Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
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Dom Harvey
Contributor
I love it! A quick and non-exhaustive list of cool things it does:
- Triggers prowess every turn, goes animal with Monastery Mentor/Jeskai Ascendancy
- 'Draws' every turn for Chasm Skulker
- Very silly with Alhammarret's Archive, which isn't a concern for you probably BUT IT SHOULD BE
- Lets you 'super-cycle' Repeal; 'cycles' with Trinket Mage, Greater Gargadon/Pia and Kiran Nalaar/Trading Post/Arcbound Ravager
- Guarantees a hit for Narset Transcendent/Tezzeret AoB, Thirst for Knowledge
- A cheap artifact for Daretti and especially Welder (or Tinker?) that also helps set up the shenanigans you're aiming for
- Reliable stacking for Courser of Kruphix/Oracle of Mul Daya, also insurance for cascade and any other top-of-library card (notably Abbot of Keral Keep, which conveniently has Prowess, or Dark Confidant/Prophetic Flamespeaker/Countryside Crusher)
- B-B-B-B-B-B-B-BONFIRE
- Amazing mid/long-term card selection in conjunction with fetchlands/other shuffle effects/Dredge, good at drawing you out of mana-light starts
- Stops you from drawing cards that need to be in your library (say, for Tinker)
I wasn't too impressed with Unexpectedly Absent for a long time, but lately I've come to appreciate it for filling a niche: a tool for control decks to push the game stage forward and safely reach the late game, not unlike Oust. In aggro or tempo decks, its cost is too expensive to be effective; I personally don't even like Oblivion Ring in white weenie decks, because three mana can be a huge investment when you're tight on mana, and Unexpectedly Absent doesn't even get rid of the problem permanently (ahem). In control decks, though, you can tuck a troublesome attacker for a few turns while you continue to draw cards and stretch out the game, and your inevitability in the form of sweepers or finishers will render that attacker moot eventually. It's in these decks that being an instant is the most beneficial, as you can hold it up alongside counterspells or card draw and deploy it at the last possible moment.
Unexpectedly Absent probably hasn't fulfilled the hype that surrounded it when it was first previewed in Commander, but if your white control decks need a little kick, you could do worse.
Unexpectedly Absent probably hasn't fulfilled the hype that surrounded it when it was first previewed in Commander, but if your white control decks need a little kick, you could do worse.
I'm going to agree with all of this. The only thing I hate about top is how long it takes to resolve on cockatrice. Also, I once went super deep and put in 2 tops (I was trying out a top of the library theme.) Someone managed to assemble the combo of 2 tops and monastery mentor in play. It was gross.
Yall know how much I love to run hot durdly garbage, am I seriously gonna get bullied into liking Alhammarret's Archive?
I guess it offers a niche reward for my struggling-for-identity pair...edit: oh no it's happening.. the poison is taking hold.. I'm picturing a
artifact/life-gain/draw package..
How is this?
How is this?
It was pretty good when I tried it. Its worse case scenario is when it just feels bad in a "flames of the firebrand 3-1" situation, but most of the time it gives R/G some reach. Unfortunately, my actual R/G decks rarely wanted it, and it more often ended up being a splash for G/U or G/B durdle.
how I like my RG section:
you say your card draw is too good, how did you reach that conclusion? I'm mostly curious because I've never reached that point (in my past cubes, blue has alway been buffed continuously, not nerfed).
When looking for card draw replacements, I guess the first thing I would try to figure out is what kind of decks are pushed over the top by your card draw. That way you can nerf and replace in ways that don't neuter your other blue decks.
When looking for card draw replacements, I guess the first thing I would try to figure out is what kind of decks are pushed over the top by your card draw. That way you can nerf and replace in ways that don't neuter your other blue decks.
Player expectations are playing a large role, tbh. Your own talk over on my thread on being unilaterally lead into U by something like Frost Titan is basically what I'm talking about. This paired with the push to drive control into other colors. Why try non-U control/grind/whatever when you can just... draft U control with these bomby draw spells to back you up the whole way?? I'm less excited to take out Dig Through Time, but already removed Treasure Cruise.
Also pushing a little to have U be slightly comboier sometimes? maybe... not sure, but draw spells such as DtT certainly add a ton of consistency to that angle, maybe too much.
Laz
Developer
I know it isn't Blue, but the original Delve card draw spell is still awesome.
I could see Dig being strong in your environment with the heavy graveyard focus, but what about it are you looking for? Premier card selection? Draw that cares about the yard (also this one)?
What about a slightly different take on premier card selection?
I could see Dig being strong in your environment with the heavy graveyard focus, but what about it are you looking for? Premier card selection? Draw that cares about the yard (also this one)?
What about a slightly different take on premier card selection?
how could I forget about deep analysis!? That might be a good choice... potentially instead of Treasure Cruise, filling the same role.
So I've tried Demonic Tutor before and got turned off by a tutor that's a high pick for basically any deck rather than being something to push combo decks. Other tutors really haven't felt worth running and I'm really not sure how much I want this kind of effect. Not sure what people here think about black tutors. I'm thinking maybe this would be a nice card for enabling various fringe decks without being too much of a bomb. I also like the idea of enabling that sweet Seasons Past loop.
I guess I felt like it was the creatures that were the problem, not the card draw. Drawing more cards is only as good as the things you can actually draw into. On a personal level, I love having tons of card draw in blue, but forcing it into other colors to for creatures that can close a game (or board wipes or planeswalkers or basically anything that isn't unsummon or prowess creatures).
I'm kinda torn between Dark Petition and Sidisi, Undead Vizier... I guess the former is better for control, and the latter for midrange?
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills: is this really a world where Alhammarret's archive is more pickable than Obelisk of Alara?
I run Sidisi all day in control; while it's true that a 5-mana straight tutor isn't remotely ideal, the fact that she can either be a big-ass wall or a tutor or both plays heavily in her favour. I consider her kind of an ideal control top-end tbh but maybe my line between "control" and "midrange" is more mutable than yours
This looks miserable and I would never play it.
While it's true that too much raw
card draw is a bad thing if you want to move away from blue-splashed control, I think that you need to be mindful of how much you batter the top-end of the card draw, and focus more on if you're running a dozen low-cost cantrips as the likely offending elements (because many a shitty deck has survived thanks to 1-mana and 2-mana blue cantrips keeping it moving imho). That said, Dig Through Time has always seemed super boring to me, and I much prefer my bomb card draw to be Fact or Fiction (pretty much the sweetest card ever imho). If you're looking for replacements for Dig, I kinda like Stroke of Genius as a reward for long-game decks, and specifically ramp-control decks.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So my card draw is too good, but I wanna emulate Dig through Time, if I am taking it out. How about:
It forces quite a bit more investment, but can still get two cards like dig, and is significantly more toned down. Right?
Blue card draw is like layered stratum of excellence: all you have to do is dig lightly to find some now long forgotten gem that defined some format in the past. We don't have to run bad cards, just less ridiculous cards. Think twice and impulse are perfect examples of this, as are braingeyser and stroke of genius. Epiphany at the drownyard looks rather tasty for your format I would add.
DTT, TC, ponder and preordain were doubtless design mistakes, which is why I think its an error to run them when you are trying to open up a list; but there are lots of brilliantly designed blue draw cards that have been obsoleted by power creep, which are well worth the revisit before we start looking at draft fodder.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I love me a DTT though, just the feeling of anguish when your opponent casts it, praying that he/she'll brick. Totally worth it. I think there is room for powerful card draw in moderation, after all, it's one of blue's strengths.
Some other options for card advantage/selection that are/might be interesting (imo):
Some other options for card advantage/selection that are/might be interesting (imo):
I've been thinking about this and am probably adding it. anybody tried/played it?
I might. Definitely a little wary because of how the piles are made/chosen, but still might be cool.
I've been thinking about this and am probably adding it. anybody tried/played it?
RE: flash of insight. You guys do realize it's reverse think twice, as long as you play >1 U spell, with a way higher BCS, right? As in, 3 mana front end, 2 mana back end, but can also dump more in.
The good thing about Think Twice is that the front end is a curve filler for when you're holding up /bluffing counters, and the back end can either serve the same purpose the next turn, or be cashed in later. It's not some mindblowing tech play, it's just a bullshit cycle card so that holding up mana for counters isn't a complete waste of resources.
This says nothing of the absolutely terrible signalling it gives to players to include an X spell that looks like a really bad Impulse variant.
Balance itself in a cube with very little and only modern legal artifact ramp. When you can't build around it the artifact way, it becomes extremely difficult to break the symmetry, to the point where it actually feels like a fun card with a lot of play to it. Its not even good when its a handful of doom blades vs aggro. I also run minimal straight card draw which theoretically helps balance it. Just needs the right environment. That and Cataclysm are the two fun ones.
I want to defend Treasure Cruise.
I get that it's a card which has the potential to basically be Ancestral Recall (one of the most broken cards ever printed). But there are a lot of real world factors that make this spell fall way short of that. Early/mid game, this card is either completely unplayable or worse than most other options. You need 4 cards in the yard to make it a 3U version of Concentrate. Who wants to run that?
Sure, late game it draws three cards for U which is ridiculous, but you have to get to the late game and have 7 things in your graveyard you are OK with exiling. Point is, there's a cost associated with that. How did 7 cards get in your graveyard? Did you build a dredge/graveyard shenanigan deck (which has an opportunity cost associated with it)? Did you make a spell heavy deck (which has an opportunity cost in a creature heavy meta like most cubes run - one shot effects versus on-going board presence from creatures, etc)? Did you lose 4+ creatures over the course of the game (which means you are probably behind on the board)?
I've played a decent number of games with this card in cube. I haven't found it to be overly powerful. If I was very behind when I cast it, rarely did TC save me. Maybe I'm not maximizing the card. Maybe I'm a subpar player. Not ruling either of these things out (both probably have truth to them in fact). I just don't think this card is head and shoulders above other options in blue. I think it's important to recognize that what happens in other formats does not necessarily translate to cube. Some cards are broken beyond belief in one format and end up being very pedestrian in others. Unless you are building a super graveyard centric cube, the degenerate graveyard filling absurdity of some other formats simply can't be replicated. That's why cards like Gorf (while still potentially good in cube) is not broken.
CA is so easy to come by in cube (higher powered flavors at least) that drawing 3 cards while great, really isn't all that hard to compete against with numerous other engines. The first 4-5 turns of a game are also substantially more impactful than turns 6+ from the standpoint of how powerful card draw or mana ramp effects are. Sol Ring on T1 is nearly unbeatable. Sol Ring on T6 does not matter. Drawing 3 cards for U on T2 is going to be GRBS. Doing that on T7 is still good but much less game breaking.
The primary reason I've kept either TC or DTT in my cube is due to the delve part of the card. I like having the graveyard as a resource mechanic represented as much as possible because it offers another dimension to game play and deck design. Delve is a wonderful mechanic.
I get that it's a card which has the potential to basically be Ancestral Recall (one of the most broken cards ever printed). But there are a lot of real world factors that make this spell fall way short of that. Early/mid game, this card is either completely unplayable or worse than most other options. You need 4 cards in the yard to make it a 3U version of Concentrate. Who wants to run that?
Sure, late game it draws three cards for U which is ridiculous, but you have to get to the late game and have 7 things in your graveyard you are OK with exiling. Point is, there's a cost associated with that. How did 7 cards get in your graveyard? Did you build a dredge/graveyard shenanigan deck (which has an opportunity cost associated with it)? Did you make a spell heavy deck (which has an opportunity cost in a creature heavy meta like most cubes run - one shot effects versus on-going board presence from creatures, etc)? Did you lose 4+ creatures over the course of the game (which means you are probably behind on the board)?
I've played a decent number of games with this card in cube. I haven't found it to be overly powerful. If I was very behind when I cast it, rarely did TC save me. Maybe I'm not maximizing the card. Maybe I'm a subpar player. Not ruling either of these things out (both probably have truth to them in fact). I just don't think this card is head and shoulders above other options in blue. I think it's important to recognize that what happens in other formats does not necessarily translate to cube. Some cards are broken beyond belief in one format and end up being very pedestrian in others. Unless you are building a super graveyard centric cube, the degenerate graveyard filling absurdity of some other formats simply can't be replicated. That's why cards like Gorf (while still potentially good in cube) is not broken.
CA is so easy to come by in cube (higher powered flavors at least) that drawing 3 cards while great, really isn't all that hard to compete against with numerous other engines. The first 4-5 turns of a game are also substantially more impactful than turns 6+ from the standpoint of how powerful card draw or mana ramp effects are. Sol Ring on T1 is nearly unbeatable. Sol Ring on T6 does not matter. Drawing 3 cards for U on T2 is going to be GRBS. Doing that on T7 is still good but much less game breaking.
The primary reason I've kept either TC or DTT in my cube is due to the delve part of the card. I like having the graveyard as a resource mechanic represented as much as possible because it offers another dimension to game play and deck design. Delve is a wonderful mechanic.
I'm curious as to your manabase in your Cube, and how low your curve is. In my Cube, I found that double fetches plus cheap interaction between decks lead to a relatively trivial Treasure Cruise at or Dig Through Time at on turn 4-5.
I think the point that you're missing about these cards is (and why I dislike the comparison to Concentrate) not that they are strong card draw spells, but that they are free card draw and mana spells. You will never cast Concentrate for less than . Never. But on Turn 7 you could easily drop for Cruise and then a finisher (say Frost Titan) for the other . Delve granted you six mana and three cards on that turn, which is way stronger than simply three cards, especially in formats where tempo matters, like lower curve, fast formats.
or Dig Through Time at on turn 4-5. I think the point that you're missing about these cards is (and why I dislike the comparison to Concentrate) not that they are strong card draw spells, but that they are free card draw and mana spells. You will never cast Concentrate for less than
. Never. But on Turn 7 you could easily drop for Cruise and then a finisher (say Frost Titan) for the other . Delve granted you six mana and three cards on that turn, which is way stronger than simply three cards, especially in formats where tempo matters, like lower curve, fast formats.