Dom Harvey
Contributor
Terese Nielsen does it again:
the greatest weave in the multiverse:
also my least favourite because I always think the hippo's leg is its bottom lip and the fox is a tongue, which makes it look a lot better:
Card/Deck Shit Thread: Planeswalker Tier List
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Terese Nielsen does it again:
the greatest weave in the multiverse:
also my least favourite because I always think the hippo's leg is its bottom lip and the fox is a tongue, which makes it look a lot better:
Planeswalkers I don't want to miss in my cube list are Chandra, Flamecaller, Kiora, Master of the Depths, Liliana, Heretical Healer, Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Kytheon, Hero of Akros. There are some other planeswalkers of which I'm not sure, though:
Ob Nixilis Reignited - is he too strong? his minus three is pretty good. I compare him to..
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - I really like him as a blue control walker generating value over time or tempo. would you say both share the same power level concerns? unconditional removal and bounce both are strong abilities and both are able to draw a lot of cards. how did those walkers in your cubes?
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - I want to support delve and delirium in my cube but I want my blue creature section to be balanced. I don't know if I should play this card which does a lot for the aforementioned archetype(s) or if I should just play cards like Snapcaster Mage, Looter il-Kor, Enclave Cryptologist and/or the new Wharf Infiltrator. I think Jace is stronger than all of them but I didn't draft with those cards too often (except the Looter il-Kor which is quite nice to have).
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh - the last of the flip-walkers. she's definitely playable in red aggro/tempo but the red three-slot has a lot more interesting cards to choose from, I think.
Tamiyo, Field Researcher - well designed and allows for a lot of decisions which lead to complex situations. However, I wonder if I want a three-coloured planeswalker in my list as Bolas and Sarkhan were pretty cool sometimes but also are potentially last picks because they're quite narrow. I fear Tamiyo might fall into the same category.
Ob Nixilis Reignited - is he too strong? his minus three is pretty good. I compare him to..
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - I really like him as a blue control walker generating value over time or tempo. would you say both share the same power level concerns? unconditional removal and bounce both are strong abilities and both are able to draw a lot of cards. how did those walkers in your cubes?
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - I want to support delve and delirium in my cube but I want my blue creature section to be balanced. I don't know if I should play this card which does a lot for the aforementioned archetype(s) or if I should just play cards like Snapcaster Mage, Looter il-Kor, Enclave Cryptologist and/or the new Wharf Infiltrator. I think Jace is stronger than all of them but I didn't draft with those cards too often (except the Looter il-Kor which is quite nice to have).
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh - the last of the flip-walkers. she's definitely playable in red aggro/tempo but the red three-slot has a lot more interesting cards to choose from, I think.
Tamiyo, Field Researcher - well designed and allows for a lot of decisions which lead to complex situations. However, I wonder if I want a three-coloured planeswalker in my list as Bolas and Sarkhan were pretty cool sometimes but also are potentially last picks because they're quite narrow. I fear Tamiyo might fall into the same category.
I might change my opinion as I cube with him more, but right now I'm a big fan of Ob Nixilis Reignited. He's on the strong side for a five mana card, but he does multiple things I like: he enables black control decks; he's powerful, but nowhere near oppressive; he defends himself, but not in an annoying token-spam way; and his plus one has a real cost, as control decks can't sit there and lose life forever without finding same way to recoup it. For those reasons, I want to give Jace, Unraveler of Secrets a try eventually, as I think they fill essentially the same role, though Jace's plus is better and his minus is a fair bit worse.
I really really like Ob Nixilis a lot more than I thought I would. He's not extremely exciting but he's just such a black card. Removal + a Phyrexian Arena effect on a card. He just puts in a tremendous amount of work on the field. And I love that Black Control is a thing instead of just having to go UW every time. The UB Control decks got a major boon with him and Dragonlord Silumgar in the last year. Also I have fond memories of my Laboratory Maniac deck I drafted a few months ago where he and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage became the dynamic duo to let me deck myself into winning.
Yeah, I've noticed exactly the same thing here. U/B was originally the control colour combination, back when I ran Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx, and other powerhouse cards. But since I removed them, that colour pair fell way back behind U/W as the dominant control deck. Only in the last couple of months is U/B making a resurgence again, thanks to some sweet finishers; Languish is a big part of that, too.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I need UB to do something and I rather miss the classic control decks. Are there other cards you would recommend for it (beyond even more planeswalkers)?
I've always been partial to "Lousy Reanimator" - Merfolk Looter or Enclave Cryptologist into Makeshift Mannequin or Dread Return - but I think I might be the only person on the planet who enjoys drafting this archetype only to go 1-2 every other week.
What I like most about it is that a drafter can overlap reanimator with control as much or as little as they like: they can go completely control and ignore reanimator, completely 'combo' with very little board control, or some mixture of both.
What I like most about it is that a drafter can overlap reanimator with control as much or as little as they like: they can go completely control and ignore reanimator, completely 'combo' with very little board control, or some mixture of both.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Some of the
control all-stars over here. I see it about as often as control, and these are some of the bigger draws/incentives imho (aside from planeswalkers)
And as much as we shit on him/her, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is a very real reason to go into UB. Not sure it's healthy to balance a whole guild around that one card, but it is there.
Oops, misunderstood Dom's question, thought he was asking for more archetypes, as opposed to more cards.
Ashiok is probably the poster child for the category of "Three Drop Planeswalkers That Potentially Warp the Game Around Them". They're actively bad against some decks - hello, mono-red! - but when they're good, say against green midrange, they're good.
Ashiok is probably the poster child for the category of "Three Drop Planeswalkers That Potentially Warp the Game Around Them". They're actively bad against some decks - hello, mono-red! - but when they're good, say against green midrange, they're good.
Rune-scarred Demon can be good in UB control
I just tried out Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Nahiri, the Harbinger and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets in a mid-powered environment, and they all were miserable to play against.
This is interesting. How so? I can see Nahiri being miserable because of the high loyalty but the other two seem like they would be fine.
The games skewed too much to dealing with the PW's instead of just normal gameplay. The only way that they didn't take over the game was because another broken card in Dragonlord Silumgar.
If it was just an enchantment that gained incremental advantage like Starfield of Nyx, then even though it was still hard to deal with and you had to outrace before it's 'ultimate' went off, at least it didn't pad your life total by making creatures attack that way instead of at you. We were both in the low teens when these PWs started becoming a problem and it wasn't profitable to attack the player and just ballooned the game out when it didn't need to.
This could be solved by better removal and upping the power level, but that isn't what Chris was trying to accomplish here (I assume).
Also, that Dragonlord Silumgar stealing and ulti-ing my Nahiri getting an Entomber Exarch (with no creatures in his yard) shows that those cards are a bit out of place.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Dragonlord Silumgar broken? Are we playing the same game?
Yeah, I'm not sure about that statement either. When I hear broken, I think more along the lines of Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. I don't think Dragonlord Silumgar is close and has actually been a very fun card (damn near a staple for me) ever since it was first released. It's not a stone-cold finisher when it comes to closing out games, effectiveness is entirely dependent upon what you are facing with the value tied up in the Control Magic effect, a fine stabilizer in the late game with a big butt and deathtouch in the air, and grabbing opposing PWs that have begun to run away with games is hilarious. We cubed a bit earlier today (writeup incoming tomorrow?) and I almost stole a Ral Zarek on 7 loyalty until they hit the eject button with their own Into the Roil.
I'm also surprised by Chris mentioning Smalljani and SOI Jace. It's probably more a power level thing then, maybe just that walkers in general are too hard to interact with? From playing it in Standard, Jace has always seemed fair and has just been the blue reskin of Ob Nixilis Reignited. I've always found Ajani to be fair and one of the few payoff cards for aggressive white decks to attack on a different axis so I'm surprised it was seen as miserable to play against. It's usually been a counter distributor here before trying to close out games with a big hit off the minus ability. Unless they're sandbagging it in hand for a big turn, Ajani has usually had a pretty telegraphed play pattern from my experience.
I'm also surprised by Chris mentioning Smalljani and SOI Jace. It's probably more a power level thing then, maybe just that walkers in general are too hard to interact with? From playing it in Standard, Jace has always seemed fair and has just been the blue reskin of Ob Nixilis Reignited. I've always found Ajani to be fair and one of the few payoff cards for aggressive white decks to attack on a different axis so I'm surprised it was seen as miserable to play against. It's usually been a counter distributor here before trying to close out games with a big hit off the minus ability. Unless they're sandbagging it in hand for a big turn, Ajani has usually had a pretty telegraphed play pattern from my experience.
I think you pretty much nailed it on the head saying that it was hard to interact with in a low powered environment. I wonder if any of the bottom tiered walkers would be fine in low powered. Tibalt needs a home!
Also, I did misspeak when I said Silumgar was broken. It was just a bit overpowered for that format as my deck couldn't handle it. I mean, I run it in my own cube and have never had a problem with it. I think I was just bitter from the defeat
I think that Jace was the most powerful in the games we played. It provided card advantage, several turns of breathing room and ultimately gained some life when attacks could occur. The grid in which they are being played is closer to 2003-era (or just after ABU duals rotated) Extended in creature size compared to spell power. In another game, Ajani came down turn 3 and the blue-black deck has no interaction for many turns; the ultimate on an empty board could've easily killed me (as my creature removal was blanked).
I think only a Creeping Tar Pit saved me (which is also a silly card that I've cut since).