Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight

[Grillo_Parlante]

Mortivore is a good low power control finisher, where it can hold the line, growing off of spot removal, before eventually turning into the abyss and closing out the game. I also really like lumberknot and algae gharial in that role.

The other ones have more broad midrange applications. The main problem that style of card runs into is that you can chump it forever, so the ability to have evasion or trample is a huge deal. Lord of extinction is probably really bad, for that reason, but you are at least going to have some really impressive numbers off of it.

 

[Lucre]

I guess sometimes it's a pretty big idiot for 4 mana.

 

[James Stevenson]

Re: Think Twice
This could be a cool mechanic, like "2U, exile this card from your graveyard: Draw a card."

 

[Lucre]

It's so fucking expensive lol
Like you are only doing anything valuable once you've probably spent 5 mana. I wana like that card but it makes me sad.

 

[ahadabans]

Think Twice is better than it looks. I think it's really underrated. In the early game, it's cycle for 1U. Nothing wrong with that. Because it's an instant, you only cast it if you have free mana at the end of your opponent's turn. And later in the game it draws you another card. What more do you want from a card that costs 1U?

I'm perfectly happy to discard it early too because of the value later (flashback just rocks). And it does't really matter that it's overpriced later because at that point cards are worth more than mana. That additional utility is why I like Think Twice better than Impulse.

It's never the best card in your deck obviously, but it's a great role player.

Conventional wisdom says a card like Deep Analysis is much better (not disagreeing, but I think the gap is closer than advertised). It is certainly much better later in the game. But that is not the point at which most games are won or lost. On turn two, I can't do anything with Deep Analysis (unless I can discard it). Even on turn 4, it's sorcery so I forfeit any interaction with my opponent that turn (from cards in my hand) by tapping out early. Prior to the late game, I would much rather have think twice.

 

[RavebornMuse]

This has always been a fun card for me; what do you guys think of it?
(I hope I'm not posting too frequently.. )

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Yeah, I always liked it as well. Been a while since I cubed it though.

Don't worry about posting too much, most of the regulars have other things to do on the weekends, so it's always nice for the few of us lurking here to see another living soul

 

[kevin]

1. It's really good -- there's a reason why it's a Legacy/Vintage archetype

2. You need stuff to support it -- specifically, aggressive blue creatures at 1&2 CMC

3. It's skill testing and confusing for new players -- multiple times I've had my behind-on-board opponent cast it, break it, and quickly lose. Just keep that in mind.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Standstill is a good card. You don't necessarily need lots of aggressive blue creatures (it helps, but there aren't many options), as long as you have reasons for decks that are playing aggressive creatures in other colors to want to play blue. Stuff like Mana Vortex, Silent Departure, Treasure Cruise, Man-o-War, Repeal and Repulse along with daze/force spike are some things that make Standstill look more attractive. And manlands get silly with it.

 

[James Stevenson]

Standstill is pretty much riptide lab on a weekend. Post, by all means!

 

[Diakonov]

I run a lot of manlands, so in my cube it's great. As FSR said, any aggro deck playing blue would want one.

 

[Tyrole]

1. What is your existing as-fan for removal?

This is a great question, and I would love to hear some answers on how much people are running. Obviously there are a ton of other factors, but as-fan might be the most important.

I have a "non-tempo" (basically everything that is killing, not bouncing) removal as-fan of 2.43. What is everyone else sitting at?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Sewer Nemesis has one big advantage over cards like mortivore and splinterfright: It's WAAAY bigger.
Since it doesn't specify creature card and grows on it's own by milling whoever it's pointed at, I've found that its usually about 3-4 points bigger than mortivore would be at the time, even though it only counts one yard.
I like it since it's both a payoff and incentive for a graveyard strategy as well. If you have the kind of cube where you want kessig cagebreakers to be good, run it. worked better than bonehoard ever did for me.

 

[Peter LaCara]

I <3 Standstill. I run it in my cube, though I only have a couple manlands and pretty anemic blue 1's and 2's. It's still really powerful, though highly, highly skill testing. I think I've seen bad players lose to their own Standstill as much as I've seen good players crush with one.

 

[Eric Chan]

This is a great question, and I would love to hear some answers on how much people are running. Obviously there are a ton of other factors, but as-fan might be the most important.

I have a "non-tempo" (basically everything that is killing, not bouncing) removal as-fan of 2.43. What is everyone else sitting at?

Counting tempo removal as half a removal spell, and including mass removal as well as creatures and planewalkers that perform double duty as removal (Skinrender, Dragonlord Silumgar, Garruk Relentless), mine is 2.85. But it seems like the exact definition of 'removal' might differ from person to person.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Yeah definitions are going to vary. Skinrender is 10x the removal spell Gideon Jura is in my book, but do you count counterspells? I'm going to count mana leak, but not emerge unscathed. Valorous Stance? Probably.

Killing, not bouncing? Hmmm....
13 in white (Angel of Serenity counts, ya?)
13 in Blue (Counting Tamiyo here)
15 in Black (Massacre Wurm yes, Thoughtseize no)
18 (!!!) in Red (Plenty of Shocks though, from the x2 Firebolt and Pillar of Flame)
4 in green if I'm generous: Polukranos, a custom 6 drop ETB fight guy, Song of the Dryads and Garruk Relentless
Karn Liberated I guess?
Dragonlord Silumgar, Murderous Redcap, Dragonlord Atarka in multicolor

So that's 67/450
(I'm doing this because I have no idea where that as-fan calculator is)

 

[ahadabans]

I've calculated mine before and it was just under 3. Probably right in line with Eric's number actually. I run a fairly high amount of removal because I think it's critical with all the degeneracy in cube.

I also count tempo removal as half a removal when I do the calculation because I think it's wrong to ignore those effects. I do the same with discard, counter spells and any 1 point burn, since discard/counters must be used proactively to actually function as removal (not always reliable) and 1 point burn has a pretty limited group of targets.

 

[Peter LaCara]

So that's 67/450
(I'm doing this because I have no idea where that as-fan calculator is)

It's 2.23, assuming 15 card packs. (You do # of removal cards / cards in cube x pack size, right?)

Mine is 2.57, as long as we're counting bounce as half a removal spell, which seems like a nice middle ground number.

I'm an idiot and forgot to include my multicolored cards. It's actually 3.1, which might be a little high. Probably leads to the attritiony feel to a lot of games in my cube.

 

[ahadabans]

It's actually 3.1, which might be a little high. Probably leads to the attritiony feel to a lot of games in my cube.

Grillo posted a really good article on this subject. Worth a read for those who haven't already.

My 2 cents is I'd rather aim too high than too low (but mainly because I hate feeling like I couldn't win and that is a common feeling when you never draw any answers). In my experience, having too little removal exposes imbalances a lot more than the other way around (in a feel bad way). But neither is ideal (too little or too much removal).

If it is hard to disrupt due to bad removal or lack of removal, games boil down to who build the most degenerate deck. Generally, that means the grindy CA engine decks are the best unless you have a heavy aggro presence to take away tempo and win before said engines get online. Too much removal and it's really hard to get any kind of synergy online. That leads to a lot of goodstuff.dec wins by putting a premium on value cards (which in turn makes drafting feel like you don't have a ton of real options).

Removal is always the hardest thing to dial in, at least for me. I'm currently of the mindset that super efficient removal is just plain undesirable though regardless of how much total removal you run. I don't even run Path to Exile anymore because you shouldn't be able to unconditionally remove something at instant speed for 1 mana (IMO anyway).

 

[RavebornMuse]

Is this effect too strong in cube, or completely irrelevant? I can't decide. I'm intrigued by the possibility, though.

 

[Peter LaCara]

Completely irrelevant.

 

[ahadabans]

That mulligan ability is going to just suck 9 times out of 10. If you drew too many lands, exiling them all is just going to mana screw you. And if you drew a bunch of business with no lands, you'll get flooded with what's left. This only works out for you if you have 2-3 lands and just the wrong stuff in your hand. And you have to hope it isn't stuff you'd want to draw later in the game (which it probably is otherwise WTF is it doing in your final 40?)

I think that card is super bad. Like "how is that a rare?" bad. But I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Diakonov]

Well, that sort of effect has to be at rare. Too specific and weird to be any other rarity. As for usefulness, there have been builds of type 1 dredge that make good use of it.

If you want to see what a format would look like with way too much removal, just play Hearthstone for like 10 minutes. It's nearly impossible to get any sort of permanent-based game plan to last more than one turn. In that sense it's far more of a tactical game than strategic (at least how I perceive it).

Extremely efficient removal has never bothered me. Especially given how efficient and plentiful threats are these days.

 

[Peter LaCara]

Well, that sort of effect has to be at rare. Too specific and weird to be any other rarity. As for usefulness, there have been builds of type 1 dredge that make good use of it.

If you want to see what a format would look like with way too much removal, just play Hearthstone for like 10 minutes. It's nearly impossible to get any sort of permanent-based game plan to last more than one turn. In that sense it's far more of a tactical game than strategic (at least how I perceive it).

Extremely efficient removal has never bothered me. Especially given how efficient and plentiful threats are these days.

I've been playing a LOT of Hearthstone recently, to the point that it's making me a worse Magic player. It's probably subconsciously informed a lot of my design decisions, but I think my cube reflected a Hearthstone mentality before I ever touched the game, too.

 

[Eric Chan]

If you want to see what a format would look like with way too much removal, just play Hearthstone for like 10 minutes. It's nearly impossible to get any sort of permanent-based game plan to last more than one turn. In that sense it's far more of a tactical game than strategic (at least how I perceive it).

Having been out of Hearthstone for a while now, is this because there are that many more removal spells there than in Magic, or is it because every combat is a "fight" (e.g. you choose the attacker and the blocker)?

As a Magic player, I always hated how being the attacker felt like you were at a disadvantage, because the opponent chose all the blocks. Hearthstone has made me realize that the opposite - where the attacker is at a huge advantage - makes for a totally different game, a game in which any creature is lucky to stay on the board for two turns.