Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
The thing about Saga is that spending your mana on it is really solid if you actually have targets for Chapter 3. If you have just one other artifact, your first activation gives you a 2/2 for 
(that turns into a 3/3 on your next upkeep), and your second activation effectively gives you a 4/4 and gives your first token +1/+1.
Making two 4/4s for ~ is a pretty solid deal, even if you do have to do it over a bunch of turns.
(that turns into a 3/3 on your next upkeep), and your second activation effectively gives you a 4/4 and gives your first token +1/+1.Making two 4/4s for ~
is a pretty solid deal, even if you do have to do it over a bunch of turns.
I am surprised that no mention of synergy is discussed with Urza's Saga. This is the Riptide Lab right?
Synergy: It has 2 subtypes for cards that care about Delirium and such (Grim Flayer, Occult Epiphany, ...) and it conveniently bins itself after a couple of turns.
It also cares about artifacts (even if perfectly playable alone as landofMordor mentionned) and creates scaling tokens making it a great cross archetype card for popular themes.
It's a land to recur with forum favorites.
All of this, completely ignoring the tutor effect that can get cantrips, disruption, board presence, powerups or a build around.
Colorless: Being colorless and fitting into multiple archetypes, it's fun to see different decks optimize it differently. Maybe you care about cloning the tokens with Esika's Chariot. Maybe you recur it with Crucible of Worlds. Go big with other artifacts. Bounce it for value after making your second token. And so on!
Dynamic in draft: It rewards you for drafting around it and changing your pick orders to maximize it. I really enjoy cards that incentivize you stay on your toes during the drafting portion.
Complexity: This is a pretty big one. As mentioned, it's not obvious what can be tutored and there is a lot of text. All of this on a land is rough at first glance.
Tempo hit: When played early, this can backfire pretty badly, especially the slower and the higher average mana value your cube is. In cubes with leaner curves, it doesn't matter nearly as much and is a powerhouse. Speaking of tempo, this is a cool one for cubes with Standstill, supporting Blue tempo decks.
All in all, it's my experience that the benefits of being such a great glue card for multiple archetypes is a boon to most cubes, if you can stomach the complexity and cost ($).
Synergy: It has 2 subtypes for cards that care about Delirium and such (Grim Flayer, Occult Epiphany, ...) and it conveniently bins itself after a couple of turns.
It also cares about artifacts (even if perfectly playable alone as landofMordor mentionned) and creates scaling tokens making it a great cross archetype card for popular themes.
It's a land to recur with forum favorites.
All of this, completely ignoring the tutor effect that can get cantrips, disruption, board presence, powerups or a build around.
Colorless: Being colorless and fitting into multiple archetypes, it's fun to see different decks optimize it differently. Maybe you care about cloning the tokens with Esika's Chariot. Maybe you recur it with Crucible of Worlds. Go big with other artifacts. Bounce it for value after making your second token. And so on!
Dynamic in draft: It rewards you for drafting around it and changing your pick orders to maximize it. I really enjoy cards that incentivize you stay on your toes during the drafting portion.
Complexity: This is a pretty big one. As mentioned, it's not obvious what can be tutored and there is a lot of text. All of this on a land is rough at first glance.
Tempo hit: When played early, this can backfire pretty badly, especially the slower and the higher average mana value your cube is. In cubes with leaner curves, it doesn't matter nearly as much and is a powerhouse. Speaking of tempo, this is a cool one for cubes with Standstill, supporting Blue tempo decks.
All in all, it's my experience that the benefits of being such a great glue card for multiple archetypes is a boon to most cubes, if you can stomach the complexity and cost ($).
Urza's Saga is a fantastic card when you can exploit the various features, but YMMV with your cube composition. Low to the ground cubes or ones that feature some kind of artifact theme? Gold. Ones that are more midrange-y and/or value driven? Probably not so great.
I think that the playstyle compared to Modern or something like EDH is radically different. An early Saga in either of those formats will likely grab you something ala Mishra's Bauble or Jeweled Lotus which either put you even on cards or push you to multiple cards worth of advantage depending on what they're paired with. In cube an early Saga is alright to deploy, but you won't get to maximize value unless it's followed up with an artifact heavy curve out or a means of recursion via Wrenn and Six or Ramunap Excavator or Crucible of Worlds. Hell doing something as inoccuous as generating a Karnstruct and following that up with a Tireless Tracker + fetchland is pretty big game. I've played enough games against Urza, Lord High Artificer to know just how strong that token can be with just a little extra support and synergies to power it up.
Personally I think it's a fantastic card for cube. It just does so many little things and interacts with a large variety of cards that it presents itself as a versatile pick in a single card. I wouldn't feel bad running it in most decks, likely more a mid-late game drop than anything, but would be super excited to see it if I already had artifact synergies and meaningful targets to grab.
I think that the playstyle compared to Modern or something like EDH is radically different. An early Saga in either of those formats will likely grab you something ala Mishra's Bauble or Jeweled Lotus which either put you even on cards or push you to multiple cards worth of advantage depending on what they're paired with. In cube an early Saga is alright to deploy, but you won't get to maximize value unless it's followed up with an artifact heavy curve out or a means of recursion via Wrenn and Six or Ramunap Excavator or Crucible of Worlds. Hell doing something as inoccuous as generating a Karnstruct and following that up with a Tireless Tracker + fetchland is pretty big game. I've played enough games against Urza, Lord High Artificer to know just how strong that token can be with just a little extra support and synergies to power it up.
Personally I think it's a fantastic card for cube. It just does so many little things and interacts with a large variety of cards that it presents itself as a versatile pick in a single card. I wouldn't feel bad running it in most decks, likely more a mid-late game drop than anything, but would be super excited to see it if I already had artifact synergies and meaningful targets to grab.
When original Theros was being spoiled as an enchantment set, I wondered if we would get enchantment lands similar to the Mirrodin artifact lands. Of course we didn’t, but is anyone exploiting the enchantment type of Urza’s Saga?
Really interesting discussion, everyone!
I like many of the arguments back and forth and I enjoy playing with the card. I just make sure my players have plenty of options for targets before they get the land into their card pool.
This is possible. But in the floor scenario you never make two 4/4’s for+ mana if you have one artifact (let’s call it Bonesplitter just to give it a name for this example) on the battlefield before you play Urza’s Saga. You make two 3/3’s.
The first one will be a */* that counts itself and Bonesplitter. It has summoning sickness and can block the first round. Then it becomes your turn again, you untap, upkeep, draw and enter main. Then you tap three lands again and create another */* and Urza’s Saga dies and doesn’t find anything This one counts itself, the other Karnstruct and the Bonesplitter which gives you an army of two 3/3’s.
In another scenario that is not the floor scenario that Mordor is talking about, you could have artifacts in your deck to tutor. Thus making them 4/4’s for+ mana if you have drawn and paid for an artifact before playing Urza’s Saga and also have a or artifact in your deck. It’s certainly not impossible. But it’s also not the floor.
I am saying it costs+ mana because it actually does. Sometimes you will have untapped lands left over that you cannot use for anything (Example: Imagine having a hand full of 2-mana spell while you have 3 lands on the battlefield. Your last land is wasted.) It’s the same scenario as any other card in hand but we don’t feel the wasted mana so often on all those spells because we choose when we cast them. We do not have that luxury with Urza’s Saga since we are forced to tap the lands at the exact moment or lose the opportunity to get the value.
It also costs 1 mana on each turn after it has sacrificed itself because that mana could have been produced had it been Wastes. A counter argument could be to include Urza’s Saga as a spell which means it will ‘only’ costs you 1 mana each turn after it sacrificed itself until you are done playing a land each turn because you are out of lands in your hand (or graveyard if you have Crucible of Worlds)
I like many of the arguments back and forth and I enjoy playing with the card. I just make sure my players have plenty of options for targets before they get the land into their card pool.
The thing about Saga is that spending your mana on it is really solid if you actually have targets for Chapter 3. If you have just one other artifact, your first activation gives you a 2/2 for
Making two 4/4s for ~
This is possible. But in the floor scenario you never make two 4/4’s for
+ mana if you have one artifact (let’s call it Bonesplitter just to give it a name for this example) on the battlefield before you play Urza’s Saga. You make two 3/3’s.The first one will be a */* that counts itself and Bonesplitter. It has summoning sickness and can block the first round. Then it becomes your turn again, you untap, upkeep, draw and enter main. Then you tap three lands again and create another */* and Urza’s Saga dies and doesn’t find anything This one counts itself, the other Karnstruct and the Bonesplitter which gives you an army of two 3/3’s.
In another scenario that is not the floor scenario that Mordor is talking about, you could have artifacts in your deck to tutor. Thus making them 4/4’s for
+ mana if you have drawn and paid for an artifact before playing Urza’s Saga and also have a or artifact in your deck. It’s certainly not impossible. But it’s also not the floor.I am saying it costs
+ mana because it actually does. Sometimes you will have untapped lands left over that you cannot use for anything (Example: Imagine having a hand full of 2-mana spell while you have 3 lands on the battlefield. Your last land is wasted.) It’s the same scenario as any other card in hand but we don’t feel the wasted mana so often on all those spells because we choose when we cast them. We do not have that luxury with Urza’s Saga since we are forced to tap the lands at the exact moment or lose the opportunity to get the value.It also costs 1 mana on each turn after it has sacrificed itself because that mana could have been produced had it been Wastes. A counter argument could be to include Urza’s Saga as a spell which means it will ‘only’ costs you 1 mana each turn after it sacrificed itself until you are done playing a land each turn because you are out of lands in your hand (or graveyard if you have Crucible of Worlds)
Last edited:
That’s what I thought too back then. I remember MARO explaining to us later that they didn’t want to put another type on lands because they had learned their lesson. However now we have several more artifact lands (Drossforge Bridge) and an enchantment land (Urza’s Saga) so I guess they changed their mind. I think I just missed when they talked about it but I really, really like what they have done with the enchantment land. It makes perfect sense for it to be an Urza card. Is also makes perfect sense with its name since the set Urza’s Saga was our first ever enchantment set leading into Urza’s Legacy and Urza’s Destiny that completed our first enchantment block. I also really, really like that it creates Karnstructs for those who know their lore.
Here I am, spamming. I just had one last comment.
It does have two subtypes: Urza’s and Saga.
But delirium doesn’t care about that. It is looking for card types.
Supertypes: Legendary, Snow, Basic, Host etc.
Card Types: Artifact, Creature, Enchantment, Tribal etc.
Subtypes: Elf, Human, Equipment, Saga, Alara, Bolas, Lesson etc.
This is another reason why Urza’s Saga is such a brilliant design. It’s subtypes are not there to say the set name ‘Urza’s Saga’. It is there to say Urza’s because every Urza land has that subtype (Urza’s Mine, Urza’s Power Plant, Urza’s Tower, Urza’s Factory, Urza’s Saga) and it is there to say Saga because all sagas have that subtype (The History of Benalia, Showdown of the Skalds). Combined it says the name of the first enchantment set.
It does have two subtypes: Urza’s and Saga.
But delirium doesn’t care about that. It is looking for card types.
Supertypes: Legendary, Snow, Basic, Host etc.
Card Types: Artifact, Creature, Enchantment, Tribal etc.
Subtypes: Elf, Human, Equipment, Saga, Alara, Bolas, Lesson etc.
This is another reason why Urza’s Saga is such a brilliant design. It’s subtypes are not there to say the set name ‘Urza’s Saga’. It is there to say Urza’s because every Urza land has that subtype (Urza’s Mine, Urza’s Power Plant, Urza’s Tower, Urza’s Factory, Urza’s Saga) and it is there to say Saga because all sagas have that subtype (The History of Benalia, Showdown of the Skalds). Combined it says the name of the first enchantment set.
Urza's Saga was very easy to support and it added a lot to my cube, I recommend it.
It's also extremely strong, making two Karnstructs is no joke.
It's also extremely strong, making two Karnstructs is no joke.
Do you put it into one of your 23 or your 17?
One of the 17, but that's because I'm greedy not because it's the right play! It should only count as half a land, though it does bring enough value that it's not an issue.
I personally believe 24 spells and 16 lands is a better fit in my cube if the player is running a mono-colored deck or Guild/Colleges. If they're Shards/Khans then I believe 17 lands are required.
landofMordor
Administrator
Tbh, I don't really want to have any discussion after these replies:
The tone of your post comes across as patronizing and antagonistic. Your line of reasoning is semantic and literal, which makes me feel like you only read my post to gather ammo to shoot down my ideas, rather than meet me in good faith for a discussion. And these quotes in particular reinforce that idea, since these rhetorical questions, and the assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about, seem designed to insult.
That said, I recognize there might be some language interference between us, with the additional layers of trying to interpret each other's meanings in a text-based forum without the benefit of body language, and trying to determine whether a stranger is acting in good faith. I get those difficulties, and I'm sure I've not communicated perfectly myself. Any offense I gave was unintentional.
I'd like to give you benefit of the doubt, so I'll just say that rhetorical questions like I quoted are often insulting when read by native English speakers. Those questions imply that "I need to spell this out like I would for a child, because the other person is stupid". Another good way to avoid this is to frame your statements with a little bit of humility, where you say explicitly that you're willing to be wrong:
These are completely harmless ways to voice the same disagreement, except it builds trust between us and is less likely to offend. Again, I'm not assuming ill intent. I'm just pointing out that, if I read those posts from someone I knew to be a native speaker, I could only assume they were acting in an antisocial way with little regard for others.
Last edited:
@landofMordor
I don’t think I was talking down to you. That was not my intention. Can we move past those feelings? We Europeans are not spike tongued (not sure if that translates exactly as intended.) At least I don’t think we Danes are. Whenever I write on this forum I have to translate in my head.
Can we agree that the floor is not creating two tokens because there will be situations when the controller wants to spend their mana on more effective cards and is desperate for a quicker result because opponent is putting pressure?
Can we agree that the floor is not finding a target with the third chapter if the controller adds Urza’s Saga to a deck with no targets like you said you would?
I hope the above doesn’t hurt any feelings <3 I just want to discuss topics and not discuss different ways to write about those discussions.
I don’t think I was talking down to you. That was not my intention. Can we move past those feelings? We Europeans are not spike tongued (not sure if that translates exactly as intended.) At least I don’t think we Danes are. Whenever I write on this forum I have to translate in my head.
Can we agree that the floor is not creating two tokens because there will be situations when the controller wants to spend their mana on more effective cards and is desperate for a quicker result because opponent is putting pressure?
Can we agree that the floor is not finding a target with the third chapter if the controller adds Urza’s Saga to a deck with no targets like you said you would?
I hope the above doesn’t hurt any feelings <3 I just want to discuss topics and not discuss different ways to write about those discussions.
The floor is the opponent having an effect that says nonbasics ETB tapped and then casting a follow-up Armageddon.
landofMordor
Administrator
Sure thing
I get the difficulties of translation, as a mediocre “Spanglish” speaker myself! no hard feelings.I’ll agree that’s the floor of Urza’s Saga in the same way that the floor of Swords to Plowshares is exiling your own creature because killing the opponent’s won’t save you. In other words, I’ll generally deckbuild and play in order to optimize my expected value from my cards, which is why I didn’t consider the floor of playing Urza’s Saga and using only the first chapter. So I think we were using different metrics to measure the floor of a card.
Last edited:
If the controller can have better options than create two tokens, doesn't that mean creating two tokens is the floor?
the floor is the absolute minimum the card can provide versus what you expect to get from it. So if you fail to be able to create any tokens when you otherwise would have wanted to and miss out on searching, you're below the expected return on investment.
I don’t think so but I could be wrong. I like the debate but I worry people don’t like to discuss with me.
If they have better options from other cards (a an example: Thrashing Brontodon when opponent casts a game-winning Umezawa’s Jitte the following turn) then Urza’s Saga is only creating a single token that game.
This was just as example of something that can be better to do than activating the land both times. Activating the land twice would almost be game-losing.
Yes, in these instances a normal land would be better. However, the ceiling is so high that it is worth the risk.
I agree. I just wanted to talk about the theoretical floor by Mordor (great name, by the way.) May I withdraw from the talk now?
landofMordor
Administrator
of course! Thanks for the thought provoking conversation.
The floor for Saga is that you play it into a Blood Moon and then get really sad.
(For anyone who isn't already aware: Blood Moon turns Urza's Saga into an Enchantment Land - Mountain Saga with more counters on it than the number of chapters it has... which leads to it going to your graveyard as a state-based action — layers!)
(For anyone who isn't already aware: Blood Moon turns Urza's Saga into an Enchantment Land - Mountain Saga with more counters on it than the number of chapters it has... which leads to it going to your graveyard as a state-based action — layers!)