Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah it does, unfortunately. I'm looking for a card to synergize with Demonic Pact and the custom Deck of Many Things I created. I added a new custom card to "solve" my "problem" though
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Yeah it does, unfortunately. I'm looking for a card to synergize with Demonic Pact and the custom Deck of Many Things I created. I added a new custom card to "solve" my "problem" though
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, maybe? I can see how Rider can get oppressive, though, and in testing it really felt quite unbeatable unless it got removed immediately. I think it's too much of a removal check, and one of the reasons is that it lacks the "another" clause I put on Unchained Observer. You just sit there with your creatures, activating it at end of turn if the opponent doesn't do anything, and saving itself if the opponent tries to destroy it with any of the many sorcery-speed removal spells. I think I'm going to stick with the Observer. It feels nice, has nice synergies, and even if you don't get to run those synergies, it's cool how it can bounce a land to cycle away in the late game.
Although it was sufficiently neutered when damage could no longer be stacked, Tradewind still requires a certain density of removal and at instant speed to keep in check. It's hands down my favorite card. I had to cut it from my cube years ago for being underpowered, but I've always had plenty of instant speed answers. It's pretty slow, and needing to stick it for a full turn with two additional creatures on the board is not the smallest task for a lot of cubes. That said, I have a renewed interest in testing it in my cube...mostly due to seeing some riptide cubes running it.
My issue with Tradewind Rider many years ago was not its overall power level, its removal-check status or its oppressiveness but rather it repetitive nature. Most turns will look the same and it is kind of a soft lock. That makes it very unattractive in my eyes.
I should spend some time thinking about why Tradewind's brand of repetitiveness is more palatable to me than say Oketra's Monument and Kor Skyfisher...which I loathe.
Isn't it possibly because you're attacking your opponents tempo? So you're opening up for a closure of the game, whereas both the other two cards only work to build up the board or rebuy an effect or sort of stall out.
I think it's mainly just the fact that Tradewind has a lot of modes, and it's not always obvious which way to use it:
- Attack opponent's manabase
- Tie up opponent's mana/tempo by bouncing opponent's permanents
- Save your permanent from combat/removal
- Bounce and replay your own permanent for profit
- Saves itself
You don't need recursive bounce for demonic pact, just a few different ones that target permanents, but just creature's.
Tradewind rider is unfortunately not fun. Too repetitive, not good enough at higher power, too powerful at lower. Still love the card but it's not healthy.
Tradewind rider is unfortunately not fun. Too repetitive, not good enough at higher power, too powerful at lower. Still love the card but it's not healthy.
I agree. Can you name some good examples that we should want for Demonic Pact
Kor Skyfisher
What else?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Some more options:
So with the change to planeswalkers being legendary, and a bunch of cool legends in Dominaria, is this card worth a look?
Aaaah, I finally had time to sit down and write a little. It has been a while.
I love this card.
In general I love high risk-high reward cards and plays. As long as the high risk is not miserable to pilot and the high reward is not unbeatable and thus miserable to play against. This goes for any game but Magic: the Gathering in particular.
Demonic Pact is a clean and flavorful homerun. It originated in Magic Origins showing us Liliana's first truly dark deed that has lead her onto the long journey she is still partaking in. The moment the pact was signed, she suddenly had four mortal enemies. And for an almost immortal being, that is quite the drastic change. And something she had to live with..basically forever. Four enemies = Converted mana cost 4. Four enemies = 4 abilities. One for each chapter of her life after the pact.
Also note that the pact deals 4 damages, gains 4 life and has a card swing of 4 (2 discard + 2 draw).
(The four enemies are in chronological order Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, Griselbrand, Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Demonlord Belzenlok)
End of lore rant. Onto gameplay.
The card fascinates me because it either demands a fast way to close out the game after resolving it or for you to have some sort of synergy with it. Luckily all colors have access to such tools like Boomerang, Naturalize, Flickerwisp, Harmless Offering or Platinum Angel and so on. Many of these tools are cube-worthy and have tons of Riptide value because they can help other strategies as well and thus the circle of synergy begins. However it is important to note that your cube needs to run quite many of these but still not too many. Demonic Pact cannot simply be jammed into a cube without careful consideration. There needs to be a risky downside and a rewardful upside as well. Not all cubes are of equal size, so how many answers/synergies do you need to run in your cube to support? Ondezeeboot has recommended your cube to have a 3,8 % of your cards being able to synergize with your Demonic Pact.
Next topic are custom cards. Sorry non-custom carders. There are three cards to look at. Ravnic's Orzhov Pact and Ondezeeboot's Fool's Trove and Deck of Many Things.
Link for Orzhov Pact
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/single-card-spotlight.99/page-279#post-80878
Link for Fool's Trove:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/custom-cards-the-lab.403/page-84#post-80877
Link for Deck of Many Things:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/custom-cards-the-lab.403/page-85#post-80953
Orzhov Pact (2WB)
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep choose one that hasn't been chosen:
- You gain 10 life.
- Exile target permanent.
- Create four 1/1 flying Spirit creatures.
- You lose 30 life.
Here is my humble opinion of the card. It has the same converted mana cost and the same ultimate chapter as Demonic Pact. You lose the game. The exception here is if a player has life gain and is not facing aggro. The first 10 life doesn't solve any issues a player might have and feels like it is only there to soften the blow of the ultimate -30 life. The second ability is quite powerful and has only ever been seen on Scour from Existence in pure text (I bet you didn't know that.) It feels very Orzhovy though. Creating four flying tokens is also quite strong. Overall the card feels right up the Orzhov alley. I actually find the card quite elegant.
Fool's Trove (3)
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen:
- Create two Treasure artifact tokens with “T, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.”
- Draw two cards.
- Exile another target nonland permament until CARDNAME leaves the battlefield.
- Sacrifice each nonland permanent you control.
Again high risk, high reward. The final chapter is not a game loss but the reward is also not quite as high. A thing to note, as Ondezeeboot also has pointed out: It doesn't feel so good to give it "Draw two cards" because Demonic Pact already has that ability. So what to do?
Deck of Many Things (3)
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen:
- Create two Treasure artifact tokens with “T, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.”
- Create a 2/2 white Knight creature token with vigilance.
- Shuffle up to one target card from your graveyard into your library. You draw a card.
- Exile all nonland permanents you control.
No more "Draw two cards." The flavor here is a Dungeons and Dragons item. Ondezeeboot shared a later variant of the card. See it by following the link I provided above.
My personal take on the card:
You judge the card.
I wanted the countdown to be 3, 2, 1, BOOM (Create three treasures, draw two cards, exile 1 permanent and lose all nonland but I couldn't find a good thing for '2') I personally like the mirrored wording on the last two abilities. "you don't control" and "you control"
A final thing I want to share. In my honest opinion: I do not think it is very fair to have all combo pieces of a combo be custom made. The players won't know what hit them. I usually prefer having "up to one" part of a combo be custom but the rest has to be provided by Wizards of the Coast. Therefore I have decided not to make synergy cards with Demonic Pact via customization because I very much want more Demonic Pact variants into the cube (and the only way to do this is by custom making them.)
Cheers <3
I am very much looking for feedback so if you have any thoughts to share, please spam me up. I wish to continue working with Demonic Pact and to have the card be awesome in cube. The most recent set, Ravnica Allegiance, gave us Captive Audience who plays a little like Pact and then again, not at all like Pact. If you have any ideas of wish to mention a card that could synergize with Pact, please share. If you have any custom ideas, please show them as well Thank you very much.
I love this card.
In general I love high risk-high reward cards and plays. As long as the high risk is not miserable to pilot and the high reward is not unbeatable and thus miserable to play against. This goes for any game but Magic: the Gathering in particular.
Demonic Pact is a clean and flavorful homerun. It originated in Magic Origins showing us Liliana's first truly dark deed that has lead her onto the long journey she is still partaking in. The moment the pact was signed, she suddenly had four mortal enemies. And for an almost immortal being, that is quite the drastic change. And something she had to live with..basically forever. Four enemies = Converted mana cost 4. Four enemies = 4 abilities. One for each chapter of her life after the pact.
Also note that the pact deals 4 damages, gains 4 life and has a card swing of 4 (2 discard + 2 draw).
(The four enemies are in chronological order Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, Griselbrand, Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Demonlord Belzenlok)
End of lore rant. Onto gameplay.
The card fascinates me because it either demands a fast way to close out the game after resolving it or for you to have some sort of synergy with it. Luckily all colors have access to such tools like Boomerang, Naturalize, Flickerwisp, Harmless Offering or Platinum Angel and so on. Many of these tools are cube-worthy and have tons of Riptide value because they can help other strategies as well and thus the circle of synergy begins. However it is important to note that your cube needs to run quite many of these but still not too many. Demonic Pact cannot simply be jammed into a cube without careful consideration. There needs to be a risky downside and a rewardful upside as well. Not all cubes are of equal size, so how many answers/synergies do you need to run in your cube to support? Ondezeeboot has recommended your cube to have a 3,8 % of your cards being able to synergize with your Demonic Pact.
Next topic are custom cards. Sorry non-custom carders. There are three cards to look at. Ravnic's Orzhov Pact and Ondezeeboot's Fool's Trove and Deck of Many Things.
Link for Orzhov Pact
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/single-card-spotlight.99/page-279#post-80878
Link for Fool's Trove:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/custom-cards-the-lab.403/page-84#post-80877
Link for Deck of Many Things:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/custom-cards-the-lab.403/page-85#post-80953
Orzhov Pact (2WB)
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep choose one that hasn't been chosen:
- You gain 10 life.
- Exile target permanent.
- Create four 1/1 flying Spirit creatures.
- You lose 30 life.
Here is my humble opinion of the card. It has the same converted mana cost and the same ultimate chapter as Demonic Pact. You lose the game. The exception here is if a player has life gain and is not facing aggro. The first 10 life doesn't solve any issues a player might have and feels like it is only there to soften the blow of the ultimate -30 life. The second ability is quite powerful and has only ever been seen on Scour from Existence in pure text (I bet you didn't know that.) It feels very Orzhovy though. Creating four flying tokens is also quite strong. Overall the card feels right up the Orzhov alley. I actually find the card quite elegant.
Fool's Trove (3)
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen:
- Create two Treasure artifact tokens with “T, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.”
- Draw two cards.
- Exile another target nonland permament until CARDNAME leaves the battlefield.
- Sacrifice each nonland permanent you control.
Again high risk, high reward. The final chapter is not a game loss but the reward is also not quite as high. A thing to note, as Ondezeeboot also has pointed out: It doesn't feel so good to give it "Draw two cards" because Demonic Pact already has that ability. So what to do?
Deck of Many Things (3)
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen:
- Create two Treasure artifact tokens with “T, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.”
- Create a 2/2 white Knight creature token with vigilance.
- Shuffle up to one target card from your graveyard into your library. You draw a card.
- Exile all nonland permanents you control.
No more "Draw two cards." The flavor here is a Dungeons and Dragons item. Ondezeeboot shared a later variant of the card. See it by following the link I provided above.
My personal take on the card:
You judge the card.
I wanted the countdown to be 3, 2, 1, BOOM (Create three treasures, draw two cards, exile 1 permanent and lose all nonland but I couldn't find a good thing for '2') I personally like the mirrored wording on the last two abilities. "you don't control" and "you control"
A final thing I want to share. In my honest opinion: I do not think it is very fair to have all combo pieces of a combo be custom made. The players won't know what hit them. I usually prefer having "up to one" part of a combo be custom but the rest has to be provided by Wizards of the Coast. Therefore I have decided not to make synergy cards with Demonic Pact via customization because I very much want more Demonic Pact variants into the cube (and the only way to do this is by custom making them.)
Cheers <3
I am very much looking for feedback so if you have any thoughts to share, please spam me up. I wish to continue working with Demonic Pact and to have the card be awesome in cube. The most recent set, Ravnica Allegiance, gave us Captive Audience who plays a little like Pact and then again, not at all like Pact. If you have any ideas of wish to mention a card that could synergize with Pact, please share. If you have any custom ideas, please show them as well
Thank you very much.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Worth noting, the version of Deck of Many Things I will add to my cube is the one found in this post. Or, in words:
Deck of Many Things
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen --
* Create two colorless Treasure artifact tokens with ", Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color."
* Create a 2/2 white Knight creature token with vigilance.
* Shuffle up to one target card from your graveyard into your library. Draw a card.
* Sacrifice Deck of Many Things. You lose 7 life.
The gameplay of this version has been really solid. Deck of Many Things ended up as a Demonic Pact-light, and that's actually exactly how I liked it best in testing. Pact has to be the poster child for the archetype! While I do want the custom card to strengthen the archetype, I don't want it to outperform Pact. One of the interesting interactions I've seen come into play multiple times was the fact that Deck can shuffle back a bounce spell from your graveyard, that you then hopefully get to draw before you have to sacrifice Deck, so you can keep generating value. It's quite a satisfying play when you pull it off. Another great interaction was the one with Marionette Master, where hoarding the Treasure tokens was a legit way to finish people off. In response to your design, I have to say three Treasure tokens seems like a dangerous amount! Lastly, the Knight token was often the first option I chose, if only to put a body on the board to get to the late game where my engines started really running.
Deck of Many Things
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen --
* Create two colorless Treasure artifact tokens with "
, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color."* Create a 2/2 white Knight creature token with vigilance.
* Shuffle up to one target card from your graveyard into your library. Draw a card.
* Sacrifice Deck of Many Things. You lose 7 life.
The gameplay of this version has been really solid. Deck of Many Things ended up as a Demonic Pact-light, and that's actually exactly how I liked it best in testing. Pact has to be the poster child for the archetype! While I do want the custom card to strengthen the archetype, I don't want it to outperform Pact. One of the interesting interactions I've seen come into play multiple times was the fact that Deck can shuffle back a bounce spell from your graveyard, that you then hopefully get to draw before you have to sacrifice Deck, so you can keep generating value. It's quite a satisfying play when you pull it off. Another great interaction was the one with Marionette Master, where hoarding the Treasure tokens was a legit way to finish people off. In response to your design, I have to say three Treasure tokens seems like a dangerous amount! Lastly, the Knight token was often the first option I chose, if only to put a body on the board to get to the late game where my engines started really running.
Has anyone found two good partners for their cube?
I am thinking about the creatures with the keyword ‘Partner with..’ from Battlebond. Visual spoiler, here:
http://mythicspoiler.com/bbd/index.html
I kind of want a pair in my cube but I can’t seem to find any interesting ones.
I am thinking about the creatures with the keyword ‘Partner with..’ from Battlebond. Visual spoiler, here:
http://mythicspoiler.com/bbd/index.html
I kind of want a pair in my cube but I can’t seem to find any interesting ones.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I like Pir and Toothy a lot
Chris Taylor
Contributor
+1 on Pir, Imaginative Rascal and Toothy, Imaginary Friend. You don't even need to squadron them- they're playable by themselves depending on your cube's themes.
For those who have tried it, I'd like some input on
I'm trying to give my Selesnya section a direction and I was interested in "destroy the board" archetype.
Basically you jam white hate cards and use green's recursion to break the symmetry. I know this isn't considered fun by many, but my group likes the play pattern so long as the games don't linger for too long after casting the world ending effect.
Looking into white cards that can help, I found Faith's Reward, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter.
Faith's Reward surprised me because it isn't as narrow as I thought it would be. Sacrifice outlets for creatures allow you to double up on the outlet's effect and any ETB creatures you are running.
With Zuran Orb or Sylvan Safekeeper you can actually ramp. Works nicely with Chromatic Star and friends too.
It seems the card would be awesome in red with Wildfire, Sneak Attack, Greater Gargadon and Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
Black and an aristocrat theme seems an easy include as well.
Last upside is that it's an instant meaning you can play around sweepers very nicely, allowing you to overextend.
The biggest downside is if you go for a big turn sacrifice everything and then countered or have your graveyard removed. But I think it's fine for a card to have a few counters. What are you experiences with the card? Did I miss anything obvious?
I'm trying to give my Selesnya section a direction and I was interested in "destroy the board" archetype.
Basically you jam white hate cards and use green's recursion to break the symmetry. I know this isn't considered fun by many, but my group likes the play pattern so long as the games don't linger for too long after casting the world ending effect.
Looking into white cards that can help, I found Faith's Reward, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter.
Faith's Reward surprised me because it isn't as narrow as I thought it would be. Sacrifice outlets for creatures allow you to double up on the outlet's effect and any ETB creatures you are running.
With Zuran Orb or Sylvan Safekeeper you can actually ramp. Works nicely with Chromatic Star and friends too.
It seems the card would be awesome in red with Wildfire, Sneak Attack, Greater Gargadon and Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
Black and an aristocrat theme seems an easy include as well.
Last upside is that it's an instant meaning you can play around sweepers very nicely, allowing you to overextend.
The biggest downside is if you go for a big turn sacrifice everything and then countered or have your graveyard removed. But I think it's fine for a card to have a few counters. What are you experiences with the card? Did I miss anything obvious?
For those who have tried it, I'd like some input on
I haven't tried it, but I play it a lot in commander. It is okay, it is usually just a nice trick you can bring out with Sunforger. It just costs so much. You can combine it with Cataclysm, but that is 8 mana.
You would also never be willing to hold up 4 mana over the course of a couple of turns against your opponent as an instant speed trick, unless you had other things to do with that mana at instant speed, as that just ties up so many resources being reactive.
The only think I can think of working it with is as you said, free sacrifice outlets. Then you can get some nice value out of it. As then you are being proactive using it as a fancy trick with Sneak Attack and Zuran Orb etc. But then I am not entirely sure it is worth dedicating a whole card that has to work with these to get full function out of.
Also, one card in that green recursion suite you missed was:
It is a little slow and clunky, but because it has the delayed trigger to brining the lands back, you don't need to invest mana at the same time as doing your Cataclysm/Catastrophe.