Is this actually useful as discard support or is it just about pumping out copies?
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Is this actually useful as discard support or is it just about pumping out copies?
Pack Rat is not discard support, it warps games around itself if left unanswered. You just play out your copy and ride it to victory if your opponent can't interact in a meaningful way with removal or a board wipe. It just completely dumbs down any decision making in a match.
Higher powered cubes can likely deal with it more effectively and efficiently, but it's still not good to include for most environments.
Higher powered cubes can likely deal with it more effectively and efficiently, but it's still not good to include for most environments.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I tested this for a while as a discard outlet, but making additional pack rats almost always outvalues whatever discard shenanigans you were up to. If you are looking for a high powered discard outlet, might I suggest Liliana of the Veil? I’ve since cut her because the Esper planeswalker deck was outperforming the planted archetypes, but she actually did fill the role of discard outlet well!
Yeah, it's what I feared. Oh well. Thanks for the suggestion too, Onderzeeboot, but I was interested in the Rat because it was a 2-cost creature! 
Yeah, it's what I feared. Oh well. Thanks for the suggestion too, Onderzeeboot, but I was interested in the Rat because it was a 2-cost creature!
Although there really aren't a lot of good 2-cost discard creatures, Rat isn't one of them because it takes over the game.
If you want the discard for Madness, then Heir of Falkenrath is a good option since it's a free outlet which gives you upside.
If you want the discard for a Drake Haven cycling/discard kind of deck, Olivia's Dragoon is a fine option.
In addition, Call the Bloodline is a great source of creatures in addition to providing discard support. Even Reanimator is fine with playing Call the Bloodline because it's just so efficient at putting things into the yard.
Arguably, I think you'd be best off running a second copy of Oona's Prowler and a copy of Call the Bloodline . That way, you'd have extra support for your discard decks and also be giving aggressive black decks an extra evasive beater to play with.
Also, I really think you should be running both Wild Mongrel and Noose Constrictor if you're trying to support discard decks. I don't see a point to running one and not the other when you're using them explicitly for archetype support because they're such efficient enablers.
That's another reason why Looter il-Kor is so good.
Other cheap (0-2 mana) options that weren't mentioned, most of which don't enable T3 Arrogant Wurm or Reckless Wurm:
I found Arrogant Wurm madness too hard to make work, especially since a vanilla-ish 4/4 on T3 is basically par for the course in cube. Drake Haven is a much better madness payoff that doesn't depend solely on everything being cast on curve.
Other cheap (0-2 mana) options that weren't mentioned, most of which don't enable T3 Arrogant Wurm or Reckless Wurm:
I found Arrogant Wurm madness too hard to make work, especially since a vanilla-ish 4/4 on T3 is basically par for the course in cube. Drake Haven is a much better madness payoff that doesn't depend solely on everything being cast on curve.
Of the mentioned cards, I run Looting, Pyromancer and Cryptbreaker.
What about Putrid Imp, Heir of Falkenrath, Lightning Axe and Thrill of Possibility? I also somewhat like Furyblade Vampire.
Good payoffs are the already mentioned Drake Haven, Spirit Cairn (for lower power), Ruthless Sniper, Flameblade Adept, Shadowstorm Vizier, Glint-Horn Buccaneer, Bone Miser, Madness cards, Reanimator targets and, if you don't mind a lot of power, Archfiend of Ifnir.
What about Putrid Imp, Heir of Falkenrath, Lightning Axe and Thrill of Possibility? I also somewhat like Furyblade Vampire.
Good payoffs are the already mentioned Drake Haven, Spirit Cairn (for lower power), Ruthless Sniper, Flameblade Adept, Shadowstorm Vizier, Glint-Horn Buccaneer, Bone Miser, Madness cards, Reanimator targets and, if you don't mind a lot of power, Archfiend of Ifnir.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Call the Bloodline has been surprisingly relevant for me. It's better than I would have guessed.
Ah yes, didn't mention it because I'm still not quite sure if I'm adding enchantments to my newly designed cube (so far, I only have DPact and Sagas) as I don't want to run any narrow enchantment removal. That's why I forget to mention some good choices sometimes lel
other discard outlets I personally like or find interesting (creatures only):
one-shot/etb: Benthic Biomancer Bloodrage Brawler Rotting Rats Champion of Wits Sunscourge Champion
always and with no additional cost: Tireless Tribe Noose Constrictor Cephalid Inkshrouder Resilient Wanderer Psychatog Prognostic Sphinx
with additional cost:Cloudseeder Skirk Ridge Exhumer Sliversmith Icatian Crier Undertaker Fauna Shaman Waterfront Bouncer Merciless Javelineer
attacking/damaging: Jeskai Elder Glint-Horn Buccaneer Tomebound Lich Rankle, Master of Pranks
looters: Senate Guildmage Civilized Scholar Grixis Battlemage Cephalid Broker
play out of gy: Haunted Dead Stitchwing Skaab Advanced Stitchwing
special: Cunning Lethemancer Murder of Crows Sage of the Falls
other discard outlets I personally like or find interesting (creatures only):
one-shot/etb: Benthic Biomancer Bloodrage Brawler Rotting Rats Champion of Wits Sunscourge Champion
always and with no additional cost: Tireless Tribe Noose Constrictor Cephalid Inkshrouder Resilient Wanderer Psychatog Prognostic Sphinx
with additional cost:Cloudseeder Skirk Ridge Exhumer Sliversmith Icatian Crier Undertaker Fauna Shaman Waterfront Bouncer Merciless Javelineer
attacking/damaging: Jeskai Elder Glint-Horn Buccaneer Tomebound Lich Rankle, Master of Pranks
looters: Senate Guildmage Civilized Scholar Grixis Battlemage Cephalid Broker
play out of gy: Haunted Dead Stitchwing Skaab Advanced Stitchwing
special: Cunning Lethemancer Murder of Crows Sage of the Falls
On pure speculation, do you guys think these will be reprinted in a extra awesome edition such as Masterpiece Inventions etc.?
Unlike most cubes I can actually use these because:
My cube is way above 1000 cards
The players are not fixed at a certain color or colors but change colors and themes as the tournament progresses and depending on what the opponents are playing.
Which means they are awesome, not seen every tournament and they only very rarely ‘ruin games’ as these types of Swords of X and Y tend to in a regular cube.
The reason why I ask is because I have the original 5 in Kaladesh Inventions. How likely are these to be printed with any special treatment in your personal opinion. I won’t hold any guesses against you.
Unlike most cubes I can actually use these because:
My cube is way above 1000 cards
The players are not fixed at a certain color or colors but change colors and themes as the tournament progresses and depending on what the opponents are playing.
Which means they are awesome, not seen every tournament and they only very rarely ‘ruin games’ as these types of Swords of X and Y tend to in a regular cube.
The reason why I ask is because I have the original 5 in Kaladesh Inventions. How likely are these to be printed with any special treatment in your personal opinion. I won’t hold any guesses against you.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think they are going to complete the cycle before they get that treatment.
old border judge foil swords are so sexy. I almost got a SoFI one for Stoneblade (I had promo Jitte and regular BSkull)
This looks neat! Any thoughts?
Assume it cannot be blocked.
And can’t block then. And this is weird for a Boros card to not be able to block or be blocked.
I think it is very, very powerful to Lightning Bolt a creature each turn. There will be scenarios where the opponent will have a creature in hand but cannot see a way to cast it because it will get one-shotted. Other times it will do nothing because the opponent has no creatures.
I am not a fan, so 1 small down vote from me
I think it is very, very powerful to Lightning Bolt a creature each turn. There will be scenarios where the opponent will have a creature in hand but cannot see a way to cast it because it will get one-shotted. Other times it will do nothing because the opponent has no creatures.
I am not a fan, so 1 small down vote from me
Other times it will do what creatures normally do when they attack: deal damage to the opponent. It will (almost) never do "nothing"
The ‘it’ is the ability.
“
: The next time Soltari Guerrillas would deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, it deals that damage to target creature instead.“I don't like the flavour. Firemane Avenger on the other hand looks pretty cool.
I wanted to share my experiences with a card I tried recently that has been awesome:
Yes it's expensive, yes it mana intensive, but wow is it fun and synergistic!
The reason I wanted to add this was to include black into my Izzet artifact and spell decks. In my cube, Izzet plays both of these archetypes to some success and this seemed like the perfect mix to push people into black.
To maximize it's potency, you need a good mix of cheap spells and ideally some card filtering to clear the top of your deck should you hit a brick. This in my eyes is just good deck building anyways, but this encourages you to do it more explicitly. Here are a few (high powered) deck lists to illustrate
In this first list we have a good mix of spells and artifacts. The mana rocks and Daretti make sure that you can cast your Citadel ahead of the curve. What makes the deck really fun and powerful though is that it is able to use both parts of the Citadel: the card advantage and the sacrifice! With cards like Filigree Familiar and Young Pyromancer providing road blocks and sacrifice fodder, you are able to actually activate the Citadel!
The fun doesn't stop here though. Pyromancer's Goggles is another important part of the artifact/spells crossover that allow you to play Welder and Daretti in other roles than fatty cheats. Yawgmoth's Will also plays nicely in the cheap cantrips/spell decks as a form of redundancy.
UB control
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5e405d393611fb6916ab333e
Here is a UB artifact control deck that focuses on spell/artifact velocity with Citadel, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Urza, High Lord Artificer, Thing in the Ice and Rise from the Tides. I would have liked one or two more spells in that list, but it is still fine. Here we have a third piece of the artifact/spell crossover Torrential Gearhulk.
BW drain
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5e5e97a5a0b97a386ec638cb
Basically an aristocrat/aggro deck that can use the Citadel as card advantage and/or a finisher combined with all the other drain effects (which conveniently give you more life for more cards). Card velocity is once again the name of the game with Monastery Mentor, Blind Obedience and Seeker of the Way.
All these decks exemplify how (I feel) is best to maximize Bolas's Citadel: card velocity and cross support in other colors.
Card velocity: Chromatic Star, Faithless Looting, Preordain, Night's Whisper and their ilk are so important for the decks to function. They are also great at smoothing draws and allow you to double spell often, which I enjoy as it feels like there are more decisions in a game. Some (like the Star) are super important as they are colorless (giving access to cantrips to white for example) and have added bonus (like being sacrifice fodder). They won't do much without support, but provide enough cards and they become staples in a format.
Cross support: So (hopefully) you are considering the Citadel! Well alone it won't do much. But if you support artifact and spells deck in Izzet, then you probably have most of the pieces for it. Here is a quick list of what I deem interesting or essential support (essentially card velocity payoffs, artifact payoffs or sacrifice payoffs).
In multiplayer I also play extort cards as card velocity support (Syndic of Tithes, Basilica Screecher,...).
So there it is, a wall of text for a single card, but I've had such good experiences with it I wanted to share. Once again, my format is slower (multiplayer) and more high powered than most of the cubes here, but maybe you can make it work for you too!
Yes it's expensive, yes it mana intensive, but wow is it fun and synergistic!
The reason I wanted to add this was to include black into my Izzet artifact and spell decks. In my cube, Izzet plays both of these archetypes to some success and this seemed like the perfect mix to push people into black.
To maximize it's potency, you need a good mix of cheap spells and ideally some card filtering to clear the top of your deck should you hit a brick. This in my eyes is just good deck building anyways, but this encourages you to do it more explicitly. Here are a few (high powered) deck lists to illustrate
BR spells from CubeTutor.com
| | | | | |
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In this first list we have a good mix of spells and artifacts. The mana rocks and Daretti make sure that you can cast your Citadel ahead of the curve. What makes the deck really fun and powerful though is that it is able to use both parts of the Citadel: the card advantage and the sacrifice! With cards like Filigree Familiar and Young Pyromancer providing road blocks and sacrifice fodder, you are able to actually activate the Citadel!
The fun doesn't stop here though. Pyromancer's Goggles is another important part of the artifact/spells crossover that allow you to play Welder and Daretti in other roles than fatty cheats. Yawgmoth's Will also plays nicely in the cheap cantrips/spell decks as a form of redundancy.
UB control
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5e405d393611fb6916ab333e
Here is a UB artifact control deck that focuses on spell/artifact velocity with Citadel, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Urza, High Lord Artificer, Thing in the Ice and Rise from the Tides. I would have liked one or two more spells in that list, but it is still fine. Here we have a third piece of the artifact/spell crossover Torrential Gearhulk.
BW drain
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5e5e97a5a0b97a386ec638cb
Basically an aristocrat/aggro deck that can use the Citadel as card advantage and/or a finisher combined with all the other drain effects (which conveniently give you more life for more cards). Card velocity is once again the name of the game with Monastery Mentor, Blind Obedience and Seeker of the Way.
All these decks exemplify how (I feel) is best to maximize Bolas's Citadel: card velocity and cross support in other colors.
Card velocity: Chromatic Star, Faithless Looting, Preordain, Night's Whisper and their ilk are so important for the decks to function. They are also great at smoothing draws and allow you to double spell often, which I enjoy as it feels like there are more decisions in a game. Some (like the Star) are super important as they are colorless (giving access to cantrips to white for example) and have added bonus (like being sacrifice fodder). They won't do much without support, but provide enough cards and they become staples in a format.
Cross support: So (hopefully) you are considering the Citadel! Well alone it won't do much. But if you support artifact and spells deck in Izzet, then you probably have most of the pieces for it. Here is a quick list of what I deem interesting or essential support (essentially card velocity payoffs, artifact payoffs or sacrifice payoffs).
In multiplayer I also play extort cards as card velocity support (Syndic of Tithes, Basilica Screecher,...).
So there it is, a wall of text for a single card, but I've had such good experiences with it I wanted to share. Once again, my format is slower (multiplayer) and more high powered than most of the cubes here, but maybe you can make it work for you too!
Does anybody have experience with this? Looks like a very cool EtB-Support without being broken, and it also needs some work to be put in, but isn't very bad alone. It also looks a bit weird, which is why I ask you, Riptidians.
Mûmakils are so cool!
I actually think you've found a gem. Medium-powered (because of the high floor and because villain cannot get around that "they will come back eventually" like if it had a die clause instead of a leave the battlefield clause.)
Also the right color for blink ETB support. Only questions are:
1. Is your cube the right power level to support? You can't be too high.
2. Does your cube support blink? Many cool cards have ETB but the mechanic itself is a little bit narrow.
I actually think you've found a gem. Medium-powered (because of the high floor and because villain cannot get around that "they will come back eventually" like if it had a die clause instead of a leave the battlefield clause.)
Also the right color for blink ETB support. Only questions are:
1. Is your cube the right power level to support? You can't be too high.
2. Does your cube support blink? Many cool cards have ETB but the mechanic itself is a little bit narrow.