4, or double up on your favourites?

I've never thought of these as being anti-control measures though (other than Duress). They work pretty well in any deck.
 
This comment was mine. It should be noted that it was based solely on my games versus safra (and that the games were enjoyable). I would like to revisit this comment and all of the below after a good 5-10 drafts of Jason's cube; in my opinion, three matches of gameplay is not enough of an indicator to make changes.

safra versus chris
My deck: #LINK#
Her deck: #LINK#

As this was my first Riptide draft, I'm sure that I valued a lot in the drafting portion incorrectly, but I think that taking Dryad Arbor in the ULD and playing less lands would've helped this deck. I even had a decent amount of card advantage (3 pieces of graveyard hate versus cards looking to glean their advantage from the tombs and about 9 other sources, ranging from 2-for-1s to Phyrexian Arena).​
It is worth noting that I also know that I was playing suboptimally, and perhaps an extra mull would've been beneficial as I never resolved a turn-1 mana creature versus safra (if my recollection is correct). I did mulligan a lot of 7-card hands, though.​

In our games, her deck provided pretty good pressure with early Brainstorm setup and then Treasure Cruise/Fact or Fiction/late Brainstorms kept the gas flowing. I was able to interact positively with Delvers and Dark Confidant but Curse of the Shallow Grave provided a steady stream of pressure while her 1-for-1s buried me. In all midgames(T3-6), I found myself at middling life with a slightly inferior board position, flyers promising additional pain and less cards in hand.

I also believe that Jason's deck would've buried me with Consecrated Sphinx, Jace TMS, Brainstorm, Dig or Sphinx's Rev after his supporting spells alleviated pressure. (I know that Brainstorm isn't card advantage, but the card quality increase due to selection provides a sort of virtual card advantage that is amplified with a shuffle effect.)

Maybe this experience was a combination of mismatched card draw sequencing, a bad matchup pairing or safra's deck coming together to be a monster in the particular draft (I know it was mentioned that rarely would a single player get 3 Brainstorms), but it reinforced past experiences where blue spells with "draw" on them ran away with limited games.

My assumption is thus: given a more-or-less balanced cardpool from a red-zone-interaction and threat-versus-answer design paradigm, decks that do a better job drawing quantity of their interactive cards will win. Blue draw and card selection spells are superior to card advantage in other colors, especially in terms of cards that add quantity/quality to the hand. Properly built decks with blue card advantage/selection will trump properly decks without them. (Additionally, the card advantage from semi-spells, a.k.a. incidental effects or wimpy creatures, is on average much less valuable than a spell drawn from the deck, given time to cast said spell).

(Here is where I get lazy when real research would make a better case.) Hell, there must be a reason that Tidings, Jace's Ingenuity, Divination and such are loved by pros in retail limited environments or a deck like burn can become top-tier when Treasure Cruise was legal in Eternal formats.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
hmmm....there are a few things that I feel should be untangled here.

1. Its important that virtual card advantage, raw card advantage, and library selection not be conflated.
2. There should be an appreciation of the power level of blue's ability to do all of these things holistically versus the other colors.
3. Whether it should be framed in terms of increasing "anti-control" tools or bringing blue draw and manipulation more in line with the rest of the cube.

Looking over the list I think its fair to say that blue has a large qualitative advantage over the other colors in terms of generating raw card advantage and manipulating the library. That will probably be an issue when a non-blue deck and blue deck on similar plans get matched up against one another. In terms of attrition, if there was one thing we should have learned from the TC era of magic, is thats you can't 2 for 1 a guy out of the game when he is drawing three cards off of one spell.

Looking at the two decks in question though, that looks like a tough matchup for Chris. Safra has much better sources of early pressure, and the tempo generating tools to just shut Chris out with certain draws (delver + daze). From Chris' side I would certainty want the mana dork hands to compete with safra's more explosive starts, but his deck mulligans worse than hers, due to the lack of blue draw smoothers on his side.

Even when you get into mid or late game, safra has the virtual card advantage tools to overwhelm Chris' removal, and out attrition him. She can even beat Chris on raw card advantage with fact or fiction.

I think this kind of reinforces a few things we were talking about in the graveyard thread (and I can't help but notice the satyr wayfinder and grisly salvage sitting in the side board). This looks like a somewhat slower deck, that wants to play a grindy game of graveyard attrition, getting matched up against a blue deck that can out tempo it, mulligans better, and is better at generating both virtual and actual card advantage.
 
1. Its important that virtual card advantage, raw card advantage, and library selection not be conflated.

This forum needs a glossary of important terms. :(

2. There should be an appreciation of the power level of blue's ability to do all of these things holistically versus the other colors.
3. Whether it should be framed in terms of increasing "anti-control" tools or bringing blue draw and manipulation more in line with the rest of the cube.


Another thing worth noting: there is a cascading effect with "big" card draw/selection (assuming the time exists to cast it or the mana cost is sufficiently low) when it is available past a certain density in a deck. Once it starts, it usually continues until the game ends.

A deck with one Careful Consideration, one Mulldrifter and a handful of cantrips will see more cards in a game, but after it's burst of card advantage, it's back to normal. (And much of the raw card advantage relies on getting to the CConsideration.) Similarly to a deck that gets to cast Sphinx's Revelation at 8+ mana, decks with a preponderance of card draw shouldn't run out of cards to play until the game ends. This game environment often manifests itself in constructed.

For example, RTR-THS Standard featured UW/Mono-Black/Mono-Blue as the decks to beat, with Sphinx's Rev/Jace, Architect of Thought squaring off against Pack Rat(turns bad cards into threats)/Thoughtseize/Underworld Connections in card advantage wars (with blue hoping to win with a well-placed piece of disruption and over-statted threats). While the games could be interesting, the playable card pool at the time was quite restricted.

RTR-THS Standard GP Top 8 Decks: #LINK#

Another example: GP Tacoma 2015: 28 of 32 Brainstorms were in the Top 8. The winning deck (Lands) was essentially a prison combo deck that aimed to nullify large swaths of the opposing cards and didn't include brainstorm, but all of the other top-performers had their strategies coupled with blue support and mana bases that let them cast whatever else they desired.

GP Tacoma Top 8: #LINK#

Personally, the one-card-per-turn-drawn rule is integral to my base magic experience, and the two above examples showcase where MTG's format specifications and design have gone astray of the base Magic experience. Card advantage/selection should be present in formats, but not to the point where (1) it must occur to win the majority of games, (2) decks include blue or black effortlessly to obtain it or (3) decks must fight card advantage through speed/mana denial to win without much of it.

(and I can't help but notice the satyr wayfinder and grisly salvage sitting in the side board)

I originally had them in, but decided that I needed more card that "did" things with my mana count so high (and relatively low #s of GY synergy that couldn't be maintained through playing normal MTG). I think I would cut Bojuka Bog for Wayfinder and possibly Consuming Vapors for something else if I were to play with this deck again. :{
 
I hope this thread doesn't end up as an argument about the term "card advantage"


We seriously need a glossary. Grillo brought up an important distinguishing factor, and a lot of the conversations here are nuanced enough that clear communication is mandated to progress the conversation. I only wish that I was smart enough to be quickly eloquent :<
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I personally felt that the players in this draft were not taking fixing or splashing aggressively enough, and blue was super open. I got one pack with a two-card pack of Venser, Shaper Savant and Cryptic Command. I would have played Cryptic if I wasn't super overloaded on 4-drops, but did occasionally bring in Ojutai's Command. Pretty sure I got JTMS 4th pick in a pack (maybe 5th).

I'm used to people splashing more aggressively, and I think the lack of pressure on blue let safra put together a pretty great deck. Will consider watering it down a bit (no pun intended), but I don't want to knee-jerk based off of one draft.

My deck, aside from the utility lands, could pop up in pretty much any cube (swap Day of Judgment for Wrath of God), and considering that other archetypes are powered up, I don't think there's too much to worry about (yet).

In these situations its difficult to separate the "archetypes" from how well they were drafted (and piloted), and, let's not forget that last draft Dom ran the tables with RGw ramp:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/test-draft-sunday-november-1st-at-2pm-est.992/page-2#post-46180

At this point I've seen pretty much every archetype go undefeated in my cube, but I'll always pay attention to feedback coming in.
 
-I think game two I pulled off Delver>daze>flip(revealing Counterspell) turns 1-2 exactly as Grillo describes, and Chris was at 10 life when the Delver actually died. That kind of aggro start really does a number on the clunky decks.
-Curse of the Shallow Grave has gone from a card I have Opinions about to one I actually don't like anymore. It's just too annoying, like a cheaper Garruk R you can't attack. Even Curse of Predation feels better to play with and against; I was able to run a really creature-light deck and still overwhelm his spot removal (another game I think he smothered a Spirit token, ouch)
-I think only twice in all my games did I ever hit 5 lands for Treachery, so I ended up siding out Mulldrifter early on. Wasteland and Gemstone Mine are great for delver strats but hell on 4-drops.
-Fact or Fiction is really, really powerful.


I really appreciate this part of your post, Chris, because I think it crystallized for me that this is a little bit about the kinds of environments we like to play in. I personally think the printing of Delver of Secrets did a number on the viability of non-blue aggro in eternal formats, and I enjoy getting to craft my Cube as sort of a theoretical 'what-if', exploring t1.5 cards with (some of) the pace and interaction of Legacy or a compelling and fair Modern matchup.

RTR-THS Standard GP Top 8 Decks: #LINK#

Another example: GP Tacoma 2015: 28 of 32 Brainstorms were in the Top 8. The winning deck (Lands) was essentially a prison combo deck that aimed to nullify large swaths of the opposing cards and didn't include brainstorm, but all of the other top-performers had their strategies coupled with blue support and mana bases that let them cast whatever else they desired.

GP Tacoma Top 8: #LINK#

Personally, the one-card-per-turn-drawn rule is integral to my base magic experience, and the two above examples showcase where MTG's format specifications and design have gone astray of the base Magic experience. Card advantage/selection should be present in formats, but not to the point where (1) it must occur to win the majority of games, (2) decks include blue or black effortlessly to obtain it or (3) decks must fight card advantage through speed/mana denial to win without much of it.
Point 3 I think is interesting, because IME the sort of taxing aggro archetypes you find in high-power spell velocity formats (Thalia aggro, Wastelands, Bedtime Voice, etc) aren't fighting card advantage (how many resources you have), they're fighting card velocity (how quickly you can expend those resources) and pushing out poorly-executed archetype aggro decks. There's still room for aggressive decks to incorporate their own card advantage, whether 'drawing' from the graveyard or steamrolling chumps underneath ETBs and disaster turn spells. This is def. a condensing effect on the format but it's one I think many awkward formats arrive at naturally given enough time, so I don't know that it's such a negative influence really. Also I like the sort of crucible for archetypal strats although fine-tuning it so that generic midrange loses to tuned archetypes is an awful headache.

I think this is important because I'm not as interested in the "base" Magic experience (were i CML i'd smugly remark about how it truly is the base experience, lol*), I want a format where people have options in their hand to choose from starting with the beginning turns of the game. If one looks to maximize the possibility of misplays (and what else is Cube for?) then surely a greater emphasis on sequencing helps that goal. Such formats will feel a lot less like traditional Limited, obviously! But I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, just different.

*Lots Of Love
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member


Pick 3-4, or double up on your favourites?

I've never thought of these as being anti-control measures though (other than Duress). They work pretty well in any deck.

It's more that you can strip the wrath out of their hand. They're not specifically anti-control, but I think they're more effective against control. If you can strip the wrath out of their hand your win percentage goes way up. Taking out any given aggro card (and losing 2 life in the process) isn't going to have the same effect.
 
Disrupt the opponent's curve and/or protect our curve. If I'm an aggro deck, I use discard to rip away anything that could 2-for-1 me if I'm off to an aggressive start or to get rid of a huge threat that will stonewall me. If I'm a grindier deck, I'm looking to take away threats that will pressure me and keep me from reaching the late game where I probably have an advantage.

Discard is much better in multiples than anything; curving discard discard threat is a difficult thing for many decks to overcome since you're usually ripping away real threats.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
For something like Chris' deck I think you would want it as a turn 1 play, to disrupt an opponent's curve, before sticking a turn 2 threat. Those kind of clunky fair decks are kind of one spell a turn decks until they hit 4 mana, and having either a turn 1 mana dork or turn 1 hand disruption spell helps them out a lot.

Its unfortunate though that you can't really run card advantage discard.
 
I remember reading the philosophy of fire article and realizing why it felt so unfair when people were constantly witnessing up their rude awakenings.

You guys ever cycle a krosan tusker? It's like instant speed divination that can also be a creature that can also be reanimated.

When you are fighting an aggro deck full of idiot 2/1s your ravenous baloth feels like 3-4 cards.
 
Speaking of non-blue card advantage; an interesting card.

Of course, it's even grosser with blue, where if you brainstorm off an empty hand with pursuit of knowledge on board and use its replacement effect, you've drawn 7 for 5 mana. :p
 
I remember reading the philosophy of fire article and realizing why it felt so unfair when people were constantly witnessing up their rude awakenings.

You guys ever cycle a krosan tusker? It's like instant speed divination that can also be a creature that can also be reanimated.

When you are fighting an aggro deck full of idiot 2/1s your ravenous baloth feels like 3-4 cards.


Is Tusker good enough? I always liked it in peasant, but idk. Is it better than draw 2 more often than its worse?
 
I mean, is it good enough compared to what? Green doesn't exactly have conpulsibe research and witness / cultivate are clunky as hell

Anyway, another rare insight I can share is until I played a lot with bounce lands i hadn't realized sol ring wasn't just amazing acceleration it's also card advantage.
 
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