Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight

Oh I forgot to say that I think the goal should be that your first picks aren't the most powerful cards in the cube. Treasure Cruise is pushing that limit, in my opinion. Hangarback Walker isn't(though some people don't like playing with it), but its still very first pickable on the basis of fitting in lots of decks.

I don't like free broken cards going to whoever opens them(Black Lotus).

This is a good topic to do a deep dive into. We might be hijacking the thread doing it though.

Ah fuck it...

So I think we have a question that is heavily meta dependent. Is FTK first pickable because it wins games? Or is it just a safe choice because it goes in everything? I think it's the second scenario. And if we want a synergy card to be more first pickable than general good stuff cards, how weak do we have to make good stuff cards (or how strong do we make synergy cards) in order to facilitate that?

Take something like Abzan Falconer. That's a really weak card on it's own. In a deck with +1/+1 counter support, making all your dudes fly is pretty darn nice. Would anyone every first pick that over FTK?

But that doesn't mean that the +1/+1 counter deck isn't going to be strong - even the best deck at the table. It could very well be better than the FTK "good stuff" deck. And I agree that is an ideal scenario (when goodstuff.dec is not as good as synergy.dec)

Does that translate though to first pick? Another honest question for discussion because I freely admit I'm a shit drafter.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
- FTK has been winning games since 2001!

One approach is to make your good stuff cards into synergy cards. FTK is a safe pick that goes in any red deck, but it's at its best when that deck can also target its own Hornet Nest, use it to bring back Flamewake Phoenix, or Blink it over and over. Hangarback is perfect: it's a good stuff card that's also a great synergy card for a bunch of archetypes - enough that it qualifies as a safe pack on that axis, even disregarding its overall power.

You need to make sure that the payoff for taking a risk on a synergy deck: an above-average synergy deck should be 'better' than an average good-stuff deck, and the A+ synergy deck should be the best deck (or share that title with its peers).

- ahadabans: I really like Careful Consideration, it should be perfect for your projected power level

- Delve is stupidly broken ('Affinity for Dredge') but a card being broken doesn't tell you much about it. Yawgmoth's Will is completely busted but would be nearly unplayable in current Standard, doesn't make the cut in most power-max Cubes, and is rarely talked about here.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Well, this thread exploded

My 2 cents is there's a large power gap between any kind of rare based cube (even lower powered ones) and pauper/peasant. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like tempo means a lot more in pauper/peasant than it does in a rare cube. And that has to do with rares themselves. As a general rule, they are not role-player type cards. You don't drop a rare building onto a strategy so much as you drop a rare to BE the strategy. They break the game. That's why they are rare.

So in pauper/peasant environments (or similar - penny pincher is probably in this realm), the only way to win a game is to get an advantage and keep it over a period of time while you churn some sort of slow win condition. The more powered your cube, the more this idea goes out the window. Single cards can win games out of nowhere, often times from losing positions. And it's often matchup dependent and game state dependent (i.e. at the mercy of RNG). Here, tutors are often much better than raw draw cards (where DTT >> TC). Raw CA I think is better in lower powered environments, where a single card simply can't cancel 3 turns of momentum.

Theres a couple things to untangle here.


I feel like tempo means a lot more in pauper/peasant


Raw CA I think is better in lower powered environments

This looks like a negative and a positive canceling one another out. ;)

That being said, the argument that TC is better in low powered formats vs. DTT can very easily be disproven. The reason that I mentioned pauper, was to give an example of how TC was misevaluated in a format, and how those same sorts of misevaluations could be applied to cube. To go down that line though, briefly, TC was legal in vintage, legacy, and modern, alongside DTT, and broke all of those formats. It wasn't a fluke that it was broken in pauper, and the presence or absence of rares had no impact on how good it was: its just always good, outside of a specific standard format.

In fact, the more powered your cube is, the better TC becomes (as does all cheap card draw and cantrips), due to the high individual quality of the cards that you can hit off of it. Raw card draw is more likely to give you a combination of cards that wins on the spot, due to how much more explosive potential hits can be. This is why its restricted in vintage.

In pauper, like most formats, strategies that focus on tempo tend to be less good at generating CA than strategies that specialize in CA, and vice versa. The only time when that rule was ever really broken (to my knowledge) was when TC was legal, and the delver decks could generate both massive tempo and massive CA. In fact, tempo generation would fuel its CA engine, since delve directly feeds off of casting velocity. The mono black control decks vanished from the format, because they were inferior at both competing with delver on a tempo front (of course), and inferior at generating card advantage. Imagine that, the tempo deck obsoletes your card advantage deck, because the tempo deck is better at generating card advantage. It had a similar effect in modern on the jund decks.

When a card single handedly has the powerful to obsolete entire archetypes, it needs to be respected. Its ceiling is way beyond most cards we run, to the point where it could be considered a game ending threat itself, without really too much format support. This is especially true I feel for ripetide inspired cubes, since we emphasize low curves, alongside early and frequent interaction.

Since we run singleton formats, and do limited drafts, it can be really slow to identity problem cards. Try breaking singleton on it, and track how often it gets passed in packs, and how often it shows up in winning decks. That will give you a definitive answer in a hurry.
 
I had to cut Cruise for being the Zodiac Killer too powerful and wanting to cut down on straight draw. DTT is still fun though and while its in the top 1/5 of blue cards, its still worth it for how fun it is to build and play around. Its a fine way for blue control to solidify its end game, which it really needs in my environment given how hard I've pushed aggro. Yawg Will is one of the sweetest cards in my cube, one of the cards that makes me sad we don't get cards like that anymore.



Anyone have experience trying to build around this? I feel like this could be a sweet build around. Land some combination of 2-3 relatively large threats, anything more than what your opponent is doing, probably win for 6 mana. Its kind of like a Wildfire that doesn't ask for 5 toughness. Not sure if setting yourself to like 3 creatures vs their 3 lands is that good though. Reasons to bump sweepers up to 5+ mana though.
 
This looks like a negative and a positive canceling one another out. ;)

I think I'm misusing the term "tempo" here, which happened in another thread similar to this one. Here's what I'm trying to suggest and doing a bad job explaining. If the average power level of the cards in your pool are such that drawing 3 cards is an extremely powerful effect, this is where TC is likely better than DTT. Here the extra card is better than getting 2 of the best cards in the top 7. This is not always going to be true, but it assumes that your power band between the best card in your deck and the worst card in your deck is relatively close.

Moreover, because the cards are lower power level overall, if you are behind on the board getting one specific card is unlikely to have enough of an effect to turn the tide. Sweepers are an example. In Peasant/Pauper, if you are hopelessly behind in board position, how many sweeper options are there? What are you digging for that is going to save you? Here, 3 cards versus 2 is likely more useful (assuming you can survive long enough to play them - and if not, it doesn't really matter anyway). If you are ahead, drawing 3 cards is still most likely better since you can't dig for the dagger that seals the game. What card could that possibly be when the best blue creature in the entire cube is Riftwing Cloudskate?

That being said, the argument that TC is better in low powered formats vs. DTT can very easily be disproven.

Let's not get carried away here. Nothing can be easily proven or disproven in a game this complicated, or there wouldn't be discussions like this. Just want to point that out. ;)

In fact, the more powered your cube is, the better TC becomes (as does all cheap card draw and cantrips), due to the high individual quality of the cards that you can hit off of it. Raw card draw is more likely to give you a combination of cards that wins on the spot, due to how much more explosive potential hits can be. This is why its restricted in vintage.

The more powerful your cube, the likely larger gap between the best card in your deck and the worst. So I think this is where DTT is simply the better card. Not sure the power max crowd on MTGS still agree with this, but they certainly did at one point.

In pauper, like most formats

I'm going to stop you right there. Pauper is not like most formats. It has shit mana fixing, retardedly bad finishers, non-existent mass removal. It's basically limited without the rare bombs (I personally don't see the appeal but to each their own). Applying that to a rare cube though is completely apples and oranges (whether you are down with pauper or not). Are you arguing that TC is capable of obsoleting entire archetypes in a rare cube? Because I have a hard time believing that. But I'm open to being convinced I have my head up my ass about what TC is capable of doing.
 


Anyone have experience trying to build around this? I feel like this could be a sweet build around. Land some combination of 2-3 relatively large threats, anything more than what your opponent is doing, probably win for 6 mana. Its kind of like a Wildfire that doesn't ask for 5 toughness. Not sure if setting yourself to like 3 creatures vs their 3 lands is that good though. Reasons to bump sweepers up to 5+ mana though.


I haven't tried, but I imagine if you have 2-3 big threats and your opponent doesn't, whatever 6-mana finisher sorcery you cast, you'd win anyway.
 
If you stretch the definition of synergy-based cards to include Flametongue Kavu, then the term is basically meaningless. FTK's strongest draft and deckbuilding synergies are your opponent using creatures or removal spells, heh.

Next thing you know, someone will be saying that Thragtusk has synergies with being attacked by your opponent because it gives you extra life and makes an extra blocker. Or that Sol Ring is synergistic with cards that cost 3 or more. :p
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think I'm misusing the term "tempo" here, which happened in another thread similar to this one. Here's what I'm trying to suggest and doing a bad job explaining. If the average power level of the cards in your pool are such that drawing 3 cards is an extremely powerful effect, this is where TC is likely better than DTT. Here the extra card is better than getting 2 of the best cards in the top 7. This is not always going to be true, but it assumes that your power band between the best card in your deck and the worst card in your deck is relatively close.

Moreover, because the cards are lower power level overall, if you are behind on the board getting one specific card is unlikely to have enough of an effect to turn the tide. Sweepers are an example. In Peasant/Pauper, if you are hopelessly behind in board position, how many sweeper options are there? What are you digging for that is going to save you? Here, 3 cards versus 2 is likely more useful (assuming you can survive long enough to play them - and if not, it doesn't really matter anyway). If you are ahead, drawing 3 cards is still most likely better since you can't dig for the dagger that seals the game. What card could that possibly be when the best blue creature in the entire cube is Riftwing Cloudskate?



Let's not get carried away here. Nothing can be easily proven or disproven in a game this complicated, or there wouldn't be discussions like this. Just want to point that out. ;)



The more powerful your cube, the likely larger gap between the best card in your deck and the worst. So I think this is where DTT is simply the better card. Not sure the power max crowd on MTGS still agree with this, but they certainly did at one point.



I'm going to stop you right there. Pauper is not like most formats. It has shit mana fixing, retardedly bad finishers, non-existent mass removal. It's basically limited without the rare bombs (I personally don't see the appeal but to each their own). Applying that to a rare cube though is completely apples and oranges (whether you are down with pauper or not). Are you arguing that TC is capable of obsoleting entire archetypes in a rare cube? Because I have a hard time believing that. But I'm open to being convinced I have my head up my ass about what TC is capable of doing.


As much as I appreciate the back and forth, I feel like we are getting wildly off topic. The intricacies of pauper vs. rare formats seems like a deflection, as is assessing whether TC or DTT is stronger. You seem to be trying to draw some distinguishment between TC in pauper and TC in other formats, and I'm not really sure what that is?

If you want to see TC and DTT in action in vintage, you can watch VSL seasons and see the affect it has on games. TC was restricted before DTT in that format, which is factual, as it was identified as being the stronger card, though this is again off topic, as both cards being ban worthy restricted in vintage again supports that they are busted in higher powered formats due to the power level of the hits you can make off of it. Either case suggests that both cards become more powerful in high power formats, not less. There was some argument right before DTT was restricted in vintage, that it was overshadowed by cruise, but due to the restricting, we still don't have the data to make a reasonable conclusion. As it was though, the consensus opinion seems to be that TC was the stronger card, an opinion largely driven by the potential impact of hitting three ultra powerful cards off the top, any one of which might be capable of winning the game. TC gives you a critical mass of high power cards, and a good hit off of it has the potentially to easily win the game, something it does for less mana. On the other hand, DTT is probably more consistent.

And I feel like I'm explaining why ancestral recall is restricted :confused:

A lot of the stuff you are writing about pauper seems misinformed, or exaggerated, and I'm confused where some of these claims are coming from. The point is that even in low powered formats, the card was busted, for the same ultimate reason it was busted in modern, legacy, and vintage: it grants both tempo and card advantage at the same time. The power level of the cards involved has zero impact on the ability to be able to pull ahead on CA while simultaneously sequencing out spells, and TC was able to do this without any specialized support.

If you're wondering why TC was so strong in pauper, the answer is very simple: it gets you three cards at one mana. In lower power formats, where individual card power is less likely to meaningfully impact a game state (outside of certain decks like MBC or Tron), you have to rely more on achieving a critical mass of effects. TC grants you three cards which is insane in a format operating in that manner. In addition, pauper is a format that stresses efficiency, so being able to simultaneously gain a large number of cards, without giving up the ability to sequence spells is game breaking good.

You asked for an example of a common operating at a power level sufficient to single handedly turn around a game. Here is a picture of one:



Believe me, casting ancestral recall in a format dominated by commons, is good.

In peasant you don't actually need to relay on critical mass of cards to turn a game around, since you can hit cards like skullclamp or mother of runes. In the Penny cube, there are a multitude of individual rares capable of turning a game around.

The concept of time, or tempo, is core to the game's mechanics. Tempo functions the same way across formats regardless of the power level of the format, just as card advantage does.

Its abnormally good to both be able to draw a large number of cards, and cast them in the same turn. Thats why the card is banned across every eternal format and restricted in vintage, regardless of power level.

Edit: updated banned/restricted list stuff for vintage, might have missed a few spots.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb


Anyone have experience trying to build around this? I feel like this could be a sweet build around. Land some combination of 2-3 relatively large threats, anything more than what your opponent is doing, probably win for 6 mana. Its kind of like a Wildfire that doesn't ask for 5 toughness. Not sure if setting yourself to like 3 creatures vs their 3 lands is that good though. Reasons to bump sweepers up to 5+ mana though.
You know what would really suck? If they kept 3 lands to your 3 creatures, then follow up with a land and a Damnation. I think that if you want to run that kind of effect in cube, you're better off with one of the mono white options.

 
As much as I appreciate the back and forth, I feel like we are getting wildly off topic

I agree and I'm sorry I tend to do this in threads. It's hard to resist because discussing this is really interesting to me. I'll keep my reply super short.

If you want to see TC and DTT in action in vintage

I don't because it has zero bearing on the version of Magic I'm playing on multiple levels. One, the skill of the drafters and players in my group (including my own skill) and the fact that a constructed deck is not even close to what a limited deck looks like even if drafted by really good players. It's so completely different drawing parallels between the two things is like comparing chess to checkers because the board is the same. It's like taking body building advice from Arnold when you are a buck fifty soaking wet eating 2000 calories a day and not taking steroids.

A lot of the stuff you are writing about pauper seems misinformed, or exaggerated, and I'm confused where some of these claims are coming from.


So do you have an example from a previous draft of something you or one of your players drafted where TC was in the list and was literally the reason why the deck went 3-0 (or did better than it should have)? I'd like to see this deck, build it and test with it. Both as a learning experience and because I genuinely want to see how you construct a limited deck with a single copy of TC that is broken in a rare cube. Because I simply don't buy this as being possible with all the other stuff you can do with a pile of rare cards.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Its been eons since tc was in my list, and even longer since I wrote down deck lists. It went out during the first depowering of blue, after posting in the p1p1 thread and realizing that way too many of my blue cards were first or second picks. I don't think its good testing methodology to run a penny cube list against a different format list though.

However, to go down that route, Eric has posted extensively about the power of tc in his rare environment, and has posted lists on this forum. That would probably be a good place to start.
 
And I feel like I'm explaining why ancestral recall is restricted :confused:


Ancestral Recall is an Instant. It's broken because you can hold up 1 mana for your Flusterstorm, then EOT Ancestral. Treasure Cruise is fair, because it's a mere Sorcery.

Also I have a real point. Ahadabans kept mentioning that Cruise is better than Dig based on the power level of the format, but the term we're going for is power variance. If all the cards suck, Cruise is better than Dig. If all the cards are good, Cruise is better than Dig. If most of your cards suck, but you have a few bombs, then you want to Dig.
 
Narset, Enlightened Master

Is this a fun and/or good card? I have no experience with her. Is this a card people would pick?

Narset is extremely fun, and, depending on your noncreature options, potentially super good. She was a top pick in the MTGO Legendary Cube, for example, doing disgusting things with Beacon of Tomorrows and the like. If you have TOL manipulation and/or the potential for heavy noncreature-focused decks to win, she can be quite the house! I've considered throwing her in my Cube, and I've warped retail drafts around her several times, which was typically a great time.

That said, she does suffer from "3c card syndrome", meaning she may just wheel forever... but frankly, I'm much more excited by the idea of building around Narset than, say, Jeskai Ascendancy (which bores me to tears but is a popular include I guess), so if you don't mind something that's going to just wheel forever sometimes, and your format is spells-friendly, I think she's a great include.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
So, I've got two slots in Jeskai, and Ascendancy is already in (I think the card is fun btw, but I haven't played against the combo deck in constructed I guess), and I'm currently running a custom in the other slot. While digging up cards I came across a few other options, including Narset. So, the card has at least some appeal, judging by RavebornMuse's reaction :) There's probably enough options that I don't need to run a custom, and I'm not really concerned they won't be played, because you get free fixing when you pick a three color card in my cube ;) I guess I'll put up a post in the fight thread.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I know that Jeskai Ascendancy has worked for a number of people on this forum, but in truth, it did nothing for us during the time it was in my list. My playgroup includes an avid PTQ grinder, who played Ascendancy over the whole Standard season it was legal, and he was the one who challenged me the most on its inclusion, arguing that the card was all but useless in its limited draft format, and that would also apply to cube; in retrospect, I can't say he was wrong. I can see including it if it was any two of the three Jeskai colours, but forcing people into a specific wedge for a narrow build-around isn't what my cube has ever been about, and Ascendancy proved no exception to that rule.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
As much as we all probably hate it, Siege Rhino was much more successful as a wedge card than Ascendancy during its own limited run here. Everybody was excited by its power level, and went to great lengths to splash it; it demands nothing of you other than needing {W}, {G}, and {B}; it's the epitome of Good Stuff, but requires careful manabase construction to reap its rewards without destabilizing your deck. Perhaps it's the preference or philosophy of my cube playgroup, but when they see three colour cards, it appears they want payoff cards, not build-arounds; for the latter, they're more than happy to take them in mono-colour.
 
I've been told I have a ton of fixing in my cube which does enable a lot of 3 color decks and 4 colors with splashes. That's probably a prerequisite for this kind of shenanigan.

The going off turn with Ascendancy is always sweet as hell when the deck comes together though. Jeskai Ascendancy with a mana or land creature or two or Bloom Tender, start playing cantrips that net mana while digging way deep for pieces. Play a free Fact or Fiction or Dig Through Time or something possibly, you really just need to maintain a hand size of 2 while you go off. Unlike storm, you're only keeping track of mana of each type, not spells, which IMO is a lot better since it removes an awkward layer of complexity. You have to keep track of pumps but that's way more fun than a storm count since its right on board and counts to lethal on its own. Turnabout can make a pile of mana, Life / Death really turns your spells into super rituals and quickly gives you lethal power. Mystic Speculation actually goes infinite, Soulfire Grand Master can get there after a Life. Impulse effects help a lot.

Basically you focus on drafting color fixing, creatures that can tap for mana, cantrips, burn, countermagic and whatever disruption. Token makers can be great because sometimes you just drop some bodies and use Ascendancy as an anthem/loot or just MacGyver a way through whatever pile you draw.

The only real problem I have with the archetype is that there isn't really any redundancy on the Ascendancy itself. I do run Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, Ojutai Exemplars, Guttersnipe, Quirion Dryad, etc, to enable variations of spells matters, but nothing is another copy of Ascendancy. There's also no good tutor for the card, outside of like Enlightened Tutor I guess but ew card disadvantage, esp with a combo that requires a hand.

The cube kind of has to warp itself around this deck to some degree but the end result is basically being able to run storm without the parasiticness of running storm.

Wow, I'm rambling a lot. :p
 
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