Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I ran Forsake the Worldly in the past, and even that wasn't worth maindecking.
I run Sundering Growth, but that also supports a token theme.
My drafters love Urza's Saga and so far it has played out extremely well in cube for us. I'm probably going to go up to three copies because I think it makes for a very lightweight way to incorporate artifact synergies into basically any deck.
My cube has a fairly large colorless section and a lot of it serves as a sort of utility backbone that most decks can leverage. There are just a lot of versatile and powerful options that are tempting to pick up during the draft because you'll usually play them however the rest of the draft goes. Some examples (chosen to exemplify widely playable utility cards, not all necessarily fetchable by Saga):
Trinkets:
Creatures/Equipment:
Ramp:
Interaction:
Combo Pieces:
Of course, these ideas have been extensively discussed at riptide by many people. And you see variations across many power-levels:
With sufficiently high incidental artifact density with all of these flexible playables (maybe combined with stuff like e.g. Tireless Tracker, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Sram's Experstise) decks that are not artifact-tribal per se can add a card like Marionette Master for free. You can choose to leverage the sub-theme or not during the draft without trainwrecking or being on-rails.
Three copies of Urza's Saga is really simple high power-level implementation of the same concept. It turns out that a lot of the widely playable utility artifacts and artifact creatures happen to have mana cost 0 or 1. Then just as in the Marionette Master example, basically any deck can adopt an artifact theme with extremely low cost. You're already happy to snag Saga targets during the draft. Then Saga combines these into a tutorable toolbox. And in turn, Saga makes tokens that reward you for having more random artifacts around. I especially like how light-weight this feels. You absolutely do not need to pivot to drafting all artifacts and a Saga package slots into an enormous number of game plans. It merely adds an extra dimension to certain cards both during drafting and during game play.
Some more narrowly-defined archetypes already play well with this style of subtheme. In Wildfire (for me it would be Balance) for instance, you'll likely play a very high density of artifacts even though you don't have any cards that key off artifacts explicitly. Those rocks give you extra mana that you can sink into Urza's Saga and power up your karnstructs.
And on top of this, you may or may not also include various artifact themes, whatever those may look like. Say, Welder, Urza, and KCI decks. In a different type of cube it might a Court Homonculus or Hardened Scales artifact aggro shell. These decks will happily play Saga but as a drafter, you don't need to be in a dedicated "archetype" for Saga to be relevant. So for me, triple Urza's Saga is an easy include to test out. I already run triple Wasteland and plenty of enchantment removal to interact, and maybe Magus of the Moon, Spreading Seas and stuff like that become relevant. It'll be a fun thing to try.
notable and similar artifact enabler for low power / rarity restricted cubes is the Bridge duals
landofMordor
Administrator
@dbs i can’t tell by your write up whether you intend Ballista and Chalice as Saga targets, but it can’t fetch anything that doesn’t have the exact mana cost 0 or C… EDIT I now see you make exactly this qualification! Ignore me lol
pedantics aside, 3 saga is super spicy and sounds like an excellent way to spread the power/fun to more decks! I’ve really enjoyed my lone Saga already.
pedantics aside, 3 saga is super spicy and sounds like an excellent way to spread the power/fun to more decks! I’ve really enjoyed my lone Saga already.
Would you mind sharing your 0 and 1 mana artifacts that you expect Urza’s Saga to target?
Losing a land drop is a massive tempo loss so they better be good
Losing a land drop is a massive tempo loss so they better be good
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I know you don't really like other people answering instead of the person you are quoting, but firstly, their list on Cube Cobra at least gives an idea (using the right filter), even though I see Urza's Saga is still a one-off in that list.Would you mind sharing your 0 and 1 mana artifacts that you expect Urza’s Saga to target?
Losing a land drop is a massive tempo loss so they better be good
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/xi7?f=t:artifact+(mana=0+or+mana=1)&view=spoiler
Secondly, I wanted to add to the question. Since you run a combo-oriented cube, I imagine you're including Saga mostly as a tutor for certain engine pieces and/or fast mana, is that right @dbs? I wonder if you're planning to up the number of targets now that you've decided to run three Saga's?
Thank you for acknowledging my wishes, @Onderzeeboot I actually mean it and I am not being sarcastic <3
I can see Saga be run as a combo tutor piece. However it will still cost a land drop so it will have to be late in the game. Late is a relative term and should be measured according to the cube speed.
Running Saga out early, will require some excellent 0 or 1 mana artifacts. I run it myself but I haven’t seen anyone play it yet which means they have not included it in a deck yet or not drawn it yet because we have played many tournaments since its release.
Looking at the link now
Edit: It looks like Mana Vault is the supreme target in the early and mid game. There is also Chrome Mox which could be fair, Lion’s Eye Diamond and some questionable targets like two Lotus Petals and a Skullclamp. I could see myself fetching a Skullclamp even though it would cost me a land drop.
I can see Saga be run as a combo tutor piece. However it will still cost a land drop so it will have to be late in the game. Late is a relative term and should be measured according to the cube speed.
Running Saga out early, will require some excellent 0 or 1 mana artifacts. I run it myself but I haven’t seen anyone play it yet which means they have not included it in a deck yet or not drawn it yet because we have played many tournaments since its release.
Looking at the link now
Edit: It looks like Mana Vault is the supreme target in the early and mid game. There is also Chrome Mox which could be fair, Lion’s Eye Diamond and some questionable targets like two Lotus Petals and a Skullclamp. I could see myself fetching a Skullclamp even though it would cost me a land drop.
Don’t forget that everyone has access to 2 of the original Moxen in dbs’s cube! So it’s not too risky to play early, as it replaces itself with another mana source.
With Hardened Scales in the cube, would
Be a decent target if you have more Sagas?
I know you play Arcbound Ravager, but not sure if it’s worth the slot.
With Hardened Scales in the cube, would
Be a decent target if you have more Sagas?
I know you play Arcbound Ravager, but not sure if it’s worth the slot.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Oh, right, I forgot about that! Yeah, that definitely makes Urza's Saga an easy include in any deck, maybe even without any other targets.
Huh, this is valuable feedback because these questions have not come up at all for me so far. It's good to think through. Losing the land has been not a big deal and actually even the quality of the tutor target has not been super important. This is my impression both in cube and constructed.
Checking the two decklists we've drafted with Saga, the (non-mox) targets in the first deck were:
So here the targets are all exceptionally strong. In the second decklist, the targets were two mox and Sensei's Top. The most fetched cards were Top followed by Foundry. Across the matches I saw with these decks, I think I saw a mox fetched one time, so it's not common but I can't rule out the land loss mitigation at least for my cube.
So to answer @Onderzeeboot's question, it's been a pure utility / construct maker without any combo application (so far). In my triple Saga test list I'm also looking at two spellbombs, Underworld Cookbook, and Hope of Ghirapur. Although, I started considering those cards before committing to the extra Sagas; part of the draw for me is how naturally they slot in.
So then the question is, how much does this depend on moxes and how much does it depend on a more compressed curve? @landofMordor and @Nanonox, I think both of you have drafted Saga and liked it in cube, what's your experience?
Checking the two decklists we've drafted with Saga, the (non-mox) targets in the first deck were:
So here the targets are all exceptionally strong. In the second decklist, the targets were two mox and Sensei's Top. The most fetched cards were Top followed by Foundry. Across the matches I saw with these decks, I think I saw a mox fetched one time, so it's not common but I can't rule out the land loss mitigation at least for my cube.
So to answer @Onderzeeboot's question, it's been a pure utility / construct maker without any combo application (so far). In my triple Saga test list I'm also looking at two spellbombs, Underworld Cookbook, and Hope of Ghirapur. Although, I started considering those cards before committing to the extra Sagas; part of the draw for me is how naturally they slot in.
So then the question is, how much does this depend on moxes and how much does it depend on a more compressed curve? @landofMordor and @Nanonox, I think both of you have drafted Saga and liked it in cube, what's your experience?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Underworld Cookbook with Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar and Ovalchase Daredevil is a strong anti-creature combo, but I don't know if you have anything else going on that can really elevate this combo to also segue into something else.
landofMordor
Administrator
I've found Saga to be exceptionally powerful. I will maindeck it even with 0 fetchable artifacts, since it's a 2-for-1 on card advantage in the first place (2 creatures in exchange for the tempo of one land drop and the future loss of that land). I usually only cut 0.25-0.5 of a land for it, since I consider it to be "a lotus petal followed by two 2-mana bears with suspend 1 and 2 respectively", so I haven't run into significant mana screw as a result of it dying to its own trigger. And ofc, if you *can* fetch something on Chapter III, it turns into a 3-for-1 which is just bonkers good.
That said, of the tutor targets, Shadowspear and Nihil/Aether/Pyrite Spellbombs are situationally game-winning, while the others you mention above are excellent in a wider variety of game states. No combo pieces necessary IMO.
That said, of the tutor targets, Shadowspear and Nihil/Aether/Pyrite Spellbombs are situationally game-winning, while the others you mention above are excellent in a wider variety of game states. No combo pieces necessary IMO.
In best case scenario, above is true.
It’s a Lotus Petal but it only adds and not one mana of any color. It also has a narrow window to be used in (Only the turn it enters the battlefield and until your next untap step.) And if you want a 1/1 that later becomes a 2/2 and you want a 2/2 you will have to spend 2 mana and 2 mana on the exact following turns which is 4 mana for two 2/2’s.
From then on it will cost you 1 mana each turn because of your decisions. That one mana could be spend on a lot of things but you’re done curving because you are always behind.
It’s a Lotus Petal but it only adds
and not one mana of any color. It also has a narrow window to be used in (Only the turn it enters the battlefield and until your next untap step.) And if you want a 1/1 that later becomes a 2/2 and you want a 2/2 you will have to spend 2 mana and 2 mana on the exact following turns which is 4 mana for two 2/2’s.From then on it will cost you 1 mana each turn because of your decisions. That one mana could be spend on a lot of things but you’re done curving because you are always behind.
I'm guessing that the play pattern to worry about as the power level gets lower is this: first you use Saga as a land drop to cast your 3 or 4 drop. Then the next two turns you make 2 creatures with power between 3 and 5. So you might have to worry about taxing removal suites and gumming up the ground - especially since in many riptidean cubes it's not that hard to have some incidental artifacts that make the constructs bigger. But I'm curious to hear testing experiences from slower environments.
This matches my intuition, but your post does a really nice job laying out the most barebones play pattern!
Don’t forget that everyone has access to 2 of the original Moxen in dbs’s cube! So it’s not too risky to play early, as it replaces itself with another mana source.
With Hardened Scales in the cube, would
Be a decent target if you have more Sagas?
I know you play Arcbound Ravager, but not sure if it’s worth the slot.
Ozolith is definitely a sweet one, but I'm pretty sure I'll be cutting Hardened Scales as part of my attempt to clean up / streamline my cube. I'll leave scales in for the 1-3 in person drafts just in case it gets a moment to shine, and I can imagine this package being super cool in a slightly different environment. A cool suggestion though!
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landofMordor
Administrator
Weird, because I thought of this as the floor scenario, with the sole assumption that its owner wants to maximize the value of their game pieces.
If your format is more interested in a colorless land that stays alive until turns 7-8-9-and-up, then I agree you should stay the heck away from Saga... and to an extent, I even agree with your hyperbolic assessment that Saga means you stop curving out. But since it gets you 3 game objects for 4 mana and a single card (less the mana Saga itself makes and any discount you get on the tutor), it means you switch from curve-out mode into card-advantage mode. I typically play Saga as my 3rd or 4th land, then spend the next turn going "removal+Karnstruct" or "threat+Karnstruct", filling holes in my curve. And then after Saga self-destructs, I use my mana to cast the things I would have cast, had I not been making tokens. So even though I agree that Urza's Saga means a temporary loss of tempo, I think it more than makes up for that in value later on, especially in low-curving formats.
No, no the floor is not creating any 2/2 artifact creature tokens because you simply do not have the mana to spare in those two specific turns with Urza's Saga. You do see how creating no 2/2's are worse than creating two 2/2's, right?
Also you said you would run it even WITHOUT ANY targets = 0 targets. Hence the comment I made above where it is clearly not a 3-for-1 but a 2-for-1 where the two cards you get are small creatures at the cost of a land drop. You understand? You can't find any artifact in your deck if you have decided to put the Saga into your deck with no targets, like you said.
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I have cut your comments in two to make sure we can keep it two seperate discussions. The first comment was about you suggesting that you can get 3-for-1 when you have no artifacts in your deck and with your misunderstanding of 'floor' which is certainly not when you get several mini creatures.
Here is for the second half of your comment.
It's not a 'temporary' loss of tempo. It is a long-term loss of tempo. As in every turn you lose 1 mana. What you gain is a short burst of value. You get two small creatures that you can attack or block with. They will cost you 1 mana each turn in upkeep cost. By the end of the game you could have payed anything from 7 to 15 mana on getting those two tokens.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That very much depends on the curve of your cube. landofMordor has a very low average mana value, which means that their decks can function on lower mana counts. Losing a land is thus less problematic (or even unproblematic). Also, importantly, it means you can create a token with the Saga and still have some interaction in your hand that you can play with the 1 or 2 mana you have left over after activating Urza's Saga. In such an environment, while the floor is still no karnstructs and a land lost, it is not a realistic floor. I reckon that in slower cubes such as mine, the floor is much worse for two reasons. One, the interaction is more expensive, and sometimes you need to react to the board, meaning you have to cast a spell and don't have the mana to activate Urza's Saga. Two, there are multiple decks that do want to ramp to 6 or 7 (or even 9) mana, and putting yourself down a land is a losing proposition. In such an environment, you would never run the Urza's Saga without any targets in a significant portion of the draft decks.
When you are buying into both constructs, that's actually "6" mana spent, because you have to tap Saga too and therefore lose out on the ability to use its mana ability. If you want both constructs, you cannot play it on turn 1 unless you have fast mana or else you lose out on at least on construct. Playing it turn 2 basically writes off T3 and 4 if you want both constructs, barring a 1 mana spell turn 4. For 2 bears that only stay bears if both are alive.... htat seems very lacking. As such, it's basically a dead land drop for at least 2 turns, if you plan on actually spending some time developing your board first.
If it works in high powered formats, more power to it, but I doubt it's in decks with 0 artifacts and I don't see it working in lower powered formats for reasons Onder mentions (besides the fact that lower powered formats often also have fewer good targets for chapter 3).
I dislike it in general for how messy of a card it is and how it's temporary without giving the player the agency to decide when it becomes temporary (unlike, for example, a panorama). I especially dislike the fact that it trips up some people at least once on artifacts that cost, , etc.
If it works in high powered formats, more power to it, but I doubt it's in decks with 0 artifacts and I don't see it working in lower powered formats for reasons Onder mentions (besides the fact that lower powered formats often also have fewer good targets for chapter 3).
I dislike it in general for how messy of a card it is and how it's temporary without giving the player the agency to decide when it becomes temporary (unlike, for example, a panorama). I especially dislike the fact that it trips up some people at least once on artifacts that cost
, , etc.Yeah, the thing about Saga is that the decks that it has done really well in (in Modern at least) are either artifact decks where it's both a good tutor and a way to fart out big tokens for the long game (Hammertime and Lantern Control come to mind), and Amulet Titan... which has more mana than God and happens to revolve around a CMC 1 artifact and an absurdly strong land tutor anyway. I think it saw some initial play in everything (because Modern decks actually tend to run a surprising number of cheap artifacts), but those are the decks where it actually has a home.
...
As a side note, I've never really been entirely on board with the old "tap abilities on lands secretly cost +1 mana" argument, because I feel like it misses a bit of the nuance of the situation. It's like how Burn players point at Lightning Bolt and go "using Bolt to remove a creature or planeswalker sucks, because you're effectively giving your opponent +3 life"... which misses out on why most people jam The Almighty Bolt into their deck, which is exactly because of that flexibility. That's why Castle Ardenvale "costing" for a 1/1 isn't actually an issue, even though that's a miserably poor rate for a weenie — you aren't going to be using the Castle to make a little buddy unless you don't have a use for the mana you'd get out of tapping the Castle.
That said, I think that criticism is more valid when it comes to Saga, since it's not something you can just drop onto the battlefield and profit from once you've run out of gas, due to how narrow the timing is. It's just that, unlike a lot of lands with activated abilities, Saga has a really strong one.
...
As a side note, I've never really been entirely on board with the old "tap abilities on lands secretly cost +1 mana" argument, because I feel like it misses a bit of the nuance of the situation. It's like how Burn players point at Lightning Bolt and go "using Bolt to remove a creature or planeswalker sucks, because you're effectively giving your opponent +3 life"... which misses out on why most people jam The Almighty Bolt into their deck, which is exactly because of that flexibility. That's why Castle Ardenvale "costing"
for a 1/1 isn't actually an issue, even though that's a miserably poor rate for a weenie — you aren't going to be using the Castle to make a little buddy unless you don't have a use for the mana you'd get out of tapping the Castle.That said, I think that criticism is more valid when it comes to Saga, since it's not something you can just drop onto the battlefield and profit from once you've run out of gas, due to how narrow the timing is. It's just that, unlike a lot of lands with activated abilities, Saga has a really strong one.