Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Well, that one obviously is my second five drop in red already, what with me having a dinosaur sub theme in RG
It is cool because it fits both wildfire and aggro as a curvetopper, and because it is an angry T-Rex. It just doesn't provide much room for synergies, so I stick with SCG and Zealous Conscripts.
Charging Monstrosaur is great. He's simple, versatile, fits a wide range of strategies and is fun. Not much synergy or cool combinations going for him, but he doesn't need them!
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I'll throw my hat in for skargaan hellkite, love that card
I really, really like Charging Monstrosaur actually.
Roooar!!
This is probably the most elegant card from Ixalan. It is big and it knows how to SMASH!
The general "dies to removal" argument is something I like to avoid, but when something is leaving you behind more than just some mana and a single card, I find that the Vindicate test is worth discussing. I agree that it is super annoying when people who discuss the cubability of creature cards based on wether or not they die to removal. It's just not helpful because most threats are going to lose to getting removed. I wish people would only bring it up when it is relevant, like in the discussion of cards akin to Crimson Honor Guard.
I was browsing cubes for discovery/learning purposes and I saw quite a few with
What surprised me was that some of these cubes were quite high powered and didn't feature the typical Lion's Eye Diamond. I always assumed that without the combo it would be too slow and durdlely. I'm already running some Chromatic Star, Executioner's Capsule, Mishra's Bauble, etc. so I'm all down for more cards to make them even more relevant.
How has this card played out for those of you running it?
What surprised me was that some of these cubes were quite high powered and didn't feature the typical Lion's Eye Diamond. I always assumed that without the combo it would be too slow and durdlely. I'm already running some Chromatic Star, Executioner's Capsule, Mishra's Bauble, etc. so I'm all down for more cards to make them even more relevant.
How has this card played out for those of you running it?
I was browsing cubes for discovery/learning purposes and I saw quite a few with
What surprised me was that some of these cubes were quite high powered and didn't feature the typical Lion's Eye Diamond. I always assumed that without the combo it would be too slow and durdlely. I'm already running some Chromatic Star, Executioner's Capsule, Mishra's Bauble, etc. so I'm all down for more cards to make them even more relevant.
How has this card played out for those of you running it?
People run the Salvagers because it's good with Spellbombs and Chromatic Star/Sphere, along with a few other decent 1 drop artifacts. Its a way to gain an incremental advantage in a color which normally does not do so in that manner.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I've found it's difficult to support Salvagers even in the perfect deck for it; you need to have a lower power level and to have enough cogs with unique effects (so that it's more than just a big Azure Mage); there aren't many of those and you still need to draft enough of them and have them be worthy of inclusion in their own right
I'd assume this guy would just be better than the Salvagers in 90% of the cases:
I think this is probably (definitely) true, but I still personally like Salvagers more because I find it a little more interesting. Salvagers gets to be part of some fun durdly engines, like in WB recursive artifact decks with Syndicate Trafficker and/or Marionette Master.
Definitely a durdly, lower-powered type of card. So, like, what's not to love?
In my experience with the card back in the day, Salvagers is very slow if you are not doing something busted with it. It costs 4 to use, 2 to recur a card and then whatever you need to play that artifact and use it. I mean:
Turn4) Spend 4 mana to play Salvagers
Turn 5) Spend 4 mana to recur, play and sac Pyrite Spellbomb
Turn 6) Spend 4 mana to recur, play and sac Pyrite Spellbomb
Compares very poorly to
Turn 4) Play Flametongue Kavu, do 4 points of damage.
And Flametongue Kavu, while a great creature, is not exactly the pinnacle of power. I just think about it and see no reason to play Salvagers when I can play Waterfront Bouncer, Man'O War for less or Serra Angel for one more. It's a lot of work both in play and deck construction for such a little payoff.
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I've also been thinking about two cards that seem constructed-only:
I've been thinking about supporting combo in Cube and ways to do it with the bare minimun possible number of cards. And it made me think, wait, aren't there are lot of combos with Doomsday? You can create small Storm piles, win with Laboratory Maniac or find a two-card combo with enough mana to put it into play. The big drawback is the BBB casting cost and the fact that I don't see anyone but the cube owner dipping into Doomsday combos.
I know people have been playing Rebels in cube, using errata to give other creatures the Rebel subtype. But I'm not sure if people still do that or if they have all replaced their Rebels with the new "Humans" theme. I like the peek into Magic's history a cube provides and being able to support Rebels would be very cool. What are your thoughts on it?
Turn4) Spend 4 mana to play Salvagers
Turn 5) Spend 4 mana to recur, play and sac Pyrite Spellbomb
Turn 6) Spend 4 mana to recur, play and sac Pyrite Spellbomb
Compares very poorly to
Turn 4) Play Flametongue Kavu, do 4 points of damage.
And Flametongue Kavu, while a great creature, is not exactly the pinnacle of power. I just think about it and see no reason to play Salvagers when I can play Waterfront Bouncer, Man'O War for less or Serra Angel for one more. It's a lot of work both in play and deck construction for such a little payoff.
--
I've also been thinking about two cards that seem constructed-only:
I've been thinking about supporting combo in Cube and ways to do it with the bare minimun possible number of cards. And it made me think, wait, aren't there are lot of combos with Doomsday? You can create small Storm piles, win with Laboratory Maniac or find a two-card combo with enough mana to put it into play. The big drawback is the BBB casting cost and the fact that I don't see anyone but the cube owner dipping into Doomsday combos.
I know people have been playing Rebels in cube, using errata to give other creatures the Rebel subtype. But I'm not sure if people still do that or if they have all replaced their Rebels with the new "Humans" theme. I like the peek into Magic's history a cube provides and being able to support Rebels would be very cool. What are your thoughts on it?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
FTK is possibly the best red 4 cmc creature in history?
I've also been thinking about two cards that seem constructed-only:
I've been thinking about supporting combo in Cube and ways to do it with the bare minimun possible number of cards. And it made me think, wait, aren't there are lot of combos with Doomsday? You can create small Storm piles, win with Laboratory Maniac or find a two-card combo with enough mana to put it into play. The big drawback is the BBB casting cost and the fact that I don't see anyone but the cube owner dipping into Doomsday combos.
Safra wrote THE primer on Doomsday in Cube back in the day:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/fight-club.560/page-67#post-49121
Don't get me wrong, a Nektraatal with a 4/2 body is great but it's not an effect that comes across as overly strong in the typical cube. I just think the problem of Salvagers is that it takes a lot of work to get the value of a FTK or a Man o'War or any other ETB creature that does it job three turns earlier.
Or, to put it another way, how much better is Salvagers compared to Archivist and does it compensate the additional investment in mana and drafting?
Wow, thanks! And the most amazing thing is: I already run all 99% of all these cards. I added Doomsday to my cube, forced it and...it works!
UB Control Doomsday from CubeTutor.com
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You could argue this deck doesn't need the combo at all, but the fact that you can build something like this is amazing. I'm going to try and add a bit of support and see how things work out.
EDIT: Apparently people use Experimental Frenzy as part of Legacy builds now. And that card is already on the list!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, fair enough, I forgot about the Phoenix :') (In my defense, I've never played with or against it...) Hellrider is really close too, but goes in less decks.
I think FTK is probably the best red 4 for Cube. Powerful effect, will usually trade off with two things off the ETB + body, and it's super splashable. I'd play it in any R/x I'd draft, from aggro to midrange to even control as a kill spell + body. It's just so versatile. There are cards with higher ceilings in certain builds, but I don't think it can be beat as far as universal utility is concerned.
Personally, I think the tier list is:
1. Rekindling Phoenix
2. Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3. FTK
4. Hellrider
Rekindling Phoenix has the best damage output and is impossibly hard to kill in some cases. Pia and Kiran Nalaar make a lot of bodies, two of which are evasive, have good synergy with random artifacts, and are just generally easy to abuse. FTK is basically a red Ravenous Chupacabra with +2 power, so it's pretty strong. Hellrider has probably the best damage output other than Rekindling Phoenix, but only in go-wide aggressive decks.
Dom is right, but if you have a slower, lower power cube, with lots of cogs, then it's great. I really like it. It lets white dabble in a graveyard role more, with artifact overlap, and encourages decks built around it.
Whether or not FTK is the best red creature of all time or not, the comparison isn't really appropriate. Yes, there is lots of more efficient removal, but this is about incremental card advantage to slowly take over the game in a colour that finds it difficult, in a card that player enjoy playing and building around.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Also in the ring: hazoret?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Frankly, it's strange FTK is even in this discussion. I still can't believe it was printed as an uncommon!