General The Idiosyncratic Component Obession

[FlowerSunRain]

I have a copy of the game Vineta. It's a charming little game where the players represent the Norse Gods and destroy an island of their worshipers for some reason. One of the components of the game is wooden figures shaped like houses. One day I wanted to play and I noticed that one of my purple houses were missing. We were in a 6 player game, meaning all of the components were required. Rather then simply not playing, I opened up the box to the game China, which has similar looking purple houses. We took one of them, and played the game, having a great deal of fun.

But, if it had been a CCG instead of a board game, there is a reasonable chance someone would have thrown a shitfit if I has attempted to proxy a component. If I had opened up my deck box and noticed that my Jace, the Mindsculptor was missing, a lot of people would not have let me use something similar to represent the missing card.

I've heard even nastier things, though. I've heard comments explaining that people don't "deserve" to be able to play certain cards/decks if they can't afford the cards. Even people who allow proxies often say that the person using them "should plan on buying the deal card". Only CCG players ever seem to think that owning a component gives license to the ability to play the game.

Maybe next time I play Caylus, I'll make sure everyone else who playing the game with me also owns a copy of the game and if they don't, I'll kick them out and won't let them play. It'll make me look like a total dick. But, if the game was MtG, doing that would be completely normal and acceptable.

Part of the reason I love Cube is because it takes this pointless component obsession and kicks it in the proverbial face.

 

[Jason Waddell]

One of the things I like about David Sirlin is that he is very open about how terrible the CCG model is. But sometimes I also wonder now that I'm on the other side of things. The fact that things are so expensive allows for interesting content sites like CFB and SCG to exist. I enjoy visiting those sites and find they add value to my life.

The worst part of constructed is that most people don't get to play the "build the best deck I can" game, but rather the weird constrained optimization "build the best deck I can afford" game.

Maybe if you've shelled out a lot of money you feel betrayed if somebody plays the same game for free.

I like cube because it lets me share what I find to be the best parts of Magic with people for free. There are people who have never cast a Jace who get to play with one when they draft.

I also find many Magic cards to be rather beautiful (not necessarily the art specifically, but the entire aesthetic), and have a positive feeling when I see the cards that I don't get when I look at one of my proxies.

 

[Dom Harvey]

I agree with the OP completely, but as Jason said there's something about actually holding physical cards - and something that feels 'off' about proxies - that makes the otherwise inexplicable ritual quest to track down cards every set release feel sensible.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Did you misspell the title on purpose? Were you being super meta?

 

[FlowerSunRain]

There is, I think, a difference between the pride and joy of owning a genuine card and the need to exclude people from playing the game because they don't. The pride of being a collector doesn't have anything to do with playing the game. Think about baseball cards or vinyl. I've never met someone who collected books refuse to talk with me about title because I borrowed my copy from the library.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, but there's a lot of Magic culture I don't agree with. In a tournament last weekend I played an RG deck where my opponent cast Devil's Play for 2 against my 3/3 Flinthoof Boar and I let him take it back. I don't think that would be the most common Magic community line there. Opponent would have been really sad and frustrated at the mistake, and since we're all here to have a good time I really don't see the advantage in trying to win through his innocent mistake.

 

[VincePendrell]

I've never had an issue with proxies before. I've also never met anyone in person that dislikes 'em and wouldn't play against someone using proxies outside of tournament play.

I also have come to understand that I don't want my budget limitations to interfere with my friends enjoyment of my cube, so that is why I am completely open to playing with proxies and such. I do differentiate in one point, though: As Jason pointed out, there is some enjoyment of looking at pretty-looking cards, so I try to make my proxies from hard-to-acquire cards as cool loking as possible (I have altered proxies for some P9 and foil proxies for dual lands and other antiquities), while more affordable cards are usually printed in low-quality.

Though, yeah, when you look it at one way, it looks like this patter emerges:
Constructed: I have spent a lot of money on cards and I'm going to play them against you!
Cube: I have spent a lot of money on cards and I'm going to play them with you!

(On a side note, I've met one of the designers of Vineta a couple of years ago (Fabiano Onça) and he is a great guy! He even got together with some friends to try our first semester board game project and offer some advices for us wannabe game designers.)

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Though, yeah, when you look it at one way, it looks like this patter emerges:
Constructed: I have spent a lot of money on cards and I'm going to play them against you!
Cube: I have spent a lot of money on cards and I'm going to play them with you!

That's funny!

 

[Spiderdoofus]

I enjoy looking at the real cards when I'm not actually playing. When I'm actually playing, I find I don't care about the aesthetics at all. Black border, white border, foil, non-foil, proxy, real...when I actually play all of that stuff doesn't matter. The collection aspect and playing aspect are pretty separate for me.

Slightly OT, but the cost of MtG cards is one of the biggest downsides to the game IMO. I tried to limit the cost of my cube from the beginning, using Collector's Edition cards, or gold-bordered when possible. I wanted to feel comfortable playing it with strangers or taking it with me. However, a lot of the cards have become so expensive I wouldn't replace them if they were stolen and consequently, I haven't brought my cube anywhere in months. It sucks to worry about stuff like someone spilling a drink on the cards.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Slightly OT, but the cost of MtG cards is one of the biggest downsides to the game IMO. I tried to limit the cost of my cube from the beginning, using Collector's Edition cards, or gold-bordered when possible. I wanted to feel comfortable playing it with strangers or taking it with me. However, a lot of the cards have become so expensive I wouldn't replace them if they were stolen and consequently, I haven't brought my cube anywhere in months. It sucks to worry about stuff like someone spilling a drink on the cards.

Hmm, that's a little sad to hear.

 

[CML]

There's something horribly wrong when first prize at a massive Legacy Grand Prix will barely reimburse you for the cost of the deck. Wizards is clearly worried about pegging the cost of the game to prizes, though having things as grossly disproportionate as they are is certainly much more dangerous. There are all the concerns about traveling with decks (I also won't bring my Cube into public places and am loath to lug it along in trips), but then there's the lack of diversity formats like Legacy engender i.e. you better be pretty rich or have had the cards for a really long time, so it becomes an old boys' club. I'm glad our playgroup has a sugar daddy, in other words.

What's the best way to make money at an MTG event? Run it? Nah, you steal shit. Kinda depressing

 

[Jason Waddell]

Many competitive things for "youth" audiences suffer from this. At MLG events almost everybody was better off financially if they chose to be a lowly judge manning the booth (free flight, room, food, a couple hundred dollars to boot) rather than actually compete for prizes.

 

[Dom Harvey]

The sad part is that Magic isn't even that bad as far as competitive prize money goes (at least at the PT level); see chess, Scrabble, etc.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, but people aren't required to spend X amount in "equipment" from the hosting company per year to stay competitive in chess or Scrabble.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

So I read this article (and the comments in the forum about it) and it tangentially related to this topic.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1399-legacy-analysis-reflections-slivers.html

Long story short, the author complains that WotC doesn't care about Legacy, that the format is going into decline and that without intervention it will die out.

Whether or not that is true, the author and all the peanut gallery leave out what is to me the most obvious solution: take personal stewardship over the format.

I mean, if the premise is that there is a dedicated group of people that really love Legacy and totally think they know what is best for the format, why not man up and do it? Abolish the reserve list (i.e. allow proxies), control the banned list, etc. Complaining that someone else is doing it wrong only goes so far: WotC has no onus to be the stewards of Legacy. They have no responsibility to keep the format healthy. Blaming them for killing Legacy is entirely pointless: the community's inaction will kill the format.

I am not an active follower of Legacy, so I don't know if the format is actually dying, I'm just running with the premise.

 

[Jason Waddell]

So I read this article (and the comments in the forum about it) and it tangentially related to this topic.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1399-legacy-analysis-reflections-slivers.html

Long story short, the author complains that WotC doesn't care about Legacy, that the format is going into decline and that without intervention it will die out.

Whether or not that is true, the author and all the peanut gallery leave out what is to me the most obvious solution: take personal stewardship over the format.

I mean, if the premise is that there is a dedicated group of people that really love Legacy and totally think they know what is best for the format, why not man up and do it? Abolish the reserve list (i.e. allow proxies), control the banned list, etc. Complaining that someone else is doing it wrong only goes so far: WotC has no onus to be the stewards of Legacy. They have no responsibility to keep the format healthy. Blaming them for killing Legacy is entirely pointless: the community's inaction will kill the format.

I am not an active follower of Legacy, so I don't know if the format is actually dying, I'm just running with the premise.

This is a little pie in the sky though. Like, there were people who thought Super Smash Bros. Brawl was terrible, and tried to "take it over" with their own mod that fixes a lot of the dumb stuff in the game, but it's so hard to gain traction for a non-official product. Instead everybody just went back to playing "another format" (Melee).

 

[FlowerSunRain]

This is a little pie in the sky though. Like, there were people who thought Super Smash Bros. Brawl was terrible, and tried to "take it over" with their own mod that fixes a lot of the dumb stuff in the game, but it's so hard to gain traction for a non-official product. Instead everybody just went back to playing "another format" (Melee).

But, the Smash Brothers community is the perfect example of a group of fans that took personal stewardship of their format rather then wait for an official source to do so for them. Nintendo doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the Smash Brothers community. They didn't design the format (what game mode, what stages, what items, etc.), they don't sanction the events and they don't update the product to meet the needs of the community. The entire reason there is a Smash Brothers Community is because fans of the game decided to take the initiative to do all that stuff.

 

[Jason Waddell]

You do have a point there. Smash also went through a ton of turmoil though. As an MLG employee I had access to the "Smash Back Room" forum where all the decisions were made, and witnessed years of arguments about what the stages should be, whether a character (Metaknight) should be banned, what tier lists should be, etc. Even determining who had voting rights was contentious. I can't imagine what that would look like for a Magic format. Who becomes the governing body?

I guess maybe EDH is an example there. Somehow that format has a community run governing body that determines banned lists that even local players adhere to. I feel like it would be very different trying to determine who should be on a Legacy "governing body" though. Thank goodness cube doesn't have anything like that.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I can't imagine what that would look like for a Magic format. Who becomes the governing body?

Well, this very sort of thing happened in another WotC run product: Dungeons and Dragons. Pathfinder is fundamentally D&D 3rd edition as stewarded by Paizo Publishing after WotC abandoned it in favor of D&D 4e (which has subsequently been abandoned for D&D Next). Paizo was a third party publisher who worked extensively on D&D 3rd edition, so they had a lot of clout and leveraged it to become the de facto governing body for 3rd Edition D&D. Pathfinder products have been selling comparably to D&D 4e and now that D&D is between editions again I have little doubt they are dominating the market at least until D&D Next is released.

So, it is certainly feasible for such a thing to happen, particularly since Legacy is merely a format rather then an entire game.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I just can't imagine who they would determine who would become the governing body for such a thing. I'm sure it's possible, but there would be some really dumb political positioning.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Well, in Paizo's case no one determined it. They just started doing it and people started following.

I think the question is due people really enjoy it enough to step up and do something about it dying, or they only like it enough to whine that someone else should fix it, then give up and do something else instead.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Vintage has been largely self-sustaining for over a decade now, although banning/unbanning decisions always prove controversial and important so idk how they would be handled if WotC cut that cord completely.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

I don't think just allowing people to print cards will solve Legacy's problem. It's illegal, and would have to exist outside of the structure in place to support it. It sounds like a lot of work to set up tournaments, especially because stores already do that, albeit not Legacy. People who want to play competitively just have much cheaper options. Sure, rebuying into Standard repeatedly is expensive, but even if costs were equal, paying installments feels better than lump sums (people aren't all rational actors). Also, I don't think many people really do buy into Standard, they either borrow the cards or play what they have. The power level is generally lower, and thus more forgiving for brews.

EDH was totally different because it could coexist with the status quo. I just don't see any competition with the status quo succeeding. Then again, I don't think I will every play a game of Legacy. It might be fun, but I just don't respect any competition with such a high price of entry. It's the dressage of Magic to me. Fine if you want to shell out the cash for the horse (or deck), but just know the competition is highly selected elites.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, I see your dressage argument, but also think Legacy has the highest quality of gameplay of any constructed format.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I don't think just allowing people to print cards will solve Legacy's problem. It's illegal, and would have to exist outside of the structure in place to support it.

Making custom components is not in any way illegal. Even selling them is not illegal. The design, text and artwork of a component are copywritten. The actual functionality of the component or the license to enact the process of playing the game is not.

I certainly agree that allowing proxies may not solve Legacy's problem, but given statements that woeful that players who claim to love Legacy make regarding there dismay at its approaching demise, it seems that it should help. Plenty of other communities enjoy a competitive scene without having profitability, sanction or official components. If people really love the gameplay of Legacy, I don't see why they couldn't too.

Unless Legacy players actually don't care that much about the gameplay and are just upset they won't be able to show off their $3000 decks anymore while complaining about how bad Standard is these days.