Slovakattack's first cube attempt (Legacy-Lite?)

[GiftsForgiven]

Hi guys! I kinda dropped off the map for about three weeks, mostly due to my computer breaking, and my moving cross-country. Since I was last around, my idea for a cube has changed dramatically. My current focus is trying to make a cube that's like 'Legacy-Lite.' Basically, taking a lot of popular archetypes and slowing them down a bit so that 'fair' decks have more of a chance.

Here is a link to the current iteration of my Cube.

As stated above, the power level is looking for being close to full-blown legacy cube, but not quite there, with some nerfs in the form of removing cards too-fast cards like Rofellos and Reanimate. Currently, the archetype breakdown theoretically looks something like this:

U/W: Blink Abuse.
U/R: Spells Matter
U/B: Reanimator/Self mill
U/G: 'top of deck matters' (deck manipulation + Oracle of Mul-Daya/Courser/etc. to abuse land drops)
G/R: Hyper-ramp
G/B: 'dredge-style' value/ rec-sur pod
Various token possibilities.
Some Eldrazi
Artifacts

Note that I am attempting a ULD with this cube, and will post that list in time.

I think this version is much tighter than the previous version. Certainly a step in the right direction. Let me know what you guys think! Any and all critique is welcome!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I did a draft, and these are the things I noticed at a glance:

• There is a huge gap in power level between things like Wurmcoil Engine and Blisterpod. With so many certified bombs, it's hard to see why anyone would play these marginal cards. I mean, I had already picked up the Engine, Grave Titan and Consecrated Sphinx, and passed a Dragonlord Silumgar, when I saw a Cyclone Sire in a pack. One of these curve toppers is not like the others! . Now personally I'm not a fan of unabashedly powerful cards like the Swords of X & Y, Wurmcoil Engine, Recurring Nightmare, and others, but if you want to create that Legacy feel I can understand why you want to cube them. Thing is, cards like that set the bar for how good other cards need to be to be worthy of deck inclusion, and there are a lot of cards that are simply not good enough to pass muster.
• There didn't seem to be enough fixing. I counldn't cobble together a good mana base, and when I checked after the draft I saw there are only four fixing lands per color pair in a pretty large cube.
• Your cube is very large. This means that only a (relatively small) portion of your cube is drafted each session, which in turn means that archetypes will not always be present. This is not necessarily a bad thing, just something to keep in mind. If you want to have certain Legacy archetypes show up each draft, it's a good idea to cut the chaff and make your cube a lot smaller.
• There is a glut of high cmc cards but a dearth of low cmc cards. Think about how many good one drops a good aggro deck needs, now count the number of white one drops. I would be happy to end up with six one drops, so I can guarantee action from turn one, yet there are only four one drops in white. In a (currently) 500 card cube! That means an average of 2-3 white one drops will be in each draft. Not nearly enough to support even one aggro deck, let alone multiples, and one of these one drops is a card I don't even want in my aggro deck (Serra Ascendant). Conversely, a more controlling deck needs only 2-4 curve toppers at 5+ mana, yet black alone already runs nine! 6+ cmc cards. I do believe it is currently impossible to draft a good aggro deck in your proposed cube and you heavily need to turn around the ratio of low cmc vs high cmc cards to make aggro a possibility. Another thing to keep in mind here is that a successful aggro deck very much needs a critical mass of low cmc threats to succeed, whereas a midrange or control deck can pretty much cobble together a deck with any number of different cards. In other words, aggro needs to be over-represented in the cards to be a draftable archetype.

Hope that train of thought helped a bit!

 

[sigh]

I've seen only good things out of lowering the CMC, as Boot talks about above. Pushing some of your 5, 6, and 7 drops into 1, 2, and 3 drops will make games more interactive and sequence-y, and actually prove just as useful to fair decks as to what passes for unfair.
Just a quick run down of where you stand, I looked at a quick cross section of average CMC's, less lands (only spells considered)
Project 2.0: 3.794
Sigh, A Cube (that's me ): 3.063
Sharzad (safra's cube): 2.638

I've put a lot of work dragging mine down, and still consider it on the high side, as evidenced by comparing to Safra's . Speed is a lot of personal preference, and I'm very happy with mine. I think a big thing will just to be wailing away at some tests, seeing what works, whats seeming really clunky, and working in from there. Some specific suggestions for cuts, that can become low drops or whatever else:


One card I'm noticing in particular: sneak attack. Are you trying to support that with the likes of Progenitus and Emrakul? If so, there's a lot of tough creature support going into that one card. Either a boost of the sneak attack count, a show and tell, or maybe trim down on that archetype a little. Sneak attack is still perfectly fine with the likes of woodfall primus, siege-gang commander, avenger of zendikar, kokusho, the evening star, and so on, and actually could be a cool, techy synergy with Pod if you focus it like that. Sneak in Siege-gang, sac to pod, get Primeval titan. value.

You've got a very well put together first draft! I can't wait to see how preliminary testing goes, and how it develops from here!

 

[GiftsForgiven]

Awesome feedback guys, thanks! I'm going to work on trimming the cube down, and removing a lot of the fluff + overbearing cards. One of the things I'm having a real hard time with is support for a possible artifact archetype. I'm trying to figure out how to support it without doing the cycle of signets, as I feel they are too strong. Additionally, I'm not really sure how many artifacts I would need to properly support it.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I think you already run a bunch of good alternatives to the Signets.

PS As an aside, it's a good idea to put the link to your current cube project in your signature, so people can always access you cube without having to scroll to the top of this thread!

Anyway, colorless mana rocks! Prismatic Lens, Sphere of the Suns and Thought Vessel are good. I like Coldsteel Heart, but it has some memory issues. The Talismans are great too! Two more options:



I'ld say Kirblinx's cube is a good starting point if you want to explore an artifact theme. It supports it really well!

 

[sigh]

Yeah I'd advise against signets if possible. You already have a boatload of 2 mana rocks, with all the myr included! The artifacty themes that have worked really well for me (and others 'round here) is

These three enable artifacts as a thing, without needing a heavy investment into artifacts! Tezzeret works with just a few in the board, same with daretti, and they both self-dig to find them. Grand architect actually works perfectly fine in a creature-based U deck, and has added mana-ramp bonuses that tie into artifacts.

For reference about investment my artifact section is only 39 total, including the godweapons and colored artifact creatures (moltensteel dragon etc). That's less than 10%, and still all my artifact themes see plenty of play. Your cube is at 62, or 11.5%. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but there might be room for trimming there.

You could probably cut all five 2mana-myr and probably pristine talisman? and your artifact section wouldn't be hurting. kuldotha forgemaster is also an anchor card that's probably more of a trap in cube unless you reaaaally want some sort of combo thing happening.

How many people do you anticipate drafting with? Even with a full 8 people, 405 or 450 can provide a lot of space for playing around. Is 540 a final goal, or just what you settled on? Is there a lower goal you'd be willing to cut towards?

 

[GiftsForgiven]

I have an average of 6-8 people to draft with, normally. I'm thinking of cutting it down to 450 at the moment.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I have an average of 6-8 people to draft with, normally. I'm thinking of cutting it down to 450 at the moment.

That's where I'm at at the moment, and I like it better than the 360 I was at before. I usually have the same amount of drafters, and 450 is large enough to keep the card pool fresh, without diluting strategies too much (especially if you're willing to break singleton). Sometimes I do a 4 people Silent Auction, which is the sweetest limited format ever, even though it take significantly longer than a regular 8 player draft, and 450 isn't a problem there because you have more agency over what cards you acquire.

 

[GiftsForgiven]

I've done a lot of trimming- black is close-ish to where I want it to be, specifically.

One card I'm noticing in particular: sneak attack. Are you trying to support that with the likes of Progenitus and Emrakul? If so, there's a lot of tough creature support going into that one card. Either a boost of the sneak attack count, a show and tell, or maybe trim down on that archetype a little. Sneak attack is still perfectly fine with the likes of woodfall primus, siege-gang commander, avenger of zendikar, kokusho, the evening star, and so on, and actually could be a cool, techy synergy with Pod if you focus it like that. Sneak in Siege-gang, sac to pod, get Primeval titan. value.

Do you (or anyone) have any suggestions on how to support the Sneak Archetype without actually including sneak? The same thing goes for Tinker- I'd like to do the 'cheat big ol fatties' into play thing, but not quite that early. Is it possible for the tinker archetype to work without blightsteel/inkwell?

A note on a few of the cards that may seem weird:

I'm a huge fan of [[pyromancer's goggles]]. I think it's an awesome card, but I don't have a whole lot of ideas on how to support it properly. Any suggestions would be helpful!

I think [[Arjun, the shifting flame]] is hilarious and strong. I'm interested to see what madness drafters manage to pull off with it... not quite interested in cutting it yet.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Do you (or anyone) have any suggestions on how to support the Sneak Archetype without actually including sneak? The same thing goes for Tinker- I'd like to do the 'cheat big ol fatties' into play thing, but not quite that early. Is it possible for the tinker archetype to work without blightsteel/inkwell?

A note on a few of the cards that may seem weird:

I'm a huge fan of [[pyromancer's goggles]]. I think it's an awesome card, but I don't have a whole lot of ideas on how to support it properly. Any suggestions would be helpful!

I'ld say Kirblinx's cube is a good starting point if you want to explore an artifact theme. It supports it really well!

Like I said, Kirblinx's cube is an excellent starting point. He actually runs Tinker, and it so happens that I recently drafted a Tinker into Goggles deck in his cube

Sneak Attack is also probably fine, it's just a card that you don't necessarily have to support explicitly with giant fatties, like Emrakul, to cheat into play that wouldn't see play in other decks. There are plenty of targets that are exciting in normal decks, or other 'cheat into play' decks like Birthing Pod or Reanimator; Overseer of the Damned, Soul of Shandalar, and Primeval Titan (the fairest Titan in limited formats) come to mind.

I don't know if this was explicitly asked yet, but are you willing to break singleton? Birthing Pod, for example, is a card that is super exciting to draft and play in multiples. Because you can actually expect to draw it regularly if you have two or three, it changes the dynamic of the draft and the games. It would mean you get a lot closer to the Legacy feel you desire, because your limited decks will be more consistent and feel more like a constructed deck if they can expect to draw their central piece more often.

Just think about which archetypes you want to represent in your cube, and I'm sure you can find other exciting cards to double up on. Young Pyromancer, Steel Overseer, and Dark Ritual could all be viable candidates, for example.

 

[GiftsForgiven]

I'm willing to break singleton. Well, I'm willing to do anything that makes the experience better for the players, and breaking singleton is just a stepping stone to having an awesome experience, imo

I'm very interested in doubling up on certain cards. Currently looking at Mind stone, Peezy, birthing pod, and a couple of others to double up on.

 

[Alphez]

Hi there!

I drafted your cube a couple times and I mostly agree with the suggestions given by the other guys, particularly:

- average CMC is a tad too high. This should be your #1 priority at the moment, IMO
- 450 is better than 500+ cards
- more homogenous power level
- breaking singleton helps
- you need to encourage aggro a bit more. This is not easy when the power level is very high, because people are naturally attracted to flashier things. Having some more 1-drops would definitely help, though!

A couple more things I'd suggest:

- since you're allowing your players to do broken things, I think it would be nice to have a Death and Taxes/Hatebears archetype to keep things in check. Cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Aven Mindcensor, Hushwing Gryff & co. would help keep things fair while making white aggro a bit more appealing.

- I think you should have more mana ramp in green. It's an integral element to the colour's identity and would make some of your fatties more playable. For example, I once drafted Atarka but ended up leaving it out because I couldn't realistically hope to cast it.

- you are probably trying to support too many archetypes. If you scale down your cube's size, you might need to do the same archetype-wise. This way, every archetype would receive adequate support. The tricky part then becomes finding cards that work in different archetypes, but if you succeed in this the drafting experience gets infinitely better.

- I think you have way too many multicolour cards. Cards like Lingering Souls, Court Hussar, Gavony Township, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and their ilk are not formally multicoloured, but they functionally are. This brings your gold count to ~72 (I could be slightly off, I counted very quickly). This number doesn't include manlands. This is a matter of taste, like pretty much anything in Cube, but I think that having too many gold cards limits your players' choices.

All this said, I think your Cube is very fun! It is definitely a good starting point, but I am sure it will get even better with some adjustments

 

[sigh]

I'm pretty much in line with everything Alphez is saying in his additional suggestions. Hatebears is the way to go in higher powered formats when it comes to white aggro, vryn wingmare being on the wunder team listed in his post. And as hard as it is, cutting archetypes will probably need to be a necessity. The trick will be trying to layer things up. If you leave out some of your biggest, most poisonous fatties, the remainder will be good as ramp targets, pod top-end, sneak fuel (if you leave that in), and reanimator. Just one example.

On the note of the sneak archetype, I think the perfect analogue to the "cheaty" is feldon of the third path, which I see you already have. You've also got faithless looting, but one more that's liked around here is tormenting voice. This also helps it tie into other reanimation strategies you might have, and with Daretti.

First thing to do to help your curve is manually fiddle with it, this will help the numbers look better. comet storm is not a seven drop usually, and quarantine field isn't an 8 drop or whatever it defaults to. As examples. With that out of the way, my primary method for cutting curve initially was to take a thing at every CMC and drop it one. Mystic Confluence -> Cryptic Command, hidden dragonslayer -> mardu woereaper, etc.

Is there a reason your blue section is so much smaller than your others? (Also, Upheaval = #cry)

It's looking a lot smoother and consistent already! I think this smaller size will treat you a lot better .

 

[GiftsForgiven]

Is there a reason your blue section is so much smaller than your others? (Also, Upheaval = #cry)

It's been a bit of slow going for me, as I couldn't get much work done on it yesterday. I've basically got black cleaned up a fair bit, but I do need to work on the other colors.

If you could pick one archetype to drop from the cube, what would it be? (this is a question for everyone, not just Sigh!)

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Not really a theme, but there's still a few cards that only reward you if you jump through some really convoluted hoops, and give the impression you support themes that aren't well supported in reality: Serra Ascendant (convoluted, and suggests lifegain as a theme), Hidetsugu's Second Rite (hard to set up and kinda "oh, you got me" if it works), Nissa's Renewal (ramp from 6 to 9 seems a bit overkill), Deranged Assistant (suggests a graveyard matters theme in blue).

 

[Alphez]

Other eminently cuttable (is this even an actual word?) things, in my opinion:

Mirran Crusader (honestly, this is just because I shiver at the idea of this wearing a Sword)
Knight of the White Orchid and Kor Cartographer (I'd rather limit this effect to green: that colour is already a Cube's Cinderella more often than not... don't strip it of its signature abilities)
Abzan Falconer (I think it's the only reward you run for having +1/+1 counters... either you run some more, or you cut this one)
Coralhelm Commander (only 2 other Merfolk in the entire cube!)
Splinter Twin (you have no combo pieces and the card itself is kinda bad... it's a trap!)
Craterhoof Behemoth (I mean, it could stay if you better populate the lower side of your green mana curve. Where are my mana dorks?)

I think you should choose a theme between artifacts and Eldrazi and let go of the other. In one of my test drafts I picked a P1P1 Tezzeret and then proceeded to find only, like, 3 artifact creatures in the whole draft. Most of your other artifacts are mana rocks, which are quite yummy for any control player, and amazing equipments that are yummy for just about everybody in the draft, so you are quite unlikely to get many of those. The whole experience has been a bit frustrating; the only way I can imagine this improving is by making a choice between the 2 colourless themes you have. If you decide to keep the artifacts theme, I'd consider cutting Dack Fayden. I think it's too brutal to handle.

One final thing, regarding your mana costs again. You say that you aim at creating a legacy-lite feeling, but... just think about the typical mana curves of that format and compare it with what you have. Of course you cannot reach that level, but I think that reducing your CMCs will help you a lot in reaching your stated goal.

 

[sigh]

Drafted a deck today, came away with Naya beats, and the curve problems were definitely showing with the ramp side of life. Where the mana elves at? Where the birds? For a legacy-type power level, even slightly slowed down you are gonna want that ramp to be available right away. nest invader, awakening zone, overgrown battlement are all options for dorks. And there are definitely some cards that are pretty gross compared to some others. Armageddon style cards are right up there, along with one card stabilizers/hard-to-remove wincons. Anyway, here's the deck:

This is Sigh - Naya Ramp from CubeTutor.com

EDIT: Still recommend you manually fiddle with cards CMC's on CT, because right now green sun's zenith is up there at CMC6, when the wunder combo is it at x=0 grabbing the dryad arbor.

 

[GiftsForgiven]

Drafted a deck today, came away with Naya beats, and the curve problems were definitely showing with the ramp side of life. Where the mana elves at? Where the birds?

Thanks for taking another look at it! I'm been smoothing out my list over the last few days, but it's tough since I've been pretty busy. I haven't actually smoothed out green or red yet; I still have to work on those colors. I expect to add BoP, the Sol elf, boreal druid, and a few others to the list when that happens. I actually went and tweaked the CMCs of the cards earlier today; I must have missed the GSZ.

 

[GiftsForgiven]

I think you should choose a theme between artifacts and Eldrazi and let go of the other. In one of my test drafts I picked a P1P1 Tezzeret and then proceeded to find only, like, 3 artifact creatures in the whole draft. Most of your other artifacts are mana rocks, which are quite yummy for any control player, and amazing equipments that are yummy for just about everybody in the draft, so you are quite unlikely to get many of those. The whole experience has been a bit frustrating; the only way I can imagine this improving is by making a choice between the 2 colourless themes you have. If you decide to keep the artifacts theme, I'd consider cutting Dack Fayden. I think it's too brutal to handle.

I've done a lot of work tidying up the cube. It's not quite there yet, but it's looking a bit better. I'm still grappling with the equipment, and the fact that I'd really like to keep both the artifact and Eldrazi subthemes if possible. I may add a second Eldrazi Temple to the draft to help give incentive to work with it, we'll see.

Aside from that, any further suggestions? Do any particular cards just feel wildly oppressive? (maybe the armageddon/ravages o war?) Do any just feel dumb and bad?

Edit: I'm also looking to cut a few black cards to better even out the color pie...

 

[Onderzeeboot]

This front page article by CML may be two years old, but it still holds. I wouldn't say it's complete, there are certainly oppressive cards, like the Swords of X & Y, that aren't in his list, but everything in there is oppressive, and you're still running his number 2 and 3. Unless you are aiming for a very powerful cube, those would be great cuts.

 

[GiftsForgiven]

This front page article by CML may be two years old, but it still holds. I wouldn't say it's complete, there are certainly oppressive cards, like the Swords of X & Y, that aren't in his list, but everything in there is oppressive, and you're still running his number 2 and 3. Unless you are aiming for a very powerful cube, those would be great cuts.

On the subject of the swords, one of the issues I'm having is trying to find a balance between giving proper encouragement for an equipment theme, and making them insane. On one hand, the swords are verifiablely (is that a word?) nuts. On the other... there's really no other non-busted equipment that would actually make someone pleased to play the archetype in the environment that I have.

Recurring nightmare is a pet card of mine. I love it in Legacy cube draft, but perhaps it is indeed too powerful. Are they any other cuts that you'd suggest for black, or anywhere else?

Also, I'm currently breaking singleton on:

Perilous Myr
Carrion Feeder
Mind Stone
Ponder
Preordain
Magma Jet

I'm also considering breaking singleton on either Abbot or Young Pyromancer, but I'm not sure which would be better to promote aggro.

Edit: Recurring nightmare cut for soul exchange

 

[GiftsForgiven]

Update: As Alphez said, I'm having a bit of a rough time supporting both Eldrazi and Artifacts, as the Eldrazi need to colorless mana rocks too badly. Considering changing my land base to accommodate, replacing the manlands with filter lands. Also considering adding a cycle of temples for futher fixing. So it would be:

Shocks -> Fetches -> Painlands -> Filterlands, with the possibility of adding on Temples as well. Would 5 cycles of dual color fixing be too much?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Shocks -> Fetches -> Painlands -> Filterlands, with the possibility of adding on Temples as well. Would 5 cycles of dual color fixing be too much?

Definitely not, in my experience. I run 9 per guild with 5 supported guilds plus 10 trilands that you get when you draft the corresponding three color card, so 55/450.

 

[Alphez]

You know, I find a lot of resemblance between your Cube and mine when it was in its infancy (which was a few short months ago, actually). I also wanted to support a lot of super cool archetypes and make a Cube that resembled a non-rotating format (even though I had Modern's power level in mind rather than Legacy's). Because of this, I will tell you what I did after receiving the first, precious feedbacks on these forums.

At the time, my Cube was just an Excel spreadsheet and a CubeTutor list. It didn't physically exist yet. A number of issues had been already identified and I knew I had to solve them before I could be satisfied with my list. So I just decided to restart from scratch, armed with the insights I collected on here: I thought it would be better to do it then, rather than sleeve up a list whose flaws I already knew.

I started from the numbers. I first decided how many cards I wanted in my Cube (the magic number was 405 for me) and then I focused on what archetypes to include. I was suggested to pick 6-7 archetypes and so I did (in retrospect, I can confirm that it is a good amount: less would make my list stale, more would make it unfocused). This was the most time-consuming part, for me: I wanted my archetypes to have a certain degree of overlap, so that I could choose cards with broad applications. At the same time, I wanted to make sure that my archetypes included both aggro and control strategies. I also made sure that those archetypes allowed me to give at least a couple of deck options to every colour pair (I support all 10 colour pairs, but that's not compulsory). Another important thing to consider at this stage is the power level your archetypes have, compared to each other. For example, you can't have a Tinker deck and a Kithkin tribal deck in the same Cube and expect the Kithkins to be competitive.

Once I was done with this, I decided how big each colour section would be and how many gold, colourless and land cards I would have. For each of those sections, I decided how many cards would be creatures and how many would be noncreature spells. Then I decided how many of those cards would be 1-drops, 2-drops, and so on. Each colour has different needs, based on what you want them to do. I think it's crucial to decide your mana curve before you start choosing the actual cards to include. We are all partial to some cards, maybe because we once built a super sweet draft deck with them, or because they remind us of a standard format of yore that we particularly enjoyed. Having a rigid (or semi-rigid) grid helps to avoid such traps and keep on the right tracks.

The final step is, of course, compiling your Cube list. At last!

This approach will not give you the perfect Cube, of course. In my case, for example, some colours were a bit unbalanced power-wise and some archetypes were more effective than others. Still, the list felt much more coherent than my previous one. Even the first few drafts were quite enjoyable. There will always be room for improvement, but the foundations felt very stable from the get go.

I am telling you this because I think you are trying to patch your list without a systematic approach. Without looking at the bigger picture, I'd say. I know it might be annoying to do this, but I think it would be the best course of action in order to make your drafting experience more enjoyable from the very beginning.

Or maybe not. If this approach doesn't resonate with you, just go ahead and explore the way you are doing. This is a game, after all, and only you and your playgroup can decide what is right for you. Whatever brings you the most enjoyment is the best path
Sorry for the long post!

 

[sigh]

Alphez's post is basically a sweet step-by-step through the design skeleton process. What the skeleton enables is an external handbrake on overloading in spots, gives you a set of guidelines right from the start. This helps with paralysis and helps cuts and inclusions be more independent from each other. It looks like you've gotten a lot of good work into hammering out some changes, so it's possible you want to overlay some of these concepts on your existing cube. Step back, develop an archetype list in a vacuum, see if your cards seem like they support what you want. We all are here to help think that through too, of course.

It is important, still, to analyze cards by themselves. These are the puzzle pieces, and you need to figure out which ones you want. Some things you've brought up:
Swords: stronk. Very Stronk. Options for powerful equips:
batterskull
empyrial plate
grafted wargear
bonesplitter

Your reanimator package has to be careful that it doesn't get too slow. slowing it down is fine, just need to balance against power levels that exist.

For aggro, probably the Abbot. Pyro is more for the grindier spells decks. Both are excellent though.