General Self-Sufficient Tribal Payoffs

LadyMapi

LadyMapi

I think that, if you're running Champ as a "self sufficient" card, you're in a cube where a 4/4 cantrip for {3}{B}{B} is an acceptable card, and where a Night's Whisper on a chonky body is pretty good on the off chance that you can scrape together a few more Vampires.

Contrast this with Neheb the Worthy, which is only incidentally a tribal card. Yeah, sure, it's a really strong lord for Minotaurs, but at the same time it's also a 4/2 first-striker that forces discard for 3 mana in a deck that wants to be hellbent.

That actually makes me think of Party Girl, who's a hasty bear with a card-advantage battalion effect... that happens to have a line about making Satyrs better.
 
sigh

sigh

LadyMapi said:
I think that, if you're running Champ as a "self sufficient" card, you're in a cube where a 4/4 cantrip for {3}{B}{B} is an acceptable card
Click to expand...
This effectively has to be the case, yes. Champ probably passes over this bar (hence my original supposition that it wouldn't have issues with tribal mis-drafting), but there are certainly similar tribal effects that do not pass over that bar.

Basically, some of these cards deserve a sharpie. It would do wonders for reading comprehension for basically no downside. Neheb is a perfect example.
 
japahn

japahn

I spent so long staring at this Neheb trying to figure our what you wanted to scratch off it:



Then I realized you meant:



I don't think I had ever thought about running it by itself. Seems like a sweet card in BR Madness.


I wrote about false signposts when talking about Bramblewood Paragon:
https://desolatelighthouse.wordpres...d-paragon-and-false-signposts-one-card-a-day/

It's all subjective and group-dependant, but, like Gallia, I don't think Neheb is a false signpost for most groups because Minotaurs are so niche. Vampires, on the other hands, are a legitimate tribe, and Champion of Dusk definitely would send me the wrong way if I saw another two vampires on pack 1.
 
TekLazar

TekLazar

There's also the best

More high-powered than it looks, but I always love playing it even without an infinite myr gameplan, but

Also is a slow self-sufficient card.
 
ravnic

ravnic

LadyMapi said:
I think that, if you're running Champ as a "self sufficient" card, you're in a cube where a 4/4 cantrip for {3}{B}{B} is an acceptable card, and where a Night's Whisper on a chonky body is pretty good on the off chance that you can scrape together a few more Vampires.

Contrast this with Neheb the Worthy, which is only incidentally a tribal card. Yeah, sure, it's a really strong lord for Minotaurs, but at the same time it's also a 4/2 first-striker that forces discard for 3 mana in a deck that wants to be hellbent.

That actually makes me think of Party Girl, who's a hasty bear with a card-advantage battalion effect... that happens to have a line about making Satyrs better.
Click to expand...


Gallia is a great example why I think mis-signaling isn't that big of a deal. When I realised she was just the {R/G} Madness lord I was waiting for, I slam dunked her into my cube. But I was also worrying. Most of my players were newbies after all. Would they read the line about Satyrs and be frustrated because the lone Satyr Wayfinder didn't come their way? Would they splash black for Changeling Outcast? So I went to almost everyone who had drafted my cube in the last few weeks and asked them, in what kind of deck they would see her if they picked her early in the draft.

The newbies answered:

"Oh, probably aggro, as she is a 2/2 with haste."

"Hm, something where you'd be okay discarding cards? it has to be something working around that third ability."

"A deck with tokens I'd say. She wants you to attack with three or more creatures, right?"

The enfranchised player said:

"Oh, she's obviously great for your R/G aggro madness decks!"


The I asked all of them, after none said anything about the tribal ability, if they think, they could've been mislead by it. And everyone, from Mrs. Has-cubed-twice-before to Mr. I'm-playig-since-middle-school said "No!"

So why should I worry about something, that could in theory be problematic, when reality shows me it isn't?
 
sigh

sigh

Because you have solid evidence to back you up, in your specific playgroup, with a specific fringe tribal card I might add. Not everyone has that.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Sure, that's true. But maybe others can take this as a motivation to do the same, instead of denying a great cube addition. Ask a handful of players with different experience levels what they'd think because of that card. Noone can guarantee, that Champion of Dusk will never mislead a drafter, but if that card is just the 5-drop your cube needs, I think this is more important.
 
sigh

sigh

Yes totally. Asking your players about features of your cube is always a good idea. It just does need to be a consideration in selection, even if that consideration is "I should ask so-and-so and so-and-so about this". I personally think it would be less obvious on Champion that tribal isn't intended, as the entire effect is based around the tribal effect, whereas the satyr has the tribal effect as a throwaway line, similar to the Neheb mentioned. Really impossible to definitely prove it one way or the other, which is why people bring it up and will continue to bring it up, if only to flag someone that maybe they should check with their group feelings on tribal first.
 
ravnic

ravnic

The same is true for non-tribal effects. In the other thread, Japahn was worried, that his playgroup might expect a enchantment theme when he slots in Stone Haven Pilgrim as a (great) artifact payoff. I recommended playing it anyways, as he has quite a few enchantments in white and it is pure upside.

Now I'd also recommend aksing his playgroup about the card. And maybe I should also do it more often with certain cards.
 
sigh

sigh

ravnic said:
The same is true for non-tribal effects. In the other thread, Japahn was worried, that his playgroup might expect a enchantment theme when he slots in Stone Haven Pilgrim as a (great) artifact payoff. I recommended playing it anyways, as he has quite a few enchantments in white and it is pure upside.

Now I'd also recommend aksing his playgroup about the card. And maybe I should also do it more often with certain cards.
Click to expand...

I would consider the Pilgrim a tribal effect, especially if we are talking about stuff like "forest tribal" on this thread. It's a card that specifically mentions a certain subset of cards that powers it's effect. In the case of Pilgrim, most people will probably have good support in white just by the nature of white's removal. Doesn't change the fact that the card fundamentally behaves like a tribal card.
 
ravnic

ravnic

sigh said:
I would consider the Pilgrim a tribal effect, especially if we are talking about stuff like "forest tribal" on this thread. It's a card that specifically mentions a certain subset of cards that powers it's effect. In the case of Pilgrim, most people will probably have good support in white just by the nature of white's removal. Doesn't change the fact that the card fundamentally behaves like a tribal card.
Click to expand...


Yeah, but it is home in a tribe that every color in every cube has, not to mention the many colorless cards. That's much broader than humans even.
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

All this vampire talk has me thinking:

Turn 1 -> Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Turn 2 -> Elvish Visionary
Turn 3 -> Goblin Rabblemaster
Turn 4 -> Hellrider
Turn 5 -> Sun Titan or Mulldrifter
Turn 6 -> Noxious Gearhulk




Most of these are actually pretty decent on their own at lowerish power level (except Patron which is way too much).
That's not even counting the Bloodghast, Blood Artist, Cruel Celebrant, Falkenrath Noble, Drana, Liberator of Malakir that would make a token theme in BW and a sacrifice theme in RB.
 
japahn

japahn

Yeah, vampires were noted in Ixalan draft for being a tribe which didn't reward you so much for going deep into the tribe, but for building a generic WB deck with some vampire synergies. The key common payoff was Anointed Deacon, which worked well with Bishop's Soldier and Skymarch Aspirant. Not a self-sufficient payoff, but Vampires are a pretty good tribe to run an archetype that branches into other themes (lifegain, wide, fliers, tokens) and has both faster and slower versions.
 
sigh

sigh


(related to Rasmus' post above; it is a giant!)

This card is.... much better than I thought when I looked at it originally? You choose your counter at beginning of combat like luminarch aspirant, so right off the bat you can have a colorless 3 mana 4/4 the turn you cast it, a 3/3 flier, etc. etc. Wow.
 
LadyMapi

LadyMapi

I think the biggest drawback is that the counter is random. Otherwise it'd be a little too easy to assemble the Deathtouch + First Strike + Trample trifecta.
 
japahn

japahn

Crystalline Giant is pretty fun on Arena, hopefully the randomization and counters aren't too burdensome for paper magic. It's quite good, too - first block is with one counter, first attack is with two counters, and at that size all counter types are relevant (though trample is the worst).
 
Mondschwein

Mondschwein

Had it two times in Ikoria limited, played it out 4-5 times and everytime except once it got hexproof first lol
those were the easiest wins
 
sigh

sigh

If I counted right, it has 10 counter possibilities. Put some stickers on a D10 and go ham. Would get mildly annoying a few turns later, but I think not too much of a bother.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top