Article Parnell's Aggro: Subtractive Design
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
I liked Parnell's article, too. That section on anti-aggro made my eyes light up. I'd cut four of the cards in his screen cap within the last months, for the exact same design reasons (Wurmcoil, Shackles, Gideon, and Huntmaster). Thragtusk is on close watch, and only Fetters and Finks are safe here.
It's heartening to see that some of the well known voices in the cube community are coming around to adopting good design principles.
It's heartening to see that some of the well known voices in the cube community are coming around to adopting good design principles.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I've never really understood why aggro decks are supposed to need the help. Back when my cube was designed for power maximization, aggro was the best performing deck type (excluding some things like reanimator which were fairly rare). Aggro's trumps - cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Ankh of Mishra, Winter Orb, and so on - are both cheaper to cast than control's trumps and beat them in a head-to-head clash, and it's much easier to get a nut draw with aggro than with control.
That's strange, I think most have had different experiences. Maybe it's perception. When aggro gets a nut draw the game is over quickly. Playing against some control decks is really drawn out and tedious.
I also don't think control decks are nearly as reliant on "nut draws". I've played games where I had a good aggro opening, and just stood no chance against a Maze of Ith + Wall of Omens. The opponent didn't really do anything else until Turn 5 or so.
In many cubes aggro is pretty weak if it doesn't draw its trumps. Weak white aggro decks praying to draw an Armageddon effect.
I also don't think control decks are nearly as reliant on "nut draws". I've played games where I had a good aggro opening, and just stood no chance against a Maze of Ith + Wall of Omens. The opponent didn't really do anything else until Turn 5 or so.
In many cubes aggro is pretty weak if it doesn't draw its trumps. Weak white aggro decks praying to draw an Armageddon effect.
In my experience, I've found that control trumps are more numerous and easier to pick up than the equivalent for aggro decks. Any number of wrath effects, Titans and Titan-like finishers, token producers, spells with incidental life gain, and various other defensive measures are typically abundant in most cubes, and don't need to be prioritized particularly highly by any given control drafter. On the flip side, if you're going heavy white weenie, and the card pool doesn't happen to include one of the two Armageddon effects, your chances of running the table go down markedly.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Sure, but aggro also has Swords/Wargear, Skullclamp, planeswalkers (namely Elspeth/Koth), protection guys, more effective mana disruption/counterspells/discard, and so on.
I enjoyed his article pretty much and I have to say that I actually run all of the aggro offenders he listed. (To be fair, both Huntmaster of the Fells and Kitchen Finks are very likely to be picked by aggro players just as likely as they are to be picked by midrange/anti-aggro decks.) I don't know if my playgroup is a bit aberrant on playstyles, but we tend to have a lot of aggro decks (and low mana midrange that also act as pseudo-aggro) and the win rate of these decks are pretty much balanced from what I have seen so far.
I know that these cards are big roadblocks for aggro decks, but most of them come online only after 5 mana. One step that I have taken to make aggro more interesting in my cube is that I am constantly reevaluating the cards that make control decks last until they have a position to cast these spells. Pretty much every one of my players expect to find a Baneslayer Angel or a Thragtusk in my cube because those are the kind of splashy cards they want to play, but by not having little guys like Augur of Bolas, Sea Gate Oracle or Absorv, aggressive decks stands a better chance.
I know that these cards are big roadblocks for aggro decks, but most of them come online only after 5 mana. One step that I have taken to make aggro more interesting in my cube is that I am constantly reevaluating the cards that make control decks last until they have a position to cast these spells. Pretty much every one of my players expect to find a Baneslayer Angel or a Thragtusk in my cube because those are the kind of splashy cards they want to play, but by not having little guys like Augur of Bolas, Sea Gate Oracle or Absorv, aggressive decks stands a better chance.
Vince, when I watch MTGO cube matches, very often the control player is simply doing nothing in the opening turns and hoping the aggro deck stumbles along the way, which seems pretty boring and non-interactive. Then they hope to win the game by just running out a Thragtusk or whatever.
In my own cube, cards like Augur of Bolas and Sea Gate Oracle give control decks a way to interact early and make the match-ups more dynamic. Have you experienced any of these problems? For me, I really like games like Legacy where the interaction and positioning starts on Turn 1, as opposed the types of games I see in the MTGO cube. I would rather have more of the early plays and less-dominant late-game bombs (e.g. no Wurmcoil).
In my own cube, cards like Augur of Bolas and Sea Gate Oracle give control decks a way to interact early and make the match-ups more dynamic. Have you experienced any of these problems? For me, I really like games like Legacy where the interaction and positioning starts on Turn 1, as opposed the types of games I see in the MTGO cube. I would rather have more of the early plays and less-dominant late-game bombs (e.g. no Wurmcoil).
CML
Contributor
It's a pretty good article. In the comments, I ridiculed Eric Klug for saying Maze of Ith was healthy for Cube ('stick to painting, bro'), then I wrote the following critique:
i broadly agree with this sweet article and you should come talk cube and shit with us at www.riptidelab.com.
my main quibble is that with a high-enough density of fixing (say, 18% lands) you don't need to include trash like jungle lion, jackal pup, elite vanguard, since aggro decks will have access to 3+ colors and won't be so starved as to include bad cards. the part where you talk about 'heavier mono-color support' is absurd, because the whole point is that aggro decks NEED high-power high-density fixing. spectral's an easy cut, battle screech on the other hand...
to further this point: i agree about black aggro, though i think it maybe should be zombie-based with gravecrawler and not include the other 1-drops, since black has all the 1-cmc discard anyway and if you're black aggro you're also playing two other colors with better 1's.
i'm with you on nerfing control, though i wouldn't go so far as to cut fetters, finks, and huntmaster. if aggro is good enough, control should be able to fight it. dynamic tension is interaction is fun cube. moat and wurmcoil on the other hand can go fuck themselves
last point: ugh, ankh of mishra. i guess it's less retarded than black vise...
i broadly agree with this sweet article and you should come talk cube and shit with us at www.riptidelab.com.
my main quibble is that with a high-enough density of fixing (say, 18% lands) you don't need to include trash like jungle lion, jackal pup, elite vanguard, since aggro decks will have access to 3+ colors and won't be so starved as to include bad cards. the part where you talk about 'heavier mono-color support' is absurd, because the whole point is that aggro decks NEED high-power high-density fixing. spectral's an easy cut, battle screech on the other hand...
to further this point: i agree about black aggro, though i think it maybe should be zombie-based with gravecrawler and not include the other 1-drops, since black has all the 1-cmc discard anyway and if you're black aggro you're also playing two other colors with better 1's.
i'm with you on nerfing control, though i wouldn't go so far as to cut fetters, finks, and huntmaster. if aggro is good enough, control should be able to fight it. dynamic tension is interaction is fun cube. moat and wurmcoil on the other hand can go fuck themselves
last point: ugh, ankh of mishra. i guess it's less retarded than black vise...
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Maybe it's worth compiling a list of those aformentioned "aggro hosing" cards:
Thragtusk
Wurmcoil Engine
Faith's Fetters
Gideon Jura
Wall of Reverence
Maze of Ith
Moat
Wall of Denial
Timely Reinforcements
Lone Missionary
Ghostly Prison
Propaganda
Collective Restraint
Dueling Grounds
Ensnaring Bridge
Obstinate Baloth
Carven Caryatid
Spinal Embrace
Lightning Helix
Please, suggest more. A lot of these seem natural for cube designers, but I'll be the first to admit a lot of these flew under my radar as aggro hosing cards for a while
Random tangent: When a friend shows up late to cubeing, sometimes we give them the "sideboard deck", where they build a sealed deck out of everything that didn't make someone's main deck, and they play just like they would regularly. I recall a time when I was the lucky winner, and put together a really strong black/white aggro deck, with 8+ 1 drops, 2-3 killspells, Duress and Thoughtseize, and a decent ammount of evasion.I even got 3 nonbasics, including fetid heath (which we all know is key for that deck)
My first match (best of 9, since everyone was taking so long) I went 0-5 against my buddy's white green control deck with a whopping 9 walls in it. The savannah lions deck doesn't do so well against a curve of path to exile > wall of blossoms > carven caryatid > wall of reverence > battlegrace angel.
[/tangent]
Thragtusk
Wurmcoil Engine
Faith's Fetters
Gideon Jura
Wall of Reverence
Maze of Ith
Moat
Wall of Denial
Timely Reinforcements
Lone Missionary
Ghostly Prison
Propaganda
Collective Restraint
Dueling Grounds
Ensnaring Bridge
Obstinate Baloth
Carven Caryatid
Spinal Embrace
Lightning Helix
Please, suggest more. A lot of these seem natural for cube designers, but I'll be the first to admit a lot of these flew under my radar as aggro hosing cards for a while
Random tangent: When a friend shows up late to cubeing, sometimes we give them the "sideboard deck", where they build a sealed deck out of everything that didn't make someone's main deck, and they play just like they would regularly. I recall a time when I was the lucky winner, and put together a really strong black/white aggro deck, with 8+ 1 drops, 2-3 killspells, Duress and Thoughtseize, and a decent ammount of evasion.I even got 3 nonbasics, including fetid heath (which we all know is key for that deck)
My first match (best of 9, since everyone was taking so long) I went 0-5 against my buddy's white green control deck with a whopping 9 walls in it. The savannah lions deck doesn't do so well against a curve of path to exile > wall of blossoms > carven caryatid > wall of reverence > battlegrace angel.
[/tangent]
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Of that list, I like:
Thragtusk, Wurmcoil Engine, Faith's Fetters, Gideon Jura, Wurmcoil Engine, Lone Missionary, Obstinate Baloth, Lightning Helix, Carven Caryatid, Maze of Ith, Timely Reinforcements (it requires setup and intersects nicely with a lot of themes I'm pushing)
I don't like:
all of the others
In other words, I don't like the cards explicitly designed to hose aggro; Moat or Wall of Denial or w/e are very good against aggro and very bad against everyone else, so it's rare that they make the game more interesting. The likes of Ghostly Prison can force some decisions on opponents, but I don't think that's enough to redeem them. All of the cards I came out in favour of above have other uses or are strong against aggro by virtue of being strong cards in general.
Thragtusk, Wurmcoil Engine, Faith's Fetters, Gideon Jura, Wurmcoil Engine, Lone Missionary, Obstinate Baloth, Lightning Helix, Carven Caryatid, Maze of Ith, Timely Reinforcements (it requires setup and intersects nicely with a lot of themes I'm pushing)
I don't like:
all of the others
In other words, I don't like the cards explicitly designed to hose aggro; Moat or Wall of Denial or w/e are very good against aggro and very bad against everyone else, so it's rare that they make the game more interesting. The likes of Ghostly Prison can force some decisions on opponents, but I don't think that's enough to redeem them. All of the cards I came out in favour of above have other uses or are strong against aggro by virtue of being strong cards in general.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Oh Right! I totally forgot!
Boros Reckoner
Spitemare
Cool as they are, they do present a problem for aggro decks, especially red ones
Boros Reckoner
Spitemare
Cool as they are, they do present a problem for aggro decks, especially red ones
There's a toooooon of aggro hosers. Like Dom says, some are explicitly designed to hose aggro; others are just good cards, and happen to be better against aggro. For an example of the latter category, token producers are good in aggro decks, but are also very, very good against aggro decks. Lingering Souls more or less stops any fair aggro deck cold.
I may be repeating other people's choices, but the bigger offenders I've identified from my own cube are:
Baneslayer Angel
Condemn
Day of Judgment
Gideon Jura
Wall of Omens
Augur of Bolas
Jace, Architect of Thought
Sea Gate Oracle
Vedalken Shackles
Damnation
Bonfire of the Damned
Cunning Sparkmage
Inferno Titan
Pyroclasm
Slagstorm
Staggershock
Obstinate Baloth
Thragtusk
Wall of Roots
Azorius Charm
Boros Reckoner
Electrolyze
Huntmaster of the Fells
Kitchen Finks
Lingering Souls
Olivia Voldaren
Batterskull
Engineered Explosives
Umezawa's Jitte (ding ding ding!)
Wurmcoil Engine
I don't run some of the more esoteric walls, but I think it's safe to say that any card with defender can probably be put on anyone's aggro-hosing list, as well.
This excludes the long list of removal spells that are naturally better against aggro decks with small creatures. Pretty much every direct damage spell indirectly hoses aggro in some small way, because they're more likely to be pointed at the likes of a Steppe Lynx or a Rakdos Cackler than at Generic Large Blue Finisher. There's a reason why Pillar of Flame is a viable spell in Standard at the moment, and it's not because people are doming each other for two.
I may be repeating other people's choices, but the bigger offenders I've identified from my own cube are:
Baneslayer Angel
Condemn
Day of Judgment
Gideon Jura
Wall of Omens
Augur of Bolas
Jace, Architect of Thought
Sea Gate Oracle
Vedalken Shackles
Damnation
Bonfire of the Damned
Cunning Sparkmage
Inferno Titan
Pyroclasm
Slagstorm
Staggershock
Obstinate Baloth
Thragtusk
Wall of Roots
Azorius Charm
Boros Reckoner
Electrolyze
Huntmaster of the Fells
Kitchen Finks
Lingering Souls
Olivia Voldaren
Batterskull
Engineered Explosives
Umezawa's Jitte (ding ding ding!)
Wurmcoil Engine
I don't run some of the more esoteric walls, but I think it's safe to say that any card with defender can probably be put on anyone's aggro-hosing list, as well.
This excludes the long list of removal spells that are naturally better against aggro decks with small creatures. Pretty much every direct damage spell indirectly hoses aggro in some small way, because they're more likely to be pointed at the likes of a Steppe Lynx or a Rakdos Cackler than at Generic Large Blue Finisher. There's a reason why Pillar of Flame is a viable spell in Standard at the moment, and it's not because people are doming each other for two.
Jason, I don't think I ever had this problem of control players just waiting to play anything that simply trumps aggro. I have never watched MTGO cube drafts or played it yet but, from what I have gathered so far, the environment is extremely slow and the support for aggro decks is thin at best. In my cube I have a lot of support for aggro and just waiting for the aggressive player to stumble tends to make control decks lose.
I tend to move away from auto 2-for-1s that control uses to "get there". Usually control here is spending the early turns setting up mana, going 1-for-1 with early removal or counterspells, or digging for some answers. I believe that this might work best in my cube than in your faster environment, but I realized that if I were to load my cube with these support effects (which are mostly 2-for-1), by the time control gets to his late game bomb, it doesn't matter if the aggro player can answer it or not, because he is already buried in a tomb of card advantage.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I see your Arc Trail, and raise you a Magus of the Tabernacle.
CML
Contributor
I think you guys (Eric) are taking it too far -- my best guess is that if you're labeling all of the above list 'aggro hosers,' you're not supporting aggro well enough. This may be a function of a too-high curve, though it's probably due to insufficient density of fixing (which practically results in aggro decks having a higher curve, same issue). I agree with Jason that the Modo cube paradigm of "hope you don't do anything" is awful, control decks should be able to start 'playing Magic' on turn 1 too and that way you get that nice dynamic tension. List critique below:
Gideon Jura, Bonfire of the Damned, Umezawa's Jitte, Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, Vedalken Shackles -- I hate these cards and would not include them ever, they're far far too 'first-picky,' demand very specific answers, and are not fun to play with or against. (I can see Jitte being OK in a Cube with a million sac effects, so it never gets counters, but even then ...)
Pyroclasm, Slagstorm -- I like red having 1-2 sweepers (some permutation of Volcanic Fallout, Firespout, Earthquake, and those two) but yeah they're pretty strong.
Day of Judgment and Damnation -- I like one sweeper in Black and one in White and these are my favorites (though obviously Hour of Reckoning, Hallowed Burial, Black Sun's Zenith, Gloomdrifter are possible). Sweepers would make an interesting thread, like obviously the Modo cube has far far too many (a sham definition of 'interaction'!) but I think 6 or so is nice in a 405. I also like them to do different things, so like maybe 1-2 vanilla Wraths, 0-1 Planar Cleansing-/Austere Command-type effects, a Cyclonic Rift or Evacuation, and so on.
Baneslayer Angel - Eh, I have mixed feelings. This card can feel unbeatable, but is abstractly not much better than Cloudgoat Ranger and certainly worse than Reveillark.
Condemn - I'm not into Condemn specifically but I do like cards like Condemn.
Wall of Omens - Wall is sweet come on now
Augur of Bolas - Augur is sweet come on now
Jace, Architect of Thought - Bleh, not a great card
Sea Gate Oracle - I love Oracle
Cunning Sparkmage - Cube needs at least one pinger effect
Inferno Titan - Perfection! It's more of an aggro card than Grave Titan, though, since it blocks poorly, doesn't stabilize on the spot, and sucks against Threaten effects
Staggershock - I love Staggershock too
Obstinate Baloth - I don't care much for Baloth, but Loxodon Hierarch is fun
Thragtusk - I wouldn't add him
Wall of Roots - Eh, up to you -- there's a ton of choices for Green 2-drop accelerants and Cubes often lack enough green 1's
Azorius Charm - Fine
Boros Reckoner - Fine
Electrolyze - Fine
Huntmaster of the Fells - Fine
Kitchen Finks - Fine
Lingering Souls - Fine
Olivia Voldaren - Fine (she's pretty slow)
Engineered Explosives - Fine
I also think Sprouting Thrinax, Jund Charm, Rhox War Monk, Lone Missionary, and Angel of Serenity are fine. White in particular is supposed to have answers to aggro, it's part of its slice of the pie. Cutting Lightning Helix seems crazy
Gideon Jura, Bonfire of the Damned, Umezawa's Jitte, Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, Vedalken Shackles -- I hate these cards and would not include them ever, they're far far too 'first-picky,' demand very specific answers, and are not fun to play with or against. (I can see Jitte being OK in a Cube with a million sac effects, so it never gets counters, but even then ...)
Pyroclasm, Slagstorm -- I like red having 1-2 sweepers (some permutation of Volcanic Fallout, Firespout, Earthquake, and those two) but yeah they're pretty strong.
Day of Judgment and Damnation -- I like one sweeper in Black and one in White and these are my favorites (though obviously Hour of Reckoning, Hallowed Burial, Black Sun's Zenith, Gloomdrifter are possible). Sweepers would make an interesting thread, like obviously the Modo cube has far far too many (a sham definition of 'interaction'!) but I think 6 or so is nice in a 405. I also like them to do different things, so like maybe 1-2 vanilla Wraths, 0-1 Planar Cleansing-/Austere Command-type effects, a Cyclonic Rift or Evacuation, and so on.
Baneslayer Angel - Eh, I have mixed feelings. This card can feel unbeatable, but is abstractly not much better than Cloudgoat Ranger and certainly worse than Reveillark.
Condemn - I'm not into Condemn specifically but I do like cards like Condemn.
Wall of Omens - Wall is sweet come on now
Augur of Bolas - Augur is sweet come on now
Jace, Architect of Thought - Bleh, not a great card
Sea Gate Oracle - I love Oracle
Cunning Sparkmage - Cube needs at least one pinger effect
Inferno Titan - Perfection! It's more of an aggro card than Grave Titan, though, since it blocks poorly, doesn't stabilize on the spot, and sucks against Threaten effects
Staggershock - I love Staggershock too
Obstinate Baloth - I don't care much for Baloth, but Loxodon Hierarch is fun
Thragtusk - I wouldn't add him
Wall of Roots - Eh, up to you -- there's a ton of choices for Green 2-drop accelerants and Cubes often lack enough green 1's
Azorius Charm - Fine
Boros Reckoner - Fine
Electrolyze - Fine
Huntmaster of the Fells - Fine
Kitchen Finks - Fine
Lingering Souls - Fine
Olivia Voldaren - Fine (she's pretty slow)
Engineered Explosives - Fine
I also think Sprouting Thrinax, Jund Charm, Rhox War Monk, Lone Missionary, and Angel of Serenity are fine. White in particular is supposed to have answers to aggro, it's part of its slice of the pie. Cutting Lightning Helix seems crazy
I got the impression Eric was just making a comprehensive list of cards to consider, not necessarily saying they all need to go. I think there are many permutations you can go with, and I don't really see any one of those cards as uncuttable depending on the dynamic you're going for. It's just about finding the right balance. I even went through a phase where aggro had a strong upper hand, and had to bring in more control support.
There are many ways to achieve a balanced dynamic, but I do find the Turn 2 Augur of Bolas design much more interesting than the Turn 2 signet style design. That's a topic for another day though.
There are many ways to achieve a balanced dynamic, but I do find the Turn 2 Augur of Bolas design much more interesting than the Turn 2 signet style design. That's a topic for another day though.
Right, I should have prefaced my rant and list by saying that those cards are more than fine in your typical cube list. I certainly don't want to give people the wrong impression to go and cut any card that incidentally stymies aggro decks, despite my strong and obvious pro-aggro bias. I merely wanted to point out that lots of legitimately good cards people run in their cubes exhibit a natural tendency to keep aggro decks in check, and it's worthwhile to note exactly which cards have that effect. That way, when you're turning the various knobs and dials on your cube, you may discover you've already got plenty of anti-aggro cards, and for that reason you can axe a specific hoser like Wall of Reverence.
With all that said, I feel like I'm going through a phase right now where aggro is definitely king again, and I want to give a gentle nudge for the pendulum to start swinging back the other way. Huntmaster of the Fells is the first card I'm looking to squeeze back in for this purpose.
Also, Lingering Souls is not fine. Eff that card. A card that singlehandedly trumps fair decks but does zilch against unfair decks is not my idea of a good time.
With all that said, I feel like I'm going through a phase right now where aggro is definitely king again, and I want to give a gentle nudge for the pendulum to start swinging back the other way. Huntmaster of the Fells is the first card I'm looking to squeeze back in for this purpose.
Also, Lingering Souls is not fine. Eff that card. A card that singlehandedly trumps fair decks but does zilch against unfair decks is not my idea of a good time.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
What has two thumbs and is good against Lingering Souls?
CML
Contributor
haha, sorry if i gave off an overbearing impression -- just wanted to record my thoughts on the cards and the thought process. i apologize!
anyway who has an 'unfair' deck in cube! souls is pretty balanced, like it's rarely played in standard, more played in legacy (less so because of deathblade supplanting stoneblade), and is merely very good in modern. in cube it's quite strong but being in two colors is a non-trivial cost, even in a cube with a ton of fixing and a few anthem effects.
i love huntmaster, lots of decisions with that guy.
i find that since cube aggro plays way less like old-school burn and way more like the current curve-out-aggro decks, gaining 5 life and making a 5/3 for 5 or whatever isn't going to do it by itself. i like the aggro decks for having more resilience and staying power, though their strength against blockers and lifegain is also their weakness against sweepers (board position). it's a tough balance to strike, let me know how yours is going!
anyway who has an 'unfair' deck in cube! souls is pretty balanced, like it's rarely played in standard, more played in legacy (less so because of deathblade supplanting stoneblade), and is merely very good in modern. in cube it's quite strong but being in two colors is a non-trivial cost, even in a cube with a ton of fixing and a few anthem effects.
i love huntmaster, lots of decisions with that guy.
i find that since cube aggro plays way less like old-school burn and way more like the current curve-out-aggro decks, gaining 5 life and making a 5/3 for 5 or whatever isn't going to do it by itself. i like the aggro decks for having more resilience and staying power, though their strength against blockers and lifegain is also their weakness against sweepers (board position). it's a tough balance to strike, let me know how yours is going!
Dom, I love your enthusiasm for Magus of the Tabernacle. Are you equally enthused by its source material?
Thragtusk is really satisfying in my cube. But a large part of that is because we run 3 threaten effects, so you can steal it, swing with it, then get a 3/3 off of a sacrifice effect. It feels like karmic justice every time.
Thragtusk is really satisfying in my cube. But a large part of that is because we run 3 threaten effects, so you can steal it, swing with it, then get a 3/3 off of a sacrifice effect. It feels like karmic justice every time.