General The Cube Contest

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Today was pretty intense but I kept my small advantage til the last minute. :)

I asked Wizards if I could make some changes on the list (including Kaladesh + minor adjustment). I'll discuss all your suggestions and comments tomorrow.

Congrats! I hope our criticism is helpful :)

Also, you should totally put a link to your cube in your sig so I don't have to scroll back to your post to find it.

I'm not even looking at this in too much depth because it'd be like reading a whole Franzen novel, but I will share that a rather joyless local bitched about losing in some round or the other and I cheerfully informed him it was because he didn't listen to my criticism on the Google Groups RiptideLab around three and a half years ago. I am now blocked on multiple social-media sites

Quick hits (you know me, hits):

—Why is it worth getting angry about when Wizards drops the ball on a good idea? Anyone here who seriously expected those guys to hold a contest that we'd enjoy should *ahem* read my book and PT sucks article
—wtwlf lives on MTGS, a forum so averse to criticism that no good idea has been published there in roughly a decade, not sure what you expected there either
—I want more actual twisting from Tim and fewer cards that do nothing (Peace of Mind, you know who you are)
—Any contest where it helps to suck up to @mtg_lee and "have close ties to the MTGO staff" is a contest not worth winning
—Klug's alters are generally terrific but the Cube is, well, uh, let me put it this way. Would Kanye write a novel? Would I perform a dance quartet? Would Jason Waddell try to draw fantasy art?
—Even though I thought shit-talking was a primary purpose of this forum, I'll cheerfully claim responsibility for all the negative sentiments in this thread so as to not compromise future Christmas and anniversary presents

Also, it's good to have our house-troll back. Thanks for saving Christmas! :p

I think Peace of Mind is a cross-over piece for the reanimator (discard) and life (repeatable life gain) themes in white? Doesn't really make the card any more playable, but at least it has a reason to be there...
 
First of all: Congratulations on your victory over the heinous pro tour cube.​
I asked Wizards if I could make some changes on the list (including Kaladesh + minor adjustment). I'll discuss all your suggestions and comments tomorrow.​
Please, for the love of Avacyn, cut Recurring Nightmare from your cube before it becomes a recurring nightmare for us all.
Diabolic Servitude is a much more fair version.​
I would also advise checking out the draft charts on the analysis page of your cubetutor list. Many if not most of the top picks are going to be problems. It's also worth noting that black holds 4 of the top 6 slots on that list, while the other two are colorless. This seems like an issue.​
I don't know how much you are allowed to change, but I will be happy to share Prophecies of Cubes to Come with you for however long you are interested in them.​
 
I love the (low) power level of your cube! I found a lower power level makes a lot of interesting cards playable.

I would however cut these based on being GRBS:


And I'd keep an eye on these:


These look underwhelming:


And these don't really fit the shifted color pie theme, they sound like simply sacred cows:
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Categorically labelling something as GRBS is a bit misleading; is FTK much more than an efficient 2-for-1? What if there are lots of token makers, first strikers, and so on that make its body less effective, or the best midgame threats have >4 toughness? How often does Managorger Hydra get out of control in a format with lots of cheap removal?
 
Categorically labelling something as GRBS is a bit misleading; is FTK much more than an efficient 2-for-1? What if there are lots of token makers, first strikers, and so on that make its body less effective, or the best midgame threats have >4 toughness? How often does Managorger Hydra get out of control in a format with lots of cheap removal?
Also, like half the cards he listed as GRBS or worth watching are in my cube, so clearly it's subjective based on power level.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think its important that we not get hung up on the term GRBS, which is overly nebulous.

The issue for his specific format is the power band between cards that are always individually playable, living alongside cards that are just unplayable without synergy. It makes the format feel incongruent, as you can just prioritize the strong cards and ignore the synergy cards, negating the creative idea behind building it.

And thats fun for nobody :(
 
Hello again and sorry for vanishing after my enthusiast first posts. The main reason why I didn't came back earlier is that Wizards told me that it won't be possible to make any change, the second one is that I have been a zombie for the last 10 days as spending 8 hours on social media to try to win the contest after my work day stole me countless hours of sleep.

I'll try to answer all suggestions I received here, and update the cube the way I would have done it if Wizards was making the changes. Keep in mind that it's still theory crafting and I don't want to make a revolution on the list (if I changed 50 cards, it would have been too far from the list people voted for).


About mana ratio :

I'll add Grand Coliseum, I already play Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expense and Mana confluence. I don't feel that City of brass is worth it (there is no way to play 3 color aggro deck, this card is weak in this cube) and Undiscovered Paradise would probably fall into the "I didn't read this weird looking card" category, despite being a correct control tool. There is no other good option until Ash Barrens hits modo.
I might be wrong on this but I don't want to have 10 more biland in the list for 2 reasons : I don't want players to be able to consistently pick good cards from 3 colors to have a 3cc good stuff that actually wins, and 3 color decks should be rare as it's not well supported.


About the wide power band :

it increases variance and lower the balance between packs and ultimately between decks. However, most of the "too good" cards are also popular, iconic cube cards, that players love and want to play with. Some of those cards also create archetypes (Opposition, Wildfire, Ghostly Prison, Recurring Nightmare...) If the cube was made to be only played by experienced cube players or designer, then it wouldn't be a problem to simply cut the top cards and reduce power level (bye bye for 80% of the planeswalkers!). But we are a minority here, there's plenty of players that would rather play with shiny powerful cards than in a very balanced environment.
There is no card that can destroy most games where it's played while not asking for a strong deckbuilding commitment (Umezawa Jitte and Sol Ring are not here, the stronger card not asking for a specific home is probably Chandra, Torch of Defiance).


About Black being too good :

people overestimate Bitterblossom and Griselbrand. Grim Lavamancer and Overrun are probably much better cards in this list. Recurring may be the best first pick first pack but it shouldn't be above Liliana. I feel that black is weaker than red and green, I am not worried about this color.


About suggested cards :

_I tried to avoid misleading cards (Honden of infinite rage fits the cube but may let people think that the whole cycle is in, it's frustrating. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth Tyrel works perfectly with tokens... that white doesn't support, so they can't take the white planeswalker slot. Diabolic servitude would be the only black reanimation spell,= -outside of Recurring Nightmare that works differently-. UW tempo guys falls in this category too).

_Many of the suggested cards where at some point in the list but were too low on power level to be kept. All the suggested small blue guys and Rakdos card fall in this category (except for Serendib efreet, which I shouldn't have cut, and Sire of insanity which is out because of I needed Rakdos slot for mana artifact).

_White reanimation target : I choosed to play the legendary over the listed ones to make Loyal Retainer good. I put all the 5 mana or less white reanimation effect and the theme is still smaller than I would like it to be so I need Loyal Retainer to work (it influenced the choice of black creatures too).

_Firemane Angel : it's a 2 color fringe card that need a discard outlet to be usefull so I cut it, but it fits life and angel themes perfectly... I'll add it as I add more discard outlet (thanks, Cathartic reunion).

_Vengeful Dreams : I just didn't thought about this card and I need discard outlet in W, I'll add it.

_Goblin Matron : There's is no real goblin theme : all the "goblin matters" card works fine alone.

_Mana Breach : It doesn't work well with blue ability to play multiple small spell each turn.

_Mana Vortex : this could work, I never played the card so I won't add it as I don't know if it's good enough, but I would like to try it.

_ Black tutors : I had an argument to keep them in, I can remember it and it was probably ba anyway, I'll cut them.

_Izzet staticaster : It's not that bad. And Izzet theme is pingers.

_Japhan listed cards (sacred cows) : except bolt and maybe sphere, they are in theme : sorcerer, token producer, UB CiP...

_Japhan listed cards (color twisted cards) : most of them are too weak, Pyroclasm is too oppressive for U and G. Crypt Ghast is a good idea, it should replace the black high tide.

_UU and BB cards : that's true, even if black cards with this problem can be played from the grave. I'll cut Tidebinder mage and Despoiler of Souls to reduce it, but I won't cut more as the other cards are strong part of their archetypes.

I'll make the in/out tomorrow and send it to Wizards in case they end up making changes, but I'll most likely not happen.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas!
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
So the cube is up online now if you guys want to give it a fire. I drafted some of the GRBS cards I could find and ended up with the strongest RW control build I have seen (can you guess what I first picked? :p):
vDiDYOt.png

Played against GW enchantments, GR tokens and Esper control. Only really struggled against a turn 3 Liliana of the Veil other than that was an easy 3-0.

I feel that there is a bit too much of a variance in power level and too much GRBS. Only one draft in, but I feel it is just a wonkier version of the Legendary Cube (RIP) :(
 
You can get ride of this "combo" with Sharpshooter or Staticaster, use an o-ring, go with flyers/shadow guys, play an Overrun or a Rolling Earthquake, or just mill your opponent with a Psychic Spiral.
It's powerfull but slow and far from unbeatable.

I admit that Opposition/Recurring and PW are extremely powerfull in this environnement but I have seen enough successful very thematic decks to confidently say that GRBS cards don't ruin everything.

First pick a PW, siege or dismember?
 
CxqhgXnUsAAsK8z.jpg:large


In a single elim, went 3-0 (bringing in Sever the Bloodline versus monoblack) against mono red control, ??? no show and monoblack value creatures- 2-1 record in matches for each win. too bad wotc didn't work to refine this, as it seems like it's on the way to being a fun moderately powered design with a lot of unique cards. had a bit of a hard time getting to 22 playables (and mtgo screwed me by selecting Precognition over Breeding pool). might even draft it again despite not having much time this weekend!

Good job, Timothee. I'd love to hear your takeaway from this experience.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry for the size of the image. Drafted this with my brother, and 3 - 0'd.

15302460_10154706706927645_448224502_o.png


Our mana was pretty good, and the only game loss was to Recurring Nightmare + Griselbrand. I maintain that Recurring Nightmare is a stupid, stupid Magic card.

First game, due to the wonder of leagues, was a Meren mirror match, which was just miserably grindy. Caldera Hellion was sweet though.

One game we were really about to get clocked out. Then I did something I've never done. Ultimate this card:
Image.ashx


I had about 2 minutes on the clock when I even bothered to read it. The board was clogged with creatures on each side, but thanks to Vessel of Nascency, I had 5 creatures in the yard, and all of a sudden I was attacking for 40 trample damage.

Other fun win: +1 ing Xenagos to make a boatload of mana, then using Pia and Kiran to shoot a boatload of thopters to the face (Pia + Hangarback tokens).
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Not sure what thread it was mentioned, or if I should make a new thread, but there was a new 'you make the cube' variant that was given a chance to run for one week only. The uncommon cube!
It looks like they will be putting up niche cubes for a week for a different experience, then pulling them down to never be seen again (rip legendary cube).

I've given the uncommon cube a couple of spins so far and it seems pretty enjoyable so far. The power level is very flat, there are some interesting archetypes, and it feels like most games are pretty tight.

My first draft was some awkward mono blue aggro deck that splashed white and green for various auras. Totem-Guide Hartebeest searching up control magic was pretty tech. But Ongoing Investigation had to be my pick for the best card in that deck. Just kept the cards flowing, and the lifegain isn't irrelevant either. Went 2-1.

Second draft, these were my first 3 picks:

Then proceeded to draft the most absurd GW aggro deck I have ever done. It is also surprising how many creatures in these colours can act as removal:

Who needs Shriekmaw when you can just play the stag? Didn't realise this card even existed. Only lost one game to a grixis control deck that 2-4-1's me with every creature I played.
I think they also cast Prophetic Bolt about 4 times that game. Easy 3-0.

I am currently 2 games through a league, before I thought to post these thoughts. This draft I did my usual thing of picking fixing as much as I could and just pick good cards as they came around.
This is where I finally understand the power of the crab:
IHtqyB7.jpg


This deck is pretty absurd. Just shove in what ever removal you can then just ride a single threat to victory. Vexing Scuttler has been great. It usually brought back dominate to steal another creature, but other times it brings back Soul Manipulation, for a sort of soft loop to keep bringing back this terrifying 4/5. Going to play this cube for a decent amount because hey, it is fun and only around for a week. May as well get the most out of it.
 
I also gave the uncommon cube a try! My deck was fairly uninspired (started black-green sacrifice and ended up midrange, splashing blue for some card advantage); Cursed Predation, as many who have tried it in cube know, is not a reasonable mtg card. Went 3-0 too easily (as opponents made some bad plays when games were tight).

My favorite part of the experience was definitely the gameplay; it felt like a good masters set or pauper cube (maybe vintage masters is a good frame of reference). Planning ahead was important, especially with Reach of Branches, Nantuko Husk and Temur Sabertooth (which was super enjoyable to activate as well as quite more vulnerable than I expected). Happy to see Wizards branch out a little with these cube "experiments".

Deck:

uncommon_cube_1.JPG
 
I used to play as a ringer for this guy's mtgo peasant cube, and the number of decks i built full of value cards like e-wit, bloodbraid, shardless, shriekmaw, sylvan library, etc was ridiculous. Idk if it was just the playgroup or what, but i picked fixing highly and usually ended up 3-0ing or going 2-1 with a GBx pile.

Some lists i drafted below the spoiler:
foYMtV0.png

fJMKZ1W.png
 
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