No, I'm convinced its ham handed but I'm sort of sticking to formula. I was originally just going to run 2 raptors, but when I looked at some of the pairs I just didn't find an easy out like UR and WU, where tokens help glue together the delver and other respective one drops. I felt like a deck like UG benefits from having a card that cares about creatures, but possibly I could just cut down to 2. Delver has been super-popular these few drafts though so I feel confident that if I have to choose one to triple up on its delver.
Rasmus Riptide Cube (360 Unpowered)
- Thread starter Rasmus Källqvist
- Start date
Yeah, FSR hit the nail on the head. Putting three of the most important one drop in each colour gives that aggro strategy a strong definition, and tells your drafters that the archetype is strongly supported. At the same time, though, Delver of Secrets and Cloudfin Raptor are almost a complete nonbo with each other. Evolve wants lots and lots of bodies; Delver wants lots and lots of spells. I would probably start by supporting only one of the two aggro decks, and going harder on that theme, until you're sure that it can stand on its own.
edit: oops I only saw FSR's post and not your follow-up comment
edit: oops I only saw FSR's post and not your follow-up comment
That sounds fair, I can probably let the total equilibrium of the color pairs rest a bit and just live with the fact that blue and green won't really have the same kind of proactive plans, so that I can get completely suprised when some players just goes and 3-0's a UGx aggro deck.
So I went and looked at how each combination of one drops could give me ideas on how the color pairs play out, so that the themes I give them guides you towards a position where either color's one drop looks inciting. I've been trying to be mindful of things like champion of the parish and experiment one triggers, so that the archetype-hooks aren't nonbos. As a disclaimer, this is not really a planned in-out with my current cube list but rather the foundation for a revamped one.
WU - human token tempo; flip delver, trigger some prowess and grow champion
UB - pox delver, using blacks symmetrical sac effects to keep the opponent on the back foot
BR - threaten sac to get past blockers
RG - no super clear idea here more than the GR stompy, and maybe some trample stuff
GW - both one drops are human, so a lord comes and pump the little kids
WB - dying humans; recur bloodsoaked to trigger champion of the parish while getting zombie tokens
BG - both one drops can be tough to get rid off, but I'd like to tie it together by utilizing that somehow
GU - sadly delver and experiment one sort of are nonbos, but both U/g and G/u could like edric
UR - stromkirk and delver both like to keep getting in while the opponent is harassed with bounce and burn
RW - token wide aggro
WR has left me kind of clueless. WR tokens sounds pretty good, but can I make anyone interested in running both champion and stromkirk in the same deck more than just "their one drops in my colors"? Maybe the token stuff, partially townsfolk, can help tie things together. This actually underscores a pretty important thing as well, that I need to make sure that a red token theme and the stromkirk plan can be married somehow, but they both sort of tie into the steal and sac plan. I (probably more likely wizards) differentiate between red and black saccing by giving red burn as a trade off for the dead body, whereas black does a bunch of other things.
For UG, I might just let there be one or two cloudfin raptors as a blue evolver, almost running it as a UG gold card. It feels much more like a blue aggro support card than something that carries the color by itself, in the way that delver does.
WU - human token tempo; flip delver, trigger some prowess and grow champion
UB - pox delver, using blacks symmetrical sac effects to keep the opponent on the back foot
BR - threaten sac to get past blockers
RG - no super clear idea here more than the GR stompy, and maybe some trample stuff
GW - both one drops are human, so a lord comes and pump the little kids
WB - dying humans; recur bloodsoaked to trigger champion of the parish while getting zombie tokens
BG - both one drops can be tough to get rid off, but I'd like to tie it together by utilizing that somehow
GU - sadly delver and experiment one sort of are nonbos, but both U/g and G/u could like edric
UR - stromkirk and delver both like to keep getting in while the opponent is harassed with bounce and burn
RW - token wide aggro
WR has left me kind of clueless. WR tokens sounds pretty good, but can I make anyone interested in running both champion and stromkirk in the same deck more than just "their one drops in my colors"? Maybe the token stuff, partially townsfolk, can help tie things together. This actually underscores a pretty important thing as well, that I need to make sure that a red token theme and the stromkirk plan can be married somehow, but they both sort of tie into the steal and sac plan. I (probably more likely wizards) differentiate between red and black saccing by giving red burn as a trade off for the dead body, whereas black does a bunch of other things.
For UG, I might just let there be one or two cloudfin raptors as a blue evolver, almost running it as a UG gold card. It feels much more like a blue aggro support card than something that carries the color by itself, in the way that delver does.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
How has the UB pox deck worked out?
I've tried the UW humans deck before, mixing delver with champion. I didn't have much success with it, because the two decks are kind of at opposite extremes: champion wants lots of humans to trigger it, while delver wants a more spell based deck (or more TOL manipulation).
Stromkirk noble will be fine with champion. There is a natural strategic intersection, because champion represents vertical growth, but the most powerful way to pump him is via townsfolk, which pushes you into horizontal growth territory. Rally the peasents is probably the best cheap non-enchantment anthem effect, and its flashback naturally pushes you into W/R.
Double strike effects (which i.m.o should be sorcery speed) can be a neat way to spice those decks up, and tie them tighter together. If the deck is drafted and built right, it can shift from building up a board state to kill you with anthems, to building up a single champion or vampire and killing you with a big double strike hit. You can also run double strike cards in the B/R decks, which use sacrifice effects to create vertical growth in temporary bursts.
I've tried the UW humans deck before, mixing delver with champion. I didn't have much success with it, because the two decks are kind of at opposite extremes: champion wants lots of humans to trigger it, while delver wants a more spell based deck (or more TOL manipulation).
Stromkirk noble will be fine with champion. There is a natural strategic intersection, because champion represents vertical growth, but the most powerful way to pump him is via townsfolk, which pushes you into horizontal growth territory. Rally the peasents is probably the best cheap non-enchantment anthem effect, and its flashback naturally pushes you into W/R.
Double strike effects (which i.m.o should be sorcery speed) can be a neat way to spice those decks up, and tie them tighter together. If the deck is drafted and built right, it can shift from building up a board state to kill you with anthems, to building up a single champion or vampire and killing you with a big double strike hit. You can also run double strike cards in the B/R decks, which use sacrifice effects to create vertical growth in temporary bursts.
Have you ran any other effects than assault strobe? I haven't had a chance to play any of this, so the UB delver is just a hypothesis. I was thinking of running triple gather the townsfolk but now I'm wondering if that is even necessary.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
assault strobe and armed // dangerous.
I've also ran silverblade paladin, which is essentially a sorcery speed double strike effect, though in another color and much more powerful.
I've also ran silverblade paladin, which is essentially a sorcery speed double strike effect, though in another color and much more powerful.
Triple Gather the Townsfolk? I don't know about that. I'm at the point where I'm even considering cutting the singleton I have because it's so lackluster. I've found that the best way to maximize Champion of the Parish is to just bleed the human typing across colors, specifically in the lower slots of the curve. Unless you want consistent 3/3 Champions for the aggro decks you're building, Gathers aren't really necessary. Going Champion into two one-drops or two more humans over two turns is enough to apply early pressure. Just running good human cards is often enough to generate value and grow it to a reasonable size. I've got the following:
As you can see, there are a ton of playable humans, especially with the cards we've gotten from Khans block. Personally, I feel that Gather is a very sub-optimal card unless you have explicit ways to reward your players for going so wide. Otherwise, I'd just look into running sweet humans to push your drafters towards using that archetype. I don't really think you need to use slots on Gather when most human decks are usually better off just committing to the board with actual cards with better bodies and sometimes relevant effects. Usually, they end up being way more useful than two 1/1 tokens.
The way I see it, the entire value of Gather is tied up in Champion (unless you have anthem effects). You need the Champion for Gather to be a good card that generates value b/c otherwise it's just a 2 mana sorcery that makes 2 1/1s (I've never ever seen Fateful Hour happen, ever). That's just not very good. It's cool to have that sort of effect here and there as incentives, but you don't have cards that are completely dependent on drawing and playing another one to accrue max value. It's nice when it's incidental, like lifegain tacked onto cards growing Pridemates, but I don't like cards that explicitly need to be played one way to have it be effective.
White:
Blue:
Black:
Red:
Green:
Multicolor
Blue:
Black:
Red:
Green:
Multicolor
The way I see it, the entire value of Gather is tied up in Champion (unless you have anthem effects). You need the Champion for Gather to be a good card that generates value b/c otherwise it's just a 2 mana sorcery that makes 2 1/1s (I've never ever seen Fateful Hour happen, ever). That's just not very good. It's cool to have that sort of effect here and there as incentives, but you don't have cards that are completely dependent on drawing and playing another one to accrue max value. It's nice when it's incidental, like lifegain tacked onto cards growing Pridemates, but I don't like cards that explicitly need to be played one way to have it be effective.
I've never said the townsfolks were specifically for the champion, but I get your point. I'll keep my eyes on them. I felt like they'd serve an intersection between the human themes and the token themes, feeding different decks. I'll see if I have other options to consider as well though.
Yeah, I feel you. The idea of Gather the Townsfolk is often better than what the card actually does most of the time. You think of the awesome plays where you grow a Champion by 2, but what usually happens is that you're left with a Dragon Fodder while facing real cards that actually do things on their own.
I was more so thinking of the ability to play sacrifice decks and token decks with the same cards, but probably I can just run raise the alarm and some other 2-3 cmc token maker (I count spectral as a 2WW card)
For reference these are the sacdeck-support I'm considering in white (not counting tokens):
For reference these are the sacdeck-support I'm considering in white (not counting tokens):
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, thats pretty much the compromise you make: giving up instant speed or flying in order to have the tokens read human. If you have the anthems or cards that benefit from death triggers it can be a pretty reasonable compromise as gather becomes much less narrow.
What I have liked about it, is that it represents a lot of different aggro strategies in one piece: vertical growth, horizontal growth, and creating 5 power on the board turn 2 does feel very aggro-combo. Its also very fun to do, which can be important in attracting aggro players. You do have to balance how live it is without champion however, and that is very important.
Of the cards that you have listed, sun titan and rev. are great. Academy Rector will depend on the power of the targets. Doomed Traveler and Loyal Cathar, I think you could probably do better. Cathar is kind of an annoying card because of the underwhelming stats and
, and doomed traveler, while not horrible, is a pretty meaningless body on its own.
Running all of them together, I don't like, because of the power band issue they represent. Going back to the worry over good stuff, look at that discrepancy in power laid out above: 2 cards that aren't good enough in pauper vs. 2 cards that are just solid good cards. Imagine that those cards above are part of a pack you have to pick from--pretty stark choices.
What I have liked about it, is that it represents a lot of different aggro strategies in one piece: vertical growth, horizontal growth, and creating 5 power on the board turn 2 does feel very aggro-combo. Its also very fun to do, which can be important in attracting aggro players. You do have to balance how live it is without champion however, and that is very important.
Of the cards that you have listed, sun titan and rev. are great. Academy Rector will depend on the power of the targets. Doomed Traveler and Loyal Cathar, I think you could probably do better. Cathar is kind of an annoying card because of the underwhelming stats and
, and doomed traveler, while not horrible, is a pretty meaningless body on its own.Running all of them together, I don't like, because of the power band issue they represent. Going back to the worry over good stuff, look at that discrepancy in power laid out above: 2 cards that aren't good enough in pauper vs. 2 cards that are just solid good cards. Imagine that those cards above are part of a pack you have to pick from--pretty stark choices.
Rector so far has been amazing, so I'm running that more incidentally as a sac support. Cathar is probably the weak link, but I'm surprised you don't like doomed traveler. I've seen it ran in much higher powered lists. I know CML has sung its praise.
In regards to the townsfolk, maybe I can look into how the other cards will utilise them and see if I can keep them in. Right now I'm more in favor of keeping interesting aggro cards and lowering power rather than the other way around.
In regards to the townsfolk, maybe I can look into how the other cards will utilise them and see if I can keep them in. Right now I'm more in favor of keeping interesting aggro cards and lowering power rather than the other way around.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Its not bad, but when you go from playing it in pauper lists and than playing it in something higher power, its hard to shake that feeling like you are playing with half a card.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Believe it or not, doomed traveler has been a pretty decent one drop in my experience. I love how it makes one toughness attackers, edicts and sweepers bad. I mean, compared to Hallowed Spiritkeeper, one token and a useless body might seem horrible, but when something can be cast on turn 1 I'm willing to accept certain compromises. The flying on the token is key for benefiting form equipment/auras. I've been in plenty of games where seeing Doomed Traveler on the other side of the table has really screwed up my lines of play.
I agree that Cathar is lacking, when you are a 2 drop you don't get nearly as much leeway.
I agree that Cathar is lacking, when you are a 2 drop you don't get nearly as much leeway.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Thats a reasonable position. Sort of a young wolf which is just good enough to make it into higher power lists?
How would you feel about a slightly more impactful body.
Say,
Doomed Savannah Lion
creature - Cat
2/1
When doomed savannah lion dies put a 1/1 white flying spirit token into play.
Too good, or just right to escape that feeling of "this card was just good enough to make the cut" that I get from traveler?
How would you feel about a slightly more impactful body.
Say,
Doomed Savannah Lion
creature - Cat
2/1
When doomed savannah lion dies put a 1/1 white flying spirit token into play.
Too good, or just right to escape that feeling of "this card was just good enough to make the cut" that I get from traveler?
I think Doomed Traveler is just fine on its own as is. It's a card that plays better than it looks most of the time, even gets through for like 2-3 points of damage on occasion just because your opponent doesn't want to give you a flyer. I've always been pretty happy to draft Doomed Traveler in lists that could make use of it. It's a fine chump blocker that's good for two blocks most of the time. Gets pretty gross if you run sac effects and either Smokestack or Braids, Cabal Minion (I run both).
A 2/1 is giving you a nice body + another one afterwards, might actually be too good. I mean, you could apply pressure and force a block and not be down at all.
A 2/1 is giving you a nice body + another one afterwards, might actually be too good. I mean, you could apply pressure and force a block and not be down at all.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
A Halfway point between Cathar and Traveller might be alright, like W1 2/1 --> 1/1 flier
The Doomed Lion would also be less pushed if the token which triggered on morbid were less evasive, say a 1/1 or 1/2 cat spirit perhaps.
There's some cool stuff going on here, I'm gunna keep my eye on this thread. Ghor-Clan Rampager is an awesome fit with Stromkirk Noble, I'm definitely putting that back in!
I'm very curious how your WB aggro decks will work out, and the UB pox idea as well. Keep us posted.
Earlier you wrote that you wanted to "declaw control" and get people drafting aggro. In the traditional rock-paper-scissors of magic, midrange is the problem for aggro, while aggro should be hitting control very hard. I ended up concentrating on my aggro so much over the last few years that now control is weak, and I need to fix it somehow. Control is awesome, and players love it. Just be careful about that.
Right now I'm thinking that random midrange decks with good creatures are the most boring, and nobody likes to draft or play them. But weird brewy midrange decks, like graveyard decks or Birthing Pod decks are super awesome to draft and play. That's where I'm trying to get my midrange.
I'm very curious how your WB aggro decks will work out, and the UB pox idea as well. Keep us posted.
Earlier you wrote that you wanted to "declaw control" and get people drafting aggro. In the traditional rock-paper-scissors of magic, midrange is the problem for aggro, while aggro should be hitting control very hard. I ended up concentrating on my aggro so much over the last few years that now control is weak, and I need to fix it somehow. Control is awesome, and players love it. Just be careful about that.
Right now I'm thinking that random midrange decks with good creatures are the most boring, and nobody likes to draft or play them. But weird brewy midrange decks, like graveyard decks or Birthing Pod decks are super awesome to draft and play. That's where I'm trying to get my midrange.
I think I was quoting someone on that, so maybe what I really should've written was declaw durdly midrange. I like the idea of making the goofier brew decks the midrange thing, like the stuff you mentioned (pod and etc), and let aggro and control be a little bit more just powerful and linear?
Not to say there wont be themes, but that gives some nice contrasts in the roshambo. Aggro goes fast and plays around a horizontal and/or vertical theme, control gets to play some really powerful big spells and carve out their card advantage and midrange gets to go really deep on some niche theme. That'll maybe make it easier to see what is a good, from this template, card to give midrange?
Like, thragtusk and huntmaster are probably fine, but run the risk of just being good stuff, so I could easily cut that and run something more thematic and focus on finding fun stuff to do in the same powerband as the aggro and control decks.
Not to say there wont be themes, but that gives some nice contrasts in the roshambo. Aggro goes fast and plays around a horizontal and/or vertical theme, control gets to play some really powerful big spells and carve out their card advantage and midrange gets to go really deep on some niche theme. That'll maybe make it easier to see what is a good, from this template, card to give midrange?
Like, thragtusk and huntmaster are probably fine, but run the risk of just being good stuff, so I could easily cut that and run something more thematic and focus on finding fun stuff to do in the same powerband as the aggro and control decks.
Alright! So I'm sort of back into cubing again after a few weeks break. I posted a a deck in the 3-0 thread, basically stromkirk deck wins with three copies of the card and some sweet red cards.
I'm going to conclude my little experiment as a proof that you can at least build really good aggressive decks in the cube. I'm going to look into making sure that all colors have cards that can actually block stromkirk since they ignore humans and me simultaneously trying to support different human decks and by that favoring humans over other tribes in certain spots.
I also feel confident in reintroducing some sweepers again, and I'll try to look into making control a fun thing to draft.
I'm going to conclude my little experiment as a proof that you can at least build really good aggressive decks in the cube. I'm going to look into making sure that all colors have cards that can actually block stromkirk since they ignore humans and me simultaneously trying to support different human decks and by that favoring humans over other tribes in certain spots.
I also feel confident in reintroducing some sweepers again, and I'll try to look into making control a fun thing to draft.
http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/18472
Did a smaller overhaul with the cube with some new additions, bolt and path and some dragons of tarkir cards. Very unsure of what I want to do with the cube as a cube-designer right now, since I feel like I either need to just sit down and figure out what the cube should be about or add more splashy effects and expensive cards since right now it just feels kind of dull? Might just be me being so familiar with it and it being a pretty by-the-books riptide cube.
It's not new enough to feel like a haphazardly put together noob-cube full of possibilities and wonder and it's not really polished or full of flash enough to feel like a proper 'regular' cube. I'd much rather feel like I have a direction. The question is is that direction to go lower or higher in power?.
Feel free to draft the cube and share the decks you've built! Have I mistakenly put too high an emphasis on certain themes? Are there a huge lack of something I should add? Did I nail some aspect of the cube and it felt good to draft it? Let me hear!
Did a smaller overhaul with the cube with some new additions, bolt and path and some dragons of tarkir cards. Very unsure of what I want to do with the cube as a cube-designer right now, since I feel like I either need to just sit down and figure out what the cube should be about or add more splashy effects and expensive cards since right now it just feels kind of dull? Might just be me being so familiar with it and it being a pretty by-the-books riptide cube.
It's not new enough to feel like a haphazardly put together noob-cube full of possibilities and wonder and it's not really polished or full of flash enough to feel like a proper 'regular' cube. I'd much rather feel like I have a direction. The question is is that direction to go lower or higher in power?.
Feel free to draft the cube and share the decks you've built! Have I mistakenly put too high an emphasis on certain themes? Are there a huge lack of something I should add? Did I nail some aspect of the cube and it felt good to draft it? Let me hear!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This was a fun draft. I had some hard cuts to make at the end, which I like.
Oh man, this looks like so much fun to play:
Onderzeeboot's Mardu Aggro draft from CubeTutor.com
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Oh man, this looks like so much fun to play:
Onderzeeboot's Selesnya Blinkbot draft from CubeTutor.com
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This is personally the question that I struggle with the most. There are benefits both to going up and to going down in power level, and then there are drawbacks. I've opted to steadily ramp down the power on my cube, month after month, and remove some of the most oppressive cards in order to give breathing room to the second and third-tier cards, and that has been both fun and rewarding. At the same time, there's something to be said for having the raw power of a Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Bonfire of the Damned, or Grave Titan in your hand, knowing that you can't lose if you cast them (well, okay, you don't really want the Bonfire in your hand, so much as in your deck). There's a reason people enjoy fully powered cubes so much, because for every couple of non-games, you get some sweet, unique plays that are only possible when you run the most powerful, broken cards that Magic has to offer.
All that's to say is that I wish I could help you, but I guess I really can't. If you think your cube is too "generic Riptide-y", you gotta put your own personal stamp on it. Ditch the human theme for a double-strike equipment theme! Forgo the Birthing Pods in favour of enchantments and multiple Eidolon of Blossoms! As a starting point, it might help to think of your favourite constructed decks from other formats, whether that's standard, modern, or legacy, and consider how you'd port them over to your cube environment, and what changes you'd have to introduce to make them viable for drafting.