Has anyone tried this out? I'm not sure whether in practice it'll play more like Rhystic Study or Standstill but I'd like to give it a shot. Also helps with the smirking fish theme in blue.
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
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Has anyone tried this out? I'm not sure whether in practice it'll play more like Rhystic Study or Standstill but I'd like to give it a shot. Also helps with the smirking fish theme in blue.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I think the words "Non creature" limits its use
Mystic Remora is strong but I don't see it working. I would rather play the more fun Standstill.
In multiplayer environments mystic remora is way better than ancestral recall, in 1vs1 it will usually draw you 2 to 3 cards for 2 mana spread over two turns.
BUT it is a miserable topdeck in the late game.
BUT it is a miserable topdeck in the late game.
What do you guys think of this card? I can't evaluate it in a cube environment very well, despite having interesting tap effects in my cube!
Very interesting Card, works well with landfall, looters, retrace and value tappers.
Now I'm actually interested in trying it!
EDIT:
I already wanted cards that put lands from hand into play as my primary ramp source (besides untapping land effects) but now there's even a nice value combo:
To make it more disruptable (is that a word?) you could swap out the Scout with Skyshroud Ranger, or you could make it more expensive with Llanowar Scout.
Now I'm actually interested in trying it!
EDIT:
I already wanted cards that put lands from hand into play as my primary ramp source (besides untapping land effects) but now there's even a nice value combo:
To make it more disruptable (is that a word?) you could swap out the Scout with Skyshroud Ranger, or you could make it more expensive with Llanowar Scout.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Setting yourself back a land drop is a serious cost though, this only works in low curve decks, or decks that can play additional lands.
Speaking of setting back land drops, there are some other cards I'd like to hear your opinion on:
I already play Living Twister, Deprive and Bounce Lands for triggering landfall/using lands for some other value. Like I said in the other posting of mine, I do play cards that care about this (looters mainly in R but also in U, other discard effects in BRUG, cards than enable more land drops in G, and now returning lands back to hand in U - landfall is something I'm still thinking about in which colours I'd put it in, G is safe but R also looks good).
To me, this looks like a more interesting way to approach Ramp in general and Lands.dec, where all the cards can be used in other decks as well, and you don't need to add narrow cards like Life from the Loam for the engine running.
I already play Living Twister, Deprive and Bounce Lands for triggering landfall/using lands for some other value. Like I said in the other posting of mine, I do play cards that care about this (looters mainly in R but also in U, other discard effects in BRUG, cards than enable more land drops in G, and now returning lands back to hand in U - landfall is something I'm still thinking about in which colours I'd put it in, G is safe but R also looks good).
To me, this looks like a more interesting way to approach Ramp in general and Lands.dec, where all the cards can be used in other decks as well, and you don't need to add narrow cards like Life from the Loam for the engine running.
Meloku is good enough that any synergy he might have with other cards doesn't matter. Unless that card is Fastbond.
The other cards are weak. The problem with the Kamigawa "Return land to hand" mechanic, as I see it, is that it was hard to give it a fair cost. At 1 it would be too cheap, but at 2 and higher it's too expensive.
Compare:
->
->
->
Most of the time, the ability won't be as useful as a more boring ability that does the same thing.
While I've drafted Kamigawa, I don't remember how the mechanic worked in limited.
The other cards are weak. The problem with the Kamigawa "Return land to hand" mechanic, as I see it, is that it was hard to give it a fair cost. At 1 it would be too cheap, but at 2 and higher it's too expensive.
Compare:
-> -> -> Most of the time, the ability won't be as useful as a more boring ability that does the same thing.
While I've drafted Kamigawa, I don't remember how the mechanic worked in limited.
Yeah, Cloudskater looks pretty broing to me, and I prefer other looters.
Meloku's definitely too strong for the powerlevel I have, but I wanted to mention it.
Soramaro is a way more interesting finisher than Mahamoti Djinn, but I also prefer Sturmgeist. UGx lands does have lots of mana available, and Soramaro looks like a debatable mana sink to me.
Why the heck are you comparing Uyo to Glasskite?
Seriously, Uyo does have a real cost, but copying a more costly spell with it to generate value, or a counterspell to protect itself is something I find very exciting. Glasskite just doesn't look very interactive, nor very interesting, it's just a Ux control finisher that doesn't need extra work to be done.
Meloku's definitely too strong for the powerlevel I have, but I wanted to mention it.
Soramaro is a way more interesting finisher than Mahamoti Djinn, but I also prefer Sturmgeist. UGx lands does have lots of mana available, and Soramaro looks like a debatable mana sink to me.
Why the heck are you comparing Uyo to Glasskite?
Seriously, Uyo does have a real cost, but copying a more costly spell with it to generate value, or a counterspell to protect itself is something I find very exciting. Glasskite just doesn't look very interactive, nor very interesting, it's just a Ux control finisher that doesn't need extra work to be done.What I'm trying to show is that these cards are not very great by comparing them to middling cards that do pretty much the same thing. As in, if I had the choice, I would play Djinn over Soramaro or not use its ability. I simply don't think the cards work well. If I see them in a cube, there's a big chance I would simply play them as dumb beaters or move to other archetypes rather than think of ways of activating them.
You do have a point.
More often than not, I'm posting here throwing in random thoughts right away before thinking them through thoroughly. Uyo still looks somewhat interesting to me, as I do not have a high powerlevel, and most cards copying instants/sorceries don't look interesting enough.
More often than not, I'm posting here throwing in random thoughts right away before thinking them through thoroughly. Uyo still looks somewhat interesting to me, as I do not have a high powerlevel, and most cards copying instants/sorceries don't look interesting enough.
That's why we are here for, right? Nothing wrong with thinking about weird cards!
Nothing wrong with thinking about weird cards!
Most of the "return a land" cards are pretty bad. Meloku is only good because he-
-Converts land drops into board presence.
-Makes Evasive Tokens.
-Can make multiple creatures in a turn.
-Comes down during a point in the game where bouncing a land isn't a super meaningful tempo loss.
-Has an ok body for blocking.
-Converts land drops into board presence.
-Makes Evasive Tokens.
-Can make multiple creatures in a turn.
-Comes down during a point in the game where bouncing a land isn't a super meaningful tempo loss.
-Has an ok body for blocking.
I'm sure I saw something about this card before but can't for the life of me find it. What do we think? Seems pretty powerful.
I'm sure I saw something about this card before but can't for the life of me find it. What do we think? Seems pretty powerful.
I posted that card originally on this forum. I also don’t remember where
I really enjoy it for a few reasons.
- Green 6 drops are actually pretty crappy.
If you do not support super ramp or don't have many special lands then Primeval Titan is good but not great. The ETB on Earthshaker Giant is likely better as a green finisher.The other 2 graveyard guys are good, but I'm not sure you need 2 recursive 6 drops. I personally use the Hydra and it works nicely.
- Green interacts well with creatures, meaning this guy is pretty easy to find with Fauna Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Finale of Devastation, ...Are you comfortable having this effect readily available to your green decks? If not, then you are probably better off with Overrun or Overwhelming Stampede which will be much tougher to find in your average game.
- He is more balanced than the other overrun creatures like Craterhoof Behemoth (haste and too much damage) and End-Raze Forerunners (haste and vigilance, so attacking has no risk). The giant is also more castable, so accessible to more decks.
- Most important of all, he saved me a slot in green. I was able to cut Primeval Titan and Overwhelming Stampede and replace them with Earthshaker Giant.
The biggest downside for me is that he is only available in foil. I hate foils
- Green 6 drops are actually pretty crappy.
If you do not support super ramp or don't have many special lands then Primeval Titan is good but not great. The ETB on Earthshaker Giant is likely better as a green finisher.The other 2 graveyard guys are good, but I'm not sure you need 2 recursive 6 drops. I personally use the Hydra and it works nicely.
- Green interacts well with creatures, meaning this guy is pretty easy to find with Fauna Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Finale of Devastation, ...Are you comfortable having this effect readily available to your green decks? If not, then you are probably better off with Overrun or Overwhelming Stampede which will be much tougher to find in your average game.
- He is more balanced than the other overrun creatures like Craterhoof Behemoth (haste and too much damage) and End-Raze Forerunners (haste and vigilance, so attacking has no risk). The giant is also more castable, so accessible to more decks.
- Most important of all, he saved me a slot in green. I was able to cut Primeval Titan and Overwhelming Stampede and replace them with Earthshaker Giant.
The biggest downside for me is that he is only available in foil. I hate foils
I really enjoy it for a few reasons.
- Green 6 drops are actually pretty crappy.
If you do not support super ramp or don't have many special lands then Primeval Titan is good but not great. The ETB on Earthshaker Giant is likely better as a green finisher.The other 2 graveyard guys are good, but I'm not sure you need 2 recursive 6 drops. I personally use the Hydra and it works nicely.
I don't think that this is true at all. Green has a plethora of 6 drops that do all sorts of cool things. Carnage Tyrant is a big threat that can't be interacted with by decks that aren't playing creatures. Gargos, Vicious Watcher is an 8/7(!) Vigilance that just fights things if the opponent tries to remove it or something else. Greenwarden of Murasa is basically a big green mulldrifter. Rampaging Baloths makes 4/4s forever and ever if you can make your land drops. Even something stupid like Deadwood Treefolk can be quite good in the right deck (in his case-some sort of blink shell where he can be used to basically return his owner's graveyard to their hand) I could go on more, but I think the point is clear- there are a lot of great 6 drops for green decks to be playing.
Also, don't use Honored Hydra as an example of being a "crappy" 6-drop. The card is really powerful if you can enable it with either discard or self-mill. It's not really a six drop for ramp so much as it is a 4-drop for graveyard based synergy decks. Sure, it's not making the cut in the vintage cube, but most 6 or 7 drops that don't just outright win the game wouldn't anyway.
Now, if you want to make the argument that green 6s don't have as high of a ceiling as green's 5 and 7 drops, then maybe you have an argument. Even then, most of the great 5 and 7 drops for green are mistakes anyway. Like, Thragtusk was never properly balanced because no one at WOTC R&D saw it's power, and Nissa, Who Shakes the World was also a bit better than intended.
Your points about the Earthshaker Giant are all generally correct, and they're not really what I am responding to. I don't like the card much but that's because I find overrun effects in general to be frustrating. It's a fine magic card otherwise and there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing it. I Just don't think you should diss 210 other cards to prop up one card which isn't even the best in it's respective slot.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Honored hydra is a crappy 6 drop.
It's just also a great 4 drop
It's just also a great 4 drop
As far as Thragtusk is concerned, the card went under the radar during WOTC's development cycle for INN/RTR standard. Basically, they had designed Thragtusk as a 2-in-1 answer to Control decks and Burn decks. The card was set up so that it had a "leaves the battlefield" trigger instead of a "dies" trigger to combat Vapor Snag and exile-based removal, while it gained life to shut down Hellrider decks. Basically, it was meant to be a sideboard card like Obstinate Baloth. The story goes that the card never saw the amount of mainboard testing it should have received because, at the same time, Avacyn Restored's Wolfir Silverheart was being developed. The silverheart was perceived as being more powerful since it could theoretically add 12 power to the board for 5 mana. The development team spent all of their time trying to add 12 power to the board with their green decks instead of making sure Thragtusk wasn't too good outside of the matchups it was trying to hate out. Here is part of an article talking about Thragtusk:
Nissa has been cited as one of the reasons why U/G food decks were too good in standard while Oko was legal and is still one of the primary forces behind simic and sultai ramp decks in current standard. It also was one of the cards that made Green Devotion decks too good in Pioneer. She also helped lead to the banning of Leyline of Abundance, since players were able to start playing their Nissas as early as turn 2 if they had a double leyline and a Llanowar elves effect in their opening hand. They talked about her power level in one of the of the WOTC developer streams.
TL;DR, Thragtusk was made for sideboards and wasn't perceived as being very strong, Nissa, Who Shakes the World is a catalyst to convert early game ramp into 10+ mana by turn 4 or 5.
Honored hydra is a crappy 6 drop.
It's just also a great 4 drop
Lol yep.
@TrainmasterGT
The fact that I play the card in my cube should be a testament to the fact that I do feel the card is powerful. I just chose to say 6 drop since that is where I put it on my spreadsheet, but you are right that it does often play out like a 4 drop (just like Rampaging Baloths is more often a 7 drop than a 6 drop).
Onto your other points, yes there are some cool 6 drops but I'm not sure they are necessarily good. Carnage Tyrant is hell to interact with (not what I'm personally going for) and is mostly a control killer. Gargos, Vicious Watcher is huge, but not that impactful. He gets chumped blocked all day and doesn't really stabilize the board (no ETB, no lifegain, no card draw). It would be different if he had trample to actually close out the game.
Greenwarden of Murasa and Deadwood Treefolk are indeed decent, but I feel that you can do better if you aim at supporting the GY, since good options exist elsewhere along the curve (or even on curve with Seasons Past!).
So yeah, maybe I undersold the green 6's: they aren't exactly crappy, however I still do believe that the slot is weak (or as you say, weaker than others). Because of that, I choose to play one extra excellent 5 drop instead of another mediocre 6.
I just said I enjoyed it and one of those reasons was because in my view, green 6's aren't great. I was hoping the rest of my reasons would do the propping as well
Also, bonus fun 6 drops
The fact that I play the card in my cube should be a testament to the fact that I do feel the card is powerful. I just chose to say 6 drop since that is where I put it on my spreadsheet, but you are right that it does often play out like a 4 drop (just like Rampaging Baloths is more often a 7 drop than a 6 drop).
Onto your other points, yes there are some cool 6 drops but I'm not sure they are necessarily good. Carnage Tyrant is hell to interact with (not what I'm personally going for) and is mostly a control killer. Gargos, Vicious Watcher is huge, but not that impactful. He gets chumped blocked all day and doesn't really stabilize the board (no ETB, no lifegain, no card draw). It would be different if he had trample to actually close out the game.
Greenwarden of Murasa and Deadwood Treefolk are indeed decent, but I feel that you can do better if you aim at supporting the GY, since good options exist elsewhere along the curve (or even on curve with Seasons Past!).
So yeah, maybe I undersold the green 6's: they aren't exactly crappy, however I still do believe that the slot is weak (or as you say, weaker than others). Because of that, I choose to play one extra excellent 5 drop instead of another mediocre 6.
I just said I enjoyed it and one of those reasons was because in my view, green 6's aren't great. I was hoping the rest of my reasons would do the propping as well
Also, bonus fun 6 drops