General Opportunities and Ideas

VibeBox

Contributor
I think most people would agree that Cube is still effectively in it's infancy, having only recently gained mainstream popularity, and with core principles and cards only recently being nailed down. This means there is clearly still quite a bit of space for innovation and exploration. I am ecstatic to see a new Cube forum pop up, as I have been a denizen of the dying medium most of my life, and yearn for a place to have serious Cube discussion.
While I certainly appreciate the content and help mtgsalvation provided to myself and countless others when while I was first learning to manage a Cube, in practice it is a terrible place. I hold no ill will toward it's inhabitants, but it has become a cesspool of feedback loops and hivemind mentality.I hope to help foster an attitude of adventurousness and open mindedness toward Cube here, in order that we may all end up with better Cubes.
In that spirit I would like to use my first thread here to dump some project ideas I have in here, and see if anyone is interested in pursuing them with me or helping organize them. I hope to hear any ideas you all may have as well.


1. Format Testing
Sealed is a terrible format, a fact bemoaned by pretty much every Cuber I've had occasion to converse with at any length. I think there is probably a strong demand for a format that plays as deep and skill testing as draft that will scale from 2-5 players. While "pick up" Cube sessions often fall into this range, in most cases 2-5 players is a dead zone for fun Cubing unless you are blessed with a player base that appreciates the Rochester draft and even then that only really solves 5, thus dooming the group to a Sealed.
My room mate and I have been tinkering with some new format ideas, but they need more testing, and I'm sure some of you have format ideas as well. If we could get multiple groups testing new format ideas we could really create something to fill this need that could catch on in a serious way.

2. Coordinated Card Testing
I envision a vote at the beginning of each month or something on an oddball card in particular or perhaps a small set of cards meant to support a theme. A commitment from several players to all test the card simultaneously could yield very clear verdicts on cards, and through comparison of the results from different lists we could even define parameters of what kind of size and/or support a card or class of cards needs to succeed.

3. Organized MTGO Cubing
Limited Resources and others have already been doing this, and I think it's the best thing we as a community could be doing to further interest and understanding of Cube. Wizards has had great success with their sporadic Cube offerings, but not because they have a good Cube (I doubt I'd be alone in saying they in fact have a terrible bloated Cube) but because Cube is so largely inaccessible to the majority of players. Most people simply do not have the depth of card backstock (or of wallet) to simply build one, and in fact most people do not even know someone who has as much.
Offering a way to play Cube with no up front investment of time or money would, I think, draw quite a bit of interest. With cards being so cheap on mtgo a Cube would be very easy to build at almost no cost to each individual member of the hosting clan. A pauper Cube and a "Jank Cube" could be build quickly and cheaply out of donations, the first of which i am certainly willing to make out of my collection of Modern playables.

4. An MTGO Clan
An easy way to grow membership, organize events, and pique interest. I welcome anyone to friend me on mtgo for Cube chat and such so we can get the ball rolling. My SN is Tobias Funke.

5. Creating Cube Content
The publishing of weekly articles, news coverage, podcasts, archetype and specialty primers...ect.
As the number of Cubers continues to increase so does the demand for content. While The Joy of Cubing is great (Kranstuber is perhaps the best Cube mind we have) the bar for Cube content is otherwise quite low and the market is far from saturated.

I love the name of this place, and I sincerely hope the community can live up to it.
Let's start experimenting. There's Cube Science to be done.
 

Rob Dennis

Developer
I appreciated most of what's going on here, but I'd like to specifically mention that I like the idea of distributed testing of cards/packages. As someone who gets around 1 8-man every 6 weeks, it's difficult to get the necessary reps to make intelligent decisions about where to grow my cube.

The specific implementation could been done a couple of ways, but I'd love if that became a thing.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi VibeBox, thanks for the thread. Regarding formats, I wrote about a couple that have been quite well liked: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-grid-drafting-and-more/
Neither are perfect, but perhaps they can give you ideas.

Regarding an MTGO cube, I personally would not be really interested in playing a Pauper or "Jank Cube", but perhaps others feel differently. I do wish Wizards would sell some sort of "Cubers License" for MTGO where you could upload a list and host paid drafts. I don't know that they have much incentive to do this though.
 

CML

Contributor
jason -- see, they do have an incentive to make a nice cube thing on modo, just like they have an incentive to make modo anything other than a steaming pile, but they don't think they do, because it would cost money, just like adding more people to the pro tour, which they lose money on (in the same way the heat lose money paying lebron's salary), and gdjfhjfkj.

i agree with the OP in nearly every way, especially so on syndicating cube content. only one exception: i like sealed, i think it's challenging
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I think sealed is fun to play but bad as a testing tool. I find Team Sealed far more engaging though. You can even do Team Sealed with two players, hoorah!

If you think they are capable of competently implementing a "Cubers License" then you probably haven't seen the Beta... :) (not that you think that)
 

VibeBox

Contributor
There has been an outright aknowlegment iirc by wotc staff that they are "aware [the licensing program] is something people want" and while they claimed it was something they definitely wanted to work on, it didn't sound like anything that would be happening in any kind of immediate timeline, and it reaked of one of those "institutional lies" CML talks about : -/

Jason, I have read your grid article, and have run through about a dozen or so with 2 or 3 different people. It was well received, and pretty fun. I much prefer it to the old winchester heads ups! However, I don't feel it scales vary well, as with three we've had sort of clumsy decks, and i wouldn't even try it with four. (Though the failure of the threes may well be on the playskill of those involved. I don't have a very sophisticated playgroup unfortunately outside of like the core 3) No offense intended though, because as a heads up format it's a great tool to have in the Cubing repertoire.

Sealed can be challenging, true. For me the issue is, as Jason mentioned, that it's a terrible criteria to actually judge cards. Many cards may have earned their slots not for widespread playability but their somewhat narrow efficiency in a couple of archetypes. Once you lose the power of card selection the likelihood you happen to get enough of those cards live can be frustratingly low.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Hey Vibe, no offense taken regarding multiplayer Grid Drafting. Would it be awful to admit that I never really played the four player variant? People were asking for one on the MTGS forums so I devised one, and a couple weeks later saw Matt Kranstuber raving about it to Andy Cooperfauss on Twitter. So I took that as a strong endorsement.

The other format I've been playing with for 4 players is a "take one, hate one" variant. Basically you use the full 360 cards, but after each pick you hate draft one card from the pack (put it face down in a pile in the center of the table). There's a bit more to it than that.

Basically, for "Pack 1", start with 8 packs of 15. Each player takes two packs. For their first pack, they hate-draft a card then put it in their left-opponent's queue. For each other pack, you pick a card for your deck and then hate-draft a card. Repeat for Pack 2 and Pack 3. It's a pretty good facsimile of 8-player drafting.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Regarding playing drafts together, does anybody have experience with playing Magic via Skype? I would love to draft decks with TappedOut then play them via Skype. Since we're all cubers, we should have most of the cards (and can proxy the rest), and it would be a fun social experience. I still hold that scheduling would be a huge hassle, especially while we have so few members. It's going to be near impossible to find a time when 8 of 20 people can get together to draft. 8 of 50, however, would be a different story.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
The other format I've been playing with for 4 players is a "take one, hate one" variant. Basically you use the full 360 cards, but after each pick you hate draft one card from the pack (put it face down in a pile in the center of the table). There's a bit more to it than that.

Basically, for "Pack 1", start with 8 packs of 15. Each player takes two packs. For their first pack, they hate-draft a card then put it in their left-opponent's queue. For each other pack, you pick a card from your deck and then hate-draft a card. Repeat for Pack 2 and Pack 3. It's a pretty good facsimile of 8-player drafting.

This idea sounds really good. I like it a lot more than the random removal of cards idea from the other thread. This sounds so good, in fact, that it's one of those ideas that made me immediately smack my forehead and say, "Why didn't I come up with that myself?"

I'm down for a virtual cube draft. I agree that a Skype video call would be preferable to something like Cockatrice or MWS.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I like it better too. Although, for two-players I find hate-drafting 3 cards per pick to be quite mentally taxing. That's 180 card picks you have to make throughout the draft.
 
As for the organized MTGO cubing, back before the official MTGO cube was released, I actually had my own MTGO cube that was cheap enough I didn't mind lending it out to folks (as temporary "trades"). I gave myself a $40 total budget for a 360 card cube, and it was really not bad. (There were some interesting design decisions forced by a $0.12 a card average!) Sadly, at one point a guy ran off with a monowhite deck, but it only cost $5 to replace. You can Winston it online, or use tappedout.net for bigger drafts. I've also done a forum-based Rochester of it.

Actually, if folks here are interested, I'd love to bust that thing out again.
 
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