Pete's 450 Unpowered Cube

How happy were you with the draft? That grixis control deck looks a bit ripetidish, but with weaker removal.

Did you get a chance to talk to the aggro player? It would be good to know how he felt about the fixing, if he felt like he was having hard time getting playables and forced into three colors, and if he was happy with the deck and would draft an aggro deck again. That last issue I think is the most important, because it does look like a very midrangy format, and having that aggro presence helps keep things fresh for players.

I was pretty happy overall. There was a good variety among the decks and the games that played out were all pretty interesting. I wish I'd gotten a better look at the Simic deck because I want to see how my blue revamp worked with it.

The aggro player seemed pretty happy, but that could just be because he's a happy guy in general. He's drafted aggro before and it's done well for him, so I'm pretty sure he'd draft aggro again. He was mostly W/R with a black splash mainly for Falkenrath Aristocrat, Snuff Out, and I think Bloodsoaked Champion.
 
New years cube draft! This time we had a full 8 people, and things got kind of crazy so I didn't get a good sense of what everyone was playing. However, I do know a U/w devotion list went 2-1, so I think my blue overhaul was at least partially successful. The winning deck was a pretty savage W/b aggro deck:








My own deck was a UG midrange deck with a black splash for Vraska and the black half of Deathrite Shaman. In one game I lost out of nowhere from a comfortable life total from a dude saccing his whole board to Goblin Bombardment followed by binning a Hallowed Spiritkeeper and pinging me with like 6 spirits. That was pretty sweet. I also had a very tense back and forth with a UR spells deck that was unfortunately spoiled by a game where I had 2 lands on the play and just didn't draw a land after like six draw steps, so that sucked. I only went 1-2, but still had fun. Anyway. Happy New Year guys.
 
I'm posting here because I looked at your list and really liked it, especially some of the spicy individual card choices. I have a couple comments on cards I've tested a lot and a couple questions about cards you've included.

So first, I've had a couple cards that I've seem in your list that I personally really like but could never get to work. Just a few random ones I noticed: Captain of the Watch, Geist-Honored Monk Future Sight, Rubblebelt Maaka, and Sylvan Primordial. I tried playing all these cards for a long time and they were always bad for me; maybe your format works a bit differently. Captain especially didn't seem to belong in a deck. What white tokens deck really wants a 6 drop? BUT worst of all was Seismic Assault! I fucking love Aggro Loam but Seismic Assault was never good in my cube. I even run two Life from the Loam, and Seismic just never made the cut. Without a full set of fetches and original duals, I don't see how many decks that want it will handle the triple red cost. If these cards all work well in your cube do you know what it is about your list that makes them good?

Then I saw a couple cards in your list that just look SWEET but I've never tried. How are:

Deadeye Navigator,
Phyrexian Plaguelord,
Mul Daya Channelers,
and the Lark/Karmic Guide shenanigans?

Plaguelord in particular looks sweet in cubes with sacrifice support.
 
I'm posting here because I looked at your list and really liked it, especially some of the spicy individual card choices. I have a couple comments on cards I've tested a lot and a couple questions about cards you've included.

So first, I've had a couple cards that I've seem in your list that I personally really like but could never get to work. Just a few random ones I noticed: Captain of the Watch, Geist-Honored Monk Future Sight, Rubblebelt Maaka, and Sylvan Primordial. I tried playing all these cards for a long time and they were always bad for me; maybe your format works a bit differently. Captain especially didn't seem to belong in a deck. What white tokens deck really wants a 6 drop? BUT worst of all was Seismic Assault! I fucking love Aggro Loam but Seismic Assault was never good in my cube. I even run two Life from the Loam, and Seismic just never made the cut. Without a full set of fetches and original duals, I don't see how many decks that want it will handle the triple red cost. If these cards all work well in your cube do you know what it is about your list that makes them good?

Then I saw a couple cards in your list that just look SWEET but I've never tried. How are:

Deadeye Navigator,
Phyrexian Plaguelord,
Mul Daya Channelers,
and the Lark/Karmic Guide shenanigans?

Plaguelord in particular looks sweet in cubes with sacrifice support.
Thanks! I'm glad you liked the list!

Captain of the Watch is sort of a relic from when my cube started its life with a heavier tribal focus (soldier was the white tribe) that has continued to hold its own since that knob got turned down. It acts more like a control finisher/stabilizer than a curve topper for an aggro deck. Same story with Geist-Honored Monk. They also make amazing flicker targets. Have you ever Vensered a Captain of the Watch? That shit feels amazing.

Future Sight is one of my favorite cards of all time. I think the thing that makes it do well in my list as opposed to others is that I have a good deal of devotion support. The three blue symbols do wonders for Master of Waves, Thassa, and Nykthos. Any control deck that can afford the mana loves it too, since the continual card advantage is insurmountable as long as you're not being run over.

Sylvan Primordial was Terastodon until very recently. I cut the big elephant for a few reasons, namely that I wanted to add a value reanimator package to black and didn't want to enable feel-bad starts where you just Diabolic Servitude one up on turn 4 and blow up your opponent's whole mana base. Primordial has been a much more fair replacement, and has been better in many situations, since you rarely have more than one real problem permanent you want to blow up, and saving a mana is a big deal, even when green ramp is as strong as it is in my cube (it's really strong).

Rubblebelt Maaka, Ghor-Clan Rampager, and Selesnya Charm are part of my ongoing effort to make combat tricks viable without having to completely neuter my removal suite. So far it's been working out pretty well. I've gotten blown out by it a couple times, but I've also been able to put my opponent on it and play around it, which is the sort of gameplay I was trying to encourage. The creature mode almost never gets used, but having it as a backup is important.

Seismic Assault unfortunately was an experiment that didn't work out. Like I said, I tried to support devotion strategies with it in addition to Loam strategies, but they just weren't good enough to justify the mana cost. If it was 1RR it would be 1000% more playable. I even assembled the dream version of the deck and it still didn't feel powerful enough. I cut the whole package and haven't missed it.

Deadeye Navigator is a recent addition that I haven't seen in play yet. I have high hopes, though, considering my love of flickering shenanigans.

Phyrexian Plaguelord has been an absolute house every time it's hit the table. You can have a completely respectable board, and then Plaguelord shows up with a Gravecrawler, Bloodsoaked Champion, or a Reassembling Skeleton, and all of a sudden two turns later you're staring at an empty board wondering where the hell all your creatures went.

Mul Daya Channelers have been interesting. When either mode is turned on, they feel completely unfair, but in different ways. When they're not turned on, they're the definition of mediocrity, but I'd say they're turned on a good 80-85% of the time. I'm not sure I approve of that level of swinginess, and have considered swapping Elvish Archdruid back in their place, but for now they get to stay. They're especially good in green/blue where you get more top of library manipulation, though I'm somewhat light on that front. They're also pretty great with scrylands, which I have in abundance.

I've only seen the Reveilark/Karmic Guide combo assembled once so far, but it was pretty freaking devastating when it was. It hasn't been too oppressive thus far, and there's incidental graveyard hate that's targeted at the sacrifice deck that hits the combo too, so I don't foresee it being a problem, but if it does become an issue, Karmic Guide is an easy cut (I <3 Reveilark and it would take some serious convincing to get me to cut it).
 
After some deliberation, and after reading Chris Taylor's post in the FRF spoiler thread about how blue's low drops suck, I've decided to mess with my blue section yet again. I've cut a bunch of dorky underpowered aggro creatures/curve fillers and replaced them with spells and enchantments. I'm fine with blue being a more traditionally controlling color now that I've come to terms with it. This is also sort of a first wave of changes in anticipation of adding a bunch of sweet new prowess cards once FRF comes out. I also decided that I didn't like a couple pieces in my Golgari section, since I thought about it and realized that I'd never seen them in play, so I'm trying out a couple other cards instead and seeing if they get any traction.

OUT


IN
 
Got to do a couple drafts back to back today with a full 8 people, which was a nice treat in spite of the bad weather. I posted the winning decks in the 3-0 thread, but here they are again:

Here's a UR spells deck that crushed all comers:








And here's a sweet black devotion list that wrecked house in spite of two other people solidly in black:








[/quote]

The first draft we had:
Jund midrange <- me, who ended up 2-1, losing to the Rb aggro deck
Naya midrange
Rb aggro
Jeskai control
UR spells <- winner by a wide margin
UW control splash green for Glare of Subdual
BG midrange
4c pile of stuff

The second draft we had:
BR aggro <- me at 2-1 again, losing to the black devotion deck
Another BR aggro deck, this one more focused on sacrifice synergies
UR spells
Black devotion splash a little white <- this deck was deliciously degenerate and crushed
Rw goblins running 15 lands and Gisela for some reason.
Blue devotion splash green for Kiora and Sagu Mauler <- this did reasonably well, despite my cuts this morning
And 2 nonred 4c goodstuff decks, neither of which did particularly well

This is the first time I've had a draft recently and I haven't felt the need to make sweeping changes, which means I think the cube is in a pretty good spot at the moment. Got a chance to see Deadeye Navigator in action, and it was spicy as promised. At one point it was soulbonded with a Man-o'-War, a Duplicant, and a Blade Splicer, and I heard it compared to Aetherling for being hard to kill. I had Freyalise in my Jund deck, and I only drew her twice, but she was a really solid value engine the one time she hit the table and drew a counterspell the other time.
 
This is the first time I've had a draft recently and I haven't felt the need to make sweeping changes, which means I think the cube is in a pretty good spot at the moment.

I lied. I was sitting around this afternoon and decided to flip through the cube, and I started pulling out cards which hadn't really hit the table or just felt underwhelming or out of place when they did.

I'm not really happy with Pain Seer, but I don't really have a comparable attacking black 2-drop to replace it with. I don't want to shell out for Bob, and Blood Scrivener looks even worse. I don't want to replace it with something bland like Vampire Interloper, though. Any suggestions?

Anyway, here are the changes:

OUT


IN


Gideon had to go because he is just too oppressive with his giant ass loyalty. Liliana Vess gets to come in as a late game value engine instead of Harvester of Souls, who was just kinda mediocre. Strangleroot Geist and Experiment One came back because even though my green section is not particularly aggressive, Rancor was getting picked like 11-13th, and that just doesn't feel right. Stompy was more viable when they were around, and I've got one regular who is obsessed with it, so I've added some more support. Hokori is in on a probationary basis as a tool for white tempo decks or control decks with lots of walkers. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that putting Winter Orb on legs makes it less stupid to play against.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
At the risk of sounding like a nagging mom, I'd speculate that the reason that Rancor goes so late in your cube is because you don't have adequate fixing for aggro. In general, cube designers have had a rough go of making G/x aggro work. However, X/g aggro tends to be more feasible, and decks like these are where Rancor tends to be best. It's hard to overhaul green to turn it into one of the predominant aggro colours overnight, but cards like Curse of Predation, Vengevine, Mayor of Avabruck, Tarmogoyf, and Boon Satyr - just as examples - can make green a healthy supporting player in an aggro role. If you want that to succeed, though, you need to start giving players Llanowar Wastes and Windswept Heaths and such.

Ok. I promise this is the last time I'll bang the same drum in this thread. Consider my case made.
 
At the risk of sounding like a nagging mom, I'd speculate that the reason that Rancor goes so late in your cube is because you don't have adequate fixing for aggro. In general, cube designers have had a rough go of making G/x aggro work. However, X/g aggro tends to be more feasible, and decks like these are where Rancor tends to be best. It's hard to overhaul green to turn it into one of the predominant aggro colours overnight, but cards like Curse of Predation, Vengevine, Mayor of Avabruck, Tarmogoyf, and Boon Satyr - just as examples - can make green a healthy supporting player in an aggro role. If you want that to succeed, though, you need to start giving players Llanowar Wastes and Windswept Heaths and such.

Ok. I promise this is the last time I'll bang the same drum in this thread. Consider my case made.

Alright. For the sake of argument, let's say I do proxy up 10 fetches and slot them in. Which land cycle do I cut? Obviously not the shocks, and I already like where the pain lands are at. I love the utility the temples give you, but I'm not married to it. I also like the versatility of the tri-lands, but I understand the fetches are very versatile too. The buddy lands? I dunno. In general I've been satisfied with my aggro mana bases, and I'm looking to make aggro viable, not dominant which is what it seems like it is in a lot of other Riptide cubes, or at least that's the impression I've gotten.

Meanwhile, I'm not looking to make green a primary aggro color, and X/g aggro decks would be exactly what I'm looking for. They used to show up, but they disappeared a few updates ago. I may be reading too much into it, since I'm already running Curse, Mayor, and Boom Satyr, but I think a little more support is needed for them to start showing up again.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
The U/R deck you posted in the winners' thread was sweet, but... man, that mana base. Fourteen basics feels a little dicey in a deck that's splitting its colours pretty evenly down the middle. For a brew as impressive as that one, the mana could stand to be better.

Improving your cube fixing wouldn't take your aggro decks into the realm of dominant, as your cube naturally skews midrange right now. But better untapped duals would give aggro a little bit of a boost, to put them on more even footing. Heck, every archetype benefits from improved mana - even control!

The Temples are very control-friendly lands, but pretty mediocre for aggro, enough that those are the ones I'd target for a swap with the fetches. If that's not your thing, though, the M10/ISD check lands would be next on my list.

Yeah, looking at your list, G/x aggro isn't very well supported, but that's par for the course for most every cube. If you want X/g aggro to be a thing, I'd recommend also adding Wolfir Silverheart, and perhaps Creeperhulk. These are decent high-end aggro finishers that don't require a base green deck to curve into.
 
Ooh. Creeperhulk is spicy. I didn't even know that card existed. I'll think about the lands. I put the question to our MtG facebook group and people seemed to be happy with the way the mana is now, but also weren't opposed to proxying in a bunch of fetches. I think I'm gonna leave things the way they are now, because I'm feeling somewhat lazy about it, but I have been keeping a close eye on the mana since I originally posted the thread.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
To echo Eric a little bit in regards to strangleroot geist and experiment one: I don't think those are particularly good cards to patch in. Not horrible by any stretch, but a bit narrow without a focused effort on green aggro. Strangleroot really benefits from good mana due to its CC, and experiment one can be left feeling a bit left out without a density of green one drops to pull someone into base green aggro.

How has wild nactl been? I was never a fan of that card because its essentially a tri-color card. It seems like it would suffer without the fetches.

Cuts look fine to me, though I rather like brimstone volley and ghost quarter. Let me know how rogue's passage works for you; I ran that card for a little while back in the day, but it never really caught on for some reason.
 
How has wild nactl been? I was never a fan of that card because its essentially a tri-color card. It seems like it would suffer without the fetches.

I have no idea. I did another round of changes this morning based on facebook feedback that I haven't documented here yet, and Nacatl was added in that round. I expect it will be a 2/2 most of the time, but if I'm wrong I can swap it out for Nettle Sentinel or the new 1-drop mythic from FRF or something.

Cuts look fine to me, though I rather like brimstone volley and ghost quarter. Let me know how rogue's passage works for you; I ran that card for a little while back in the day, but it never really caught on for some reason.


I like Brimstone Volley too, but I almost never saw it cast for some odd reason. Ghost Quarter was in based on the fact I had a colorless spot and didn't really know what to do with it, and I decided to see if Rogue's Passage did anything instead.
 
Alright, here are the updates based on the feedback I got from facebook (and some of the discussion above):

OUT


IN


Basically the feedback I got was that I had a few too many spells that did exactly the same thing, and they wanted a few more variety of effects. There is also a fierce debate over whether Nicol Bolas and Chromanticore should be in the cube. They get to stay based on inertia for now, but they have a target on their heads.

I'm bringing in Phenax to test him out to find out if he's GRBS or not. He's got a short leash on, and at the first sign of trouble he's out of there.
 
Got to do a big all day cubing binge yesterday. We ran a friend of mine's powered cube twice and mine once. Here's what everyone drafted (6 man):

UW tempo <-- Drafted by yours truly, who finally went 3-0 with his own damn cube
Ru aggro <-- who should have beaten me if the guy was a better pilot
4c stuff <-- this guy tries the same strategy every time with my cube and it rarely works out
WB aggro
WG humans <-- this deck was terrifying, and I had to get tricky as hell to beat it
Grixis control <-- this deck felt 1 or 2 win conditions off from being really strong

Here's my winning deck:









It was deliciously tricky. My favorite play was when I was being attacked by two 5/5's, flashing in Restoration Angel to flicker my Sower of Temptation, stealing one of the 5/5's and using it to block the other.

Phenax and Tortured Existence were failures. Phenax got first picked but left in the sideboard since there simply wasn't the support in the cube to make him good. Tortured Existence just tabled and tabled until it went 15th. There's a few more underperforming cards that I'm gonna cut, but I need to think of replacements for them first.
 
I proxied up a bunch of FRF cards to test and rounded up some people to cube in lieu of FNM. We only got a couple rounds in before two of the guys had to leave, but we had some sweet decks. We had:

Grb Ramp topping off with Ugin <-- Me
Mardu Bombardment <--This definitely sacrificed Humble Defector for value more than once. It was sweet.
UW tempo <-- this had Monastery Mentor and Soulfire Grand Master, but I didn't get a good look at the deck in action.
UR devotion <-- This somehow managed to run both Master of Waves and Fanatic of Mogis and made it work. Keranos was a creature at one point.
GW aggro
Mono Red Aggro

Here were the two decks with the best records that I posted in the 3-0 thread:


Old School Mono Red










Grb Ramp









Finally, here's a list of the changes I made:

OUT


IN
 
Temporal Trespass? I'm not sure I'd play that card if it had "affinity for draft commons in my collection"

Snrk. I don't expect a lot of these to stay. In fact, I already cut Soulfire Grand Master and Battle Brawler (and a bunch of other stuff that I haven't gotten around to writing an update post for yet), but I'm willing to experiment. I mean, I wouldn't have thought delve Ancestral Recall would have been playable and I was super wrong about that. Let's see how delve Time Walk goes.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Snrk. I don't expect a lot of these to stay. In fact, I already cut Soulfire Grand Master and Battle Brawler (and a bunch of other stuff that I haven't gotten around to writing an update post for yet), but I'm willing to experiment. I mean, I wouldn't have thought delve Ancestral Recall would have been playable and I was super wrong about that. Let's see how delve Time Walk goes.

I'll admit, I was being mean there, but still. I think a 2UU time walk would be nice, but UUU time walk looks a little too hard in my opinion, and this is much worse than that.

damn though. I opened a foil soulfire grand master at the prerelease, and while TCG says it's 75$, people say it's on it's way down.

Clearly more people need to play it to drive the price up so I can sell :D
 
Top