General Supporting aggro without making it poisonous

[Nemo]

I love the thoughtful content on this site, which I discovered just in the past couple of days.

My cube project has plenty of issues, but how to properly integrate interesting aggro is the one I'm thinking about the most right now. My first cube versions left out most of the one drops because they're boring and I knew that only aggro decks would want them. That's problematic. I still don't want to include a pile of one drop 2/1 cards that only aggro decks want, but I also don't want the downsides of a cube with no decent aggro in its metagame.

Who can point me to some more resources on interesting ways of supporting aggro in a cube?

Here's some stuff I've found so far:


Why support aggro
Recursive black aggroBW humans aggro
"Reach stage" of aggro game plan
Aggro subtractive design
Rethinking Rethinking Red

Do you have any more great articles to recommend on this subject?

 

[shamizy]

Pretty much you want your aggressive decks to feature more potential lines of play than just what a base 2/1 body would represent. You'll need to include a certain number of these that will only be attractive to aggressive decks, I don't really think there's a good way of getting around that since an Aggro gameplan is all about maximizing damage output in a minimal amount of time. The most effective way to parlay that is a bigger than average output for a given body across the curve and a 2/1 for 1 accomplishes that, no matter how inelegant a solution that might seem. Truthfully there's not really a good way to mitigate this issue; you're just going to have some cards in your cube that only certain archetypes will want to feature.

As many of those threads indicate, the best way to do this is to find creative solutions by utilizing creatures that can blend together synergistically. You still want maximize the amount of pressure that your aggressive decks can apply, but you want there to be something beyond the typical gameplan of spewing a bunch of bodies and hoping to fade a Wrath effect. Recursive Aggro gives you bodies that can keep on attacking through interaction, Humans lets you go vertically instead of just horizontally, and more Aristocrats-y style cards give you the additional reach you need to get across the finish line. It's more just laying out what you want from an aggressive deck in your cube environment and finding pieces to fit that definition.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

This post on reddit is one of my favorite "academic" musings on mtg design, where a framework is suggested for defining archetypes like aggro, midrange and control. The post proposes that an aggro deck is predominantly consisting of threats, where you have a redundancy of similar cards (creatures in 1-3 cmc that are good at turning sideways, no niche cards), and try to win by pressuring your opponent early rather than winning inevitably.

Given this definition, I think aggro is straightforward to support without being 'poisonous'. Simply present enough creatures in 1-3 cmc that have stats and abilities that make them good in combat, and you have support for aggro.

When it comes to one drops in particular, I would argue that to some extent you need to give aggressive decks their own cards. These decks are not going to play many 6cmc+ cards, so you can just as well argue that fatties are poisonous. This has been debated before on this forum, but midrange and control decks (that win through inevitability rather pressure) needs big impactful creatures to win with, just as aggro needs some way to go under them and win early.

The trick is to play more cards like dauntless bodyguard rather than Isamaru, hound of konda, so that other decks are interested in playing the one drops. Again, though, a format needs some cards available specifically for certain strategies, otherwise I would argue that you end up with a sort of "good stuff midrange" format where you can't really be fast, and most cards are generically good so you don't need to build around any specific premise.

Aggro can be fun to play and easy to support! Keep your curve low, make sure your creatures have some abilities.

 

[Nemo]

I'm fine with the idea that some number of one drops will be purely for aggro decks. I just don't want a big pile of them, and I'm interested in seeing more of the creative ways that people have made aggro interesting to draft.

There just aren't that many interesting options at 1CC compared to the wealth of choices at 3CC and 4CC. So, custom cards make a lot of sense to me. I just spent a bunch of time reading through the thread on Chris Taylor's Dandy Cube with all of those custom cards. WOW. My mind is blown. I'll have to go back and finish reading the rest of that thread in the near future.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I'm fine with the idea that some number of one drops will be purely for aggro decks. I just don't want a big pile of them, and I'm interested in seeing more of the creative ways that people have made aggro interesting to draft.

There just aren't that many interesting options at 1CC compared to the wealth of choices at 3CC and 4CC. So, custom cards make a lot of sense to me. I just spent a bunch of time reading through the thread on Chris Taylor's Dandy Cube with all of those custom cards. WOW. My mind is blown. I'll have to go back and finish reading the rest of that thread in the near future.

Always happy to hear it

This is something I've struggled with for a while, and something you need to keep in the back of your head: 4 and 5cc cards look cooler because they're allowed to have more text on them, and more text doesn't always make for a better fit.

Here's what I do: Just make sure your curve is alright (There's a chart somewhere looking at the curve of Zendikar, one of the fastest limited formats ever, and Rise of the Eldrazi, one of the slowest. Their curves look almost identical) and that you're not accidentally filling the cube with cards that say, only punish attacking, or tons of walls, for eg.
Don't feel you're above savannah lions, savannah lions is great

 

[genericco]

Depending on who you ask, those 2/1s for 1 are either the problem with aggro or the solution to supporting it. I see it as a color pie thing. Red one drops work because red, Black recursive aggro is built on one drops, and/or you can have a format where aggro starts at 2 CMC with evasion for blue or green, if the removal is tailored to fit. I think for engaging aggro you start there rather than trying to make white 2/1s fun. I don't think there is a solution to that problem.

To me, white aggro is built on a lot of hopeful thinking. If you can always win the die roll, always curve out your derpy ground-bound one and two-drops, and reliably follow it up with protection from color or Armageddon or something, you could 3-0 on the night with it, but it's more variance and fewer lines of possible play than I would want to take on.

So I don't think it's fun, or essential, or even all that competitive. Like Dauntless Bodyguard as a modern day Savannah Lions - it's still a narrow card. It's still a reductive strategy. It's overall still a filler pick. Having some play on it instead of zero play doesn't fix the problems with the archetype.

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Drafting a half-dozen Champion of the Parish is better than a half-dozen 2/1s for W, but sounds like it would get old too. What I do like from white is mid-range masquerading as aggro, like one-drops backed up by Mentor of the Meek or Bygone Bishop, or those Parish Champs building to a Armorcraft Judge. If card advantage is part of the plan, isn't that mid-range?

There are a few cards that basically replace themselves. Thraben Inspector, Sacred Cat are my favorites right now, usually to pair with Ninja of the Deep Hours, Tandem Lookout, or Cartouche of Knowledge. There are just as few of these as there are Bygone Bishop-type cards. But it's an attacking spin you can put on a mostly mid-range white section that would feel incomplete without it.

 

[japahn]

My approach is having a slow and low-powered enough environment that a deck does not need to be focused in 2/1s for 1 to be faster than other decks.

Leaning on 1-3 drops helps blending aggro with midrange, and allows it to be either synergy-based or aggro-control, which makes them more interesting to build, play with, and play against.

To illustrate the aggro-control decks, the two best performing decks last draft:

UG Tempo

An aggro-control deck at heart, deploys early threats and maintains tempo advantage with bounce (Man-o'-War, Time of Ice, Into the Roil), tempo counterspells (Frilled Mystic, Counterspell), and can fight a long game with the card draw that's aggro-friendly (Looter il-Kor, Ongoing Investigation, Chart a Course, Shapers' Sanctuary, Mystic Archaeologist). This deck was always on the offensive, but playing an interactive game of tempo attrition.

WU Fliers

This deck's plan A is evasion. Combining evasive creatures like Selfless Spirit, Flickerwisp, and Warkite Marauder with buffs (Curiosity, Squire's Devotion, Vulshok Battlegear, Lightning Greaves) meant it was always applying pressure on the opponent and forcing them into the defensive. Racing it with aggro or midrange threats was hard due to the lifelinkers and the walls. Many games finished with a burst of flash creature EOT (Nimble Obstructionist, Pestermite) + Great Teacher's Decree killing the opponent out of nowhere.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

My first cube versions left out most of the one drops because they're boring and I knew that only aggro decks would want them. That's problematic. I still don't want to include a pile of one drop 2/1 cards that only aggro decks want, but I also don't want the downsides of a cube with no decent aggro in its metagame.

Emphasis mine. Sorry to be blunt, but that's a (very biased) opinion, not a fact. What you have to ask yourself is, are there other players in my play group that enjoy said one drops? If so, are you okay with a part of your cube not catering to your own preferences but to the preferences of others? Judging from your "That's problematic", I wonder if you are. I have never found the inclusion of aggro-skewed one drops to be problematic. so I wonder why you do feel that way.

I'm not saying you have to support aggro, by the way. Just look at dbs's combo cube, and you'll see that it's perfectly possible to craft a fun, challenging cube that eschews the typical aggro one drops you seem to loathe. You've got to make that choice for yourself, but if you do end up wanting aggro in your environment, I think you need to accept that you either need to make room for those "boring" (again, totally subjective) aggressive one drops, or craft your environment in such a way that aggro can get there with interesting two drops before control and midrange take over the game.

 

[genericco]

Okay, what makes Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup variants interesting and format-enriching? I must be biased as well - these cards seem pretty boring, narrow and format-reducing.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Okay, what makes Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup variants interesting and format-enriching? I must be biased as well - these cards seem pretty boring, narrow and format-reducing.

Who says aggro is only interested in vanilla cards? Just to name a few...

Isamaru, Hound of Konda enhances the historic subtheme in my white section, which has an aggressive bend thanks to D'Avenant Trapper and Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle (which isn't itself aggressive, but provides a lot of recursion for the deck).
Champion of the Parish is a great build around card that can grow threateningly large.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros is a nice card to encourage go wide aggro, with a nice payoff if you manage to trigger it.
Dauntless Bodyguard is great on turn one, but has added benefit if you topdeck it, protecting one of your bigger threats.
Thraben Inspector carries a Bonesplitter as well as any of the above, while providing a bit of card flow to the aggro player. This card is just as nice for a slower deck though, making it an attractive option for both aggro and non-aggro.
Bomat Courier applies pressure from turn one, and cashes in for a bunch of reach once you can no longer get it through.
Frenzied Goblin makes sure you can get in with your small dorks, even if your opponent has a big blocker.
Goblin Guide may be the best aggro drop in existence, but as a 2/2, it's never broken, even in lower powered cube, and a super exiting signal for anyone who actually is interested in playing aggro.
Grim Lavamancer lets you cash in the inevitable casualties (you play a lot of small dorks after all) for late game reach.
Stromkirk Noble is a surprisingly effective one drop, that, like Champion of the Parish, keeps growing and growing if your opponent doesn't deal with it.

I happen to like playing aggro decks, and I know other players who do as well, but if you don't, you're never to see these cards as interesting. That's not something I can help. It's just something you need to be aware of while you are building your cube. If you want to please the aggro aficionados in your play group, accept that you are going to include some cards that you don't enjoy yourself.

 

[Erik Twice]

I think making aggro decks more disruptive is the best way of keeping Aggro interesting and less parasitic. Free or cheap counterspells (Daze), discard (Kitesail Freebooter) and disruptive creatures like Thalia or Imposing Sovereign can go a long way.

Okay, what makes Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup variants interesting and format-enriching? I must be biased as well - these cards seem pretty boring, narrow and format-reducing.

Creatures that produce pressure and can attack from early on or trade for more expensive cards are inherently interesting. And, most importantly, they are not interesting on their own, they are interesting in that they enable an interesting archetype with varied gameplay that works well within the framework of the game.

Keep in mind that a game where you have to balance early aggression and late game reach is more interesting than a game where you ramp into 4 or 5cc spells and win on their back.

 

[ravnic]

Okay, what makes Savannah Lions and Jackal Pup variants interesting and format-enriching? I must be biased as well - these cards seem pretty boring, narrow and format-reducing.

Well, I run both of these cards exactly and I think they're very interesting and much format enriching. They are not only part of different interesting aggressive strategies, but they also provide a constant thread and fear for the players, so they don't get too greedy with the durdling, which is really important to balance a format imo. I also don't only enjoy playing with them, I also love playing against them, as stabilizing against a blistering aggro start is one of the most satisfying challenges in MtG for me.

 

[Nemo]

Emphasis mine. Sorry to be blunt, but that's a (very biased) opinion, not a fact. What you have to ask yourself is, are there other players in my play group that enjoy said one drops? If so, are you okay with a part of your cube not catering to your own preferences but to the preferences of others? Judging from your "That's problematic", I wonder if you are. I have never found the inclusion of aggro-skewed one drops to be problematic. so I wonder why you do feel that way.

Fair enough; I shouldn't have called them boring. I appreciate being reminded of my biases. In fact, I am specifically trying to support a wider variety of interests, recognizing that my cube started out with too much emphasis on themes that I like. That's why I'm asking questions. I actually have a bunch of the one drops in my cube, and I recently added several more, to the point that the low costs look a little more similar to the average cube than I'd like. However, I think having a unique cube is going to have to be a low priority at this point.

 

[Nemo]

My approach is having a slow and low-powered enough environment that a deck does not need to be focused in 2/1s for 1 to be faster than other decks.

I was scratching the surface of your cube last night, and I'm very interested in it. I might have to price it out and consider using it as a template.

I had actually wondered about the viability of a slower cube with a different sort of aggro. Thanks for including UW and UG examples, because I was also curious what sorts of aggro people had tried outside of the R/B/W that I typically see.

 

[sigh]

Death and Taxes is one of the best decks imo! I love a good WB disruptive archetype in cube, and really does add a lot of depth to aggressive strategies.

 

[ravnic]

Yeah i think a huge part ofcmaking aggro interesting is giving it synergistic identities. If all these decks do is being aggressive, I can understand why someone would call them boring. You don't want your midrange or control decks to be just goodstuff decks right? So why let aggro be the boring guy?

Here I have 3 different examples of aggro decks, that don t have aggro in their name, because they focus on synergy and just happen to do so in a pretty aggressive way.

R/g Madness from CubeTutor.com

W/B lifegain from CubeTutor.com

Boros GoWide from CubeTutor.com

 

[Brad]

This might not be at all helpful because it doesn't fit anyone's build, but here:

My cube is about 40% mono black cards and the W/U/R/G sections are about half WB/UB/RB/GB. This is relevant because it allowed me to place the HUGE majority of my one drops into black. There's a few nonblack one drops that are extremely relevant to the nature of the format, like Mardu Woe-Reaper or Dryad Militant, but having most of the one drops confined to black, which every deck runs, it reduces how narrow each one is.

One drops ARE a little poisonous due to being so narrow. I've alleviated this by making all of the black one drops relevant (90% of the total one drops), even if there's only one aggro deck at the table. In the more typical case of there being 2-3 aggro decks, they are all fighting over mostly the same set of one drops, rather than one of them having an open set of one drops.

SO, that's probably useless because no one runs a black cube, although this idea would work in any color-centric cube, except maybe blue.

PROS: Your aggro decks will be extremely cohesive and strong
CONS: You will have to entirely rebuild your cube while adopting a brand new, unexplored mindset

__________

Second option, which I haven't done, but follows the same principle:

I believe it was Onder who pitched the idea of a -1 CMC cube. Basically, Helm of Awakening as an emblem for both players. I researched it a little when I was considering a rebuild, but my cube drafted super well with the most recent set of updates, so I scrapped the idea.

But, that added rule allows you to take a lot of the 2-mana 2/1 artifact/colorless creatures and make them really flexible one drops. Bronze Sable or Prismite or even Phyrexian Revoker, Bonded Construct looks interesting. Endless One is some serious stuff.

A lot of other cards get super cool in this format, too. Green and white's shitty lack of card draw gets covered up by some of their spells getting a bit more efficient. Some of blue's over-costed super-filtering spells start looking like really efficient smoothers, as well. A lot of new things open up, and there's probably completely unknown guild assignments that become awesome when they get costed-down. I always approached it as if the now-cheaper card were at a power-max kind of level. Like a 2/1 for 1 is a normal statline, it's just a lot easier to cast now and probably opens up some super-aggro artifact build or whatever.

Again, I don't suspect anyone will do this, but it's out there. This is one of my two primary contenders for a second cube. It's very tempting as a second cube because so many commons and other bad/cheap($) cards become your foundation.

PROS: Your aggro decks will be extremely cohesive and strong
CONS: You will have to entirely rebuild your cube while adopting a brand new, unexplored mindset



Don't think anyone will do either of these, but I also don't think anyone has this perspective on the matter, so it seemed worth putting out there.

 

[Brad]

Not trying to spam, but this seems the easiest way to ask:

People asked about my cube last time, but I don't really have the time/patience right now to type it up and put out a legitimate post. However, I'm sorting through it as soon as the new cards come in and it will be organized into sections.

LIKE THIS POST IF you want me to toss up semi-shitty cell phone pics of it while it's sectioned out. Probably one pic each of W/U/R/G, artifact, land, and like 2-4 pics to cover the black section.