Gotta love Esperzoa, it needs to be worked around I think and having some 1-2 cmc artifact that may or may not provide value everytime you play it(yeyy prowess!). A 3 mana 4/3 evasive body is pretty threatening I think, so at least setting it up seems worth it. Then again I am as always concerned with the amount of cheap artifacts available. I am not sure wether or not singleton breaking and/or other shenanigans might be needed to attain the set goals.
The Penny Pincher Cube (360)
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Have you considered looking into colorless artifacts with color identities (or affinity for basics) to help reach a critical mass of playable "colored" artifacts (that function as normal cards many times) and achieve metalcraft? Scars Block's tension (preponderance of artifacts and artifact removal making vanilla ground dragons powerful) was among the best IMO; might be worth exploring it.
etc.
Also, 50/360 nonbasics seems a bit heavy for 30/360 multicolored. Consider cutting land slots to add more multithemed cards?
Lastly, has singleton been broken? I currently see multiples in CT list.
etc.Also, 50/360 nonbasics seems a bit heavy for 30/360 multicolored. Consider cutting land slots to add more multithemed cards?
Lastly, has singleton been broken? I currently see multiples in CT list.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, after thinking over modin's post, I decided he was right, and started toying around with the blue section. Most of the compromises to accomidate singlton weren't that bad until I got to the artifacts, so I basically had to make a decision between whether I really wanted to support those multi-color decks or not. I think the star/sphere effects are interesting enough where its a point where I want to break singleton. Not only does it provide a third direction to go in the draft (multi-color greed) but it adds some unique interactions that I would miss.
It also means I can run a second set of bounce lands, which I think is important for anyone drafting the combo decks I would like to see.
I suppose I should ask for the thread being retitled before I confuse people
It also means I can run a second set of bounce lands, which I think is important for anyone drafting the combo decks I would like to see.
I suppose I should ask for the thread being retitled before I confuse people
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Hey guys, sorry for being away from the project for so long. Had some real life things come up and needed to do some redesign anyways. Anyway that someone with moderater powers could take out the singleton portion of the title? Would appreciate it.
Anyways, I went through the af section and ripped out a ton of stuff, and just went crazy on the singleton breaking to get a baseline. I can tune things later, but this is what the result was:
That looks way better than what we were getting before, and more in line with what I want. I could probably add atog to red, salvage titan, and maybe even salvage slasher to black. There are a bunch of other supporting artifacts I can put back in as well.
I think a good indicator for the health of the archetype is how good is frogmite. It needs to have enough early af plays to explode out, while also bridging the gap to the higher end affinity cards.
Master's call, porcelain legionnaire, and vault skirge play kind of a similar role to frogmite, in the sense that they provide a bunch of generically cheap artifact plays that come out early, and power the otherwise narrow affinity mechanic. Maybe I should cut down on the number of frogmites and run more of those cards?
I'm going to go over and refine some other stuff (lord knows the auras need to be cleaned up) but I feel a lot better about things. Thanks for the input on cubetutor as well as here, it really helps.
Anyways, I went through the af section and ripped out a ton of stuff, and just went crazy on the singleton breaking to get a baseline. I can tune things later, but this is what the result was:
Affinity Test from CubeTutor.com
| | | | | |
| |||||
| |||||
That looks way better than what we were getting before, and more in line with what I want. I could probably add atog to red, salvage titan, and maybe even salvage slasher to black. There are a bunch of other supporting artifacts I can put back in as well.
I think a good indicator for the health of the archetype is how good is frogmite. It needs to have enough early af plays to explode out, while also bridging the gap to the higher end affinity cards.
Master's call, porcelain legionnaire, and vault skirge play kind of a similar role to frogmite, in the sense that they provide a bunch of generically cheap artifact plays that come out early, and power the otherwise narrow affinity mechanic. Maybe I should cut down on the number of frogmites and run more of those cards?
I'm going to go over and refine some other stuff (lord knows the auras need to be cleaned up) but I feel a lot better about things. Thanks for the input on cubetutor as well as here, it really helps.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Ok, here is an example of a storm deck. It works by assembling cloud of faeries, ghostly flicker, mnemonic wall or scrivener, and some number of bouncelands or familiars. Ghostly flicker lets you blink two creatures. If those cards are cloud of faeries and wall/scrivener, you can create an infinite loop that generates infinite mana than storm out for the kill using empty.
If you have both scrivener and mnemonic wall in play, than you can blink cloud of faeries for some arbitrarly immense sum of mana, and than switch to blinking scrivener and mnemonic wall, getting back ghostly flicker and whatever instant/sorcery you wish from the yard, and repeat this loop infinitly. Thus creating an infinite number of flying spirit tokens with midnight haunting, an infinite number of human tokens with gather the townsfolk, or decking them with compulsive research.
God's willing helps protect the combo (haven't added much black reanimation or discard yet). Muddle lets you get cloud of faeries, and preordain and compulsive research help you put things together. There are a lot of control elements to help you survive until you can assemble the kill: journey to nowhere, shackles, stand/deliver, arrest, and murderous cut. The familiars also make excellent blockers
If you have both scrivener and mnemonic wall in play, than you can blink cloud of faeries for some arbitrarly immense sum of mana, and than switch to blinking scrivener and mnemonic wall, getting back ghostly flicker and whatever instant/sorcery you wish from the yard, and repeat this loop infinitly. Thus creating an infinite number of flying spirit tokens with midnight haunting, an infinite number of human tokens with gather the townsfolk, or decking them with compulsive research.
God's willing helps protect the combo (haven't added much black reanimation or discard yet). Muddle lets you get cloud of faeries, and preordain and compulsive research help you put things together. There are a lot of control elements to help you survive until you can assemble the kill: journey to nowhere, shackles, stand/deliver, arrest, and murderous cut. The familiars also make excellent blockers
Storm Combo-control test from CubeTutor.com
| | | | |
| ||||
| ||||
| ||||
Doesn't the idea of trying to keep it singleton help mitigate breaking singletons on things just for the sake of breaking singleton? It seems like you finally gave in just because the environment demanded it, not just because it's fun. (Then again, it seems like you could hold back no longer and went crazy on the doubling up, but I guess that is a way of probing what the effect would be).
edit: also, the bounceland shenanigans reminds me a lot of the bloom titan / amulet of vigor style decks in modern. I don't know how much can be lifted from that, but there might at least be a reference for how those style of decks actually play in reality.
edit again: another point I think can be made, is that you don't always have to have the relationship of "these cards play at this speed, thus dictate what lands are suitable for the format". You can just as easily have "we have this set of lands as the mana base for these decks, now how do these decks look and play given the speed of the lands?". We all played khans and most of us I believe had fun, and those lands come into play tapped. There isn't anything that says that a cube with ctp lands is just automatically boring, because that would mean no one have fun playing retail limited (which may or may not be actually true).
edit: also, the bounceland shenanigans reminds me a lot of the bloom titan / amulet of vigor style decks in modern. I don't know how much can be lifted from that, but there might at least be a reference for how those style of decks actually play in reality.
edit again: another point I think can be made, is that you don't always have to have the relationship of "these cards play at this speed, thus dictate what lands are suitable for the format". You can just as easily have "we have this set of lands as the mana base for these decks, now how do these decks look and play given the speed of the lands?". We all played khans and most of us I believe had fun, and those lands come into play tapped. There isn't anything that says that a cube with ctp lands is just automatically boring, because that would mean no one have fun playing retail limited (which may or may not be actually true).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I feel like breaking singleton, while generally better, carries with it its own costs:
1. You don't have to be dig as deep in your card searches, and might miss something great
2. Their is some risk, I think, of the format becoming too convergent. Breaking singleton can reduce the amount of cube space for drafters to explore, by cutting down on individual build around density.
I wanted to make it singleton initially because it makes the cube as a whole more accessable to a wider variety of players. Also, I had never done it before; its such a limitation though, and the results from the test drafts were unappealling to me.
When breaking singleton I tend to go just crazy off the bat; and its a bit like tuning a sideboard in constructed. I throw in multiples of everything that I think I need, then I realize that I have space limitations, way too many different matchups, that certain matchups are more importantly than others, and that the cards I select need to be more broadly applicable.
Its just helpful to get on the board everything that I think that I need, so that I can better see the overall picture.
-------
I made some changes to the auras section. I think the hexproof creatures are a bit of mistake as a whole. Besides being annoying to play against, they just seem boring to me. I replaced them with a bunch of creatures that are blockable only by creatures with power greater than theirs, thus rewarding pump and providing a density of synergy focused evasive guys in green. I also think there is a natural draw between green and white, due to the protection combat tricks in white.
I have those fertile ground/abundent growth effects in green, which are more enchantments, and provide a source of cheap ramp, card draw, and color fixing. They also provide a broader selection of targets for the disruptive bounce spells in blue.
I also started toying with the R/B goblins theme. Spikeshot elder and spikeshot goblin tie in with the aura's theme, and guttersnipe is another spells matter/storm kill condition. Marsh flitter and stenchskipper anchor it in black.
I want the deck to be able to go both wide and tall, and cards like nantuko husk seem to allow it to go tall, while goblin bushwaker lets it go wide. goblin sledder is probably going to be too narrow, which is a little disappointing.
Not sure if I want to be so one drop heavy though in red.
1. You don't have to be dig as deep in your card searches, and might miss something great
2. Their is some risk, I think, of the format becoming too convergent. Breaking singleton can reduce the amount of cube space for drafters to explore, by cutting down on individual build around density.
I wanted to make it singleton initially because it makes the cube as a whole more accessable to a wider variety of players. Also, I had never done it before; its such a limitation though, and the results from the test drafts were unappealling to me.
When breaking singleton I tend to go just crazy off the bat; and its a bit like tuning a sideboard in constructed. I throw in multiples of everything that I think I need, then I realize that I have space limitations, way too many different matchups, that certain matchups are more importantly than others, and that the cards I select need to be more broadly applicable.
Its just helpful to get on the board everything that I think that I need, so that I can better see the overall picture.
-------
I made some changes to the auras section. I think the hexproof creatures are a bit of mistake as a whole. Besides being annoying to play against, they just seem boring to me. I replaced them with a bunch of creatures that are blockable only by creatures with power greater than theirs, thus rewarding pump and providing a density of synergy focused evasive guys in green. I also think there is a natural draw between green and white, due to the protection combat tricks in white.
I have those fertile ground/abundent growth effects in green, which are more enchantments, and provide a source of cheap ramp, card draw, and color fixing. They also provide a broader selection of targets for the disruptive bounce spells in blue.
I also started toying with the R/B goblins theme. Spikeshot elder and spikeshot goblin tie in with the aura's theme, and guttersnipe is another spells matter/storm kill condition. Marsh flitter and stenchskipper anchor it in black.
I want the deck to be able to go both wide and tall, and cards like nantuko husk seem to allow it to go tall, while goblin bushwaker lets it go wide. goblin sledder is probably going to be too narrow, which is a little disappointing.
Not sure if I want to be so one drop heavy though in red.
One thing I noticed so far after doing some test drafts wad that there seem to be a lack of just cards that stand on their own and don't exist as archetype support. Sometimes I was looking into a pack with cards that just cared about stuff I wasn't drafting at all and suddenly things looked pretty grim. I think the format will end up more fun if there are more cards that CAN be slotted into a specificly themed deck but that also can help just get a deck together. Beaters in general I think is something I'm missing currently.
Edit: speaking of jank, you should totally run Refocus instead of like the 4th or 5th double-strike card. Refocus cantrips, untaps land-untappers, is a somewhat combat trick. It's looking sweet. Slots into both bounce shenanigans and spells matter.
Edit: speaking of jank, you should totally run Refocus instead of like the 4th or 5th double-strike card. Refocus cantrips, untaps land-untappers, is a somewhat combat trick. It's looking sweet. Slots into both bounce shenanigans and spells matter.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I've been feeding in some more generically applicable cards. Took out the frogmites as there is no reason really to run those when you can run legionnaires, vault skirges, and master's call in their place. Thoughtcast also came out for a courier's capsule. Took out the carapace forger as well.
Probably need to smooth out some of those token makers: there are a lot of them.
I am enjoying that feeling of having your picks really matter though.
Here is what I got btw when I went to draft that UG grow/ramp deck.
A ghostly flicker away from infinite nonsense, but I can still go off to make a huge quirion dryad in a turn.
Probably need to smooth out some of those token makers: there are a lot of them.
I am enjoying that feeling of having your picks really matter though.
Here is what I got btw when I went to draft that UG grow/ramp deck.
Test UG/b/w Grow from CubeTutor.com
| | | | | |
| |||||
| |||||
A ghostly flicker away from infinite nonsense, but I can still go off to make a huge quirion dryad in a turn.
Have you considered making more use of the blinking as a theme? I don't know if its something youve thought of already, but I like the idea of taking the bounceland combo themes' different parts and just having them function in the other themes as well. some of its there, with like the spells-matter theme and some of it being combat tricks as well as being just regular ramp. Maybe you can make it a bit less archetype-poisony with that. Rob Dennis charm-cube I feel uses a lot of cheap cards in a really nice and broad way, so maybe you can steal ideas from his cube (although there are some very different goals in mind, even though you both have similar tools at your disposal)
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I want to move onto the second draft, so I went through and trimmed cards that I thought I were questionable, or perhaps too narrow (with the possible exception of myr enforcer, which I want to see some more under draft conditions). Thank you to everyone that drafted a deck and provided feedback.
Goals at this point are too:
1. Smooth out the connections between themes
2. Develop the aggro archetypes a bit more.
3. Build up midrange/provide more benefits to ramping
4. Compact the list with cards that have overlap (e.g. armor of thornes).
When I get time, I'm going to edit the OP and provide an update here, as to where we are in terms of meeting design goals.
I think I'm going to look a little bit deeper with the flicker effects, since ghostly flicker can be card draw with ichor wellspring/prophetic prisim or mana fixing with mycosynth wellspring. It also has a lot of interesting uses with some of the ETB lands (teetering peaks ect.).
If their are any other cool interactions you can think of, let me know!
Goals at this point are too:
1. Smooth out the connections between themes
2. Develop the aggro archetypes a bit more.
3. Build up midrange/provide more benefits to ramping
4. Compact the list with cards that have overlap (e.g. armor of thornes).
When I get time, I'm going to edit the OP and provide an update here, as to where we are in terms of meeting design goals.
I think I'm going to look a little bit deeper with the flicker effects, since ghostly flicker can be card draw with ichor wellspring/prophetic prisim or mana fixing with mycosynth wellspring. It also has a lot of interesting uses with some of the ETB lands (teetering peaks ect.).
If their are any other cool interactions you can think of, let me know!
Flickering Creatures is kinda obvious, but if you included the cheaper flickers (even if not) there are some Mulldrifter/Other elementals shenanigans to be found. Evoke mulldrifter+Undying Evil being the classic pauper play. Walker of the Grove is kinda meh, but flickering him does achieve something.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Feeling really positive right now about the project. Added in some heroic guys for U/W, and that seems to work really well, tying together spells matter, combat tricks, and the + + counter theme. Really cool with the outlast guys. Added a really compact graveyard theme in the BUG colors, based around delve, skaabs, and thought scour. You can use cloud of faeries to cycle away to power the skaabs/delve. Blue feels very tempo-focused and interactive, but still with strong control plays. Ended up doubling up on defiant strike and archaeomancer (cutting scrivener, little bit too expensive for those decks).
Other major changes were that I added in a 4th set of dual lands to address fixing issues. Reworked the artifact theme, cut the enforcers (sadly) and added a bunch of interchangable artifact matters cards (gild is tech).
Here are some of the results after a few test drafts:
It was very satisfying to be able to run the somber hoverguard as a relatively late pick that folded naturally into the deck.
As for the grixis deck, it started as a control draft, that pivoted naturally into a combo-control deck. Also great to see.
It runs vault and dreams as general tutor pieces. It has a large number of control elements (mass, spot removal, and blockers), and can control the game until a darkblast or cycled cloud of faerie fueled mauler/scavenger comes into play as the deck's serra angels. Flicker works well with archaeomancer, cloud of faeries and young pyromancer to power out removal, card draw, board control, or mass removal. And by power out I mean generate large amounts of mana to jump the curve.
It can combo out using bouncelands + cloud of faeries+ harpy + rolling thunder; or via bouncelands + wall/mancer+ghostly flicker+win con. Guttersnipe, rolling thunder, or young pyromancer all can end the game at that point.
Other major changes were that I added in a 4th set of dual lands to address fixing issues. Reworked the artifact theme, cut the enforcers (sadly) and added a bunch of interchangable artifact matters cards (gild is tech).
Here are some of the results after a few test drafts:
U/W tempo from CubeTutor.com
| | | | |
| ||||
| ||||
U/W/r Artifact Tempo from CubeTutor.com
| | | | | |
| |||||
| |||||
Grixis Combo-Control from CubeTutor.com
| | | | | |
| |||||
It was very satisfying to be able to run the somber hoverguard as a relatively late pick that folded naturally into the deck.
As for the grixis deck, it started as a control draft, that pivoted naturally into a combo-control deck. Also great to see.
It runs vault and dreams as general tutor pieces. It has a large number of control elements (mass, spot removal, and blockers), and can control the game until a darkblast or cycled cloud of faerie fueled mauler/scavenger comes into play as the deck's serra angels. Flicker works well with archaeomancer, cloud of faeries and young pyromancer to power out removal, card draw, board control, or mass removal. And by power out I mean generate large amounts of mana to jump the curve.
It can combo out using bouncelands + cloud of faeries+ harpy + rolling thunder; or via bouncelands + wall/mancer+ghostly flicker+win con. Guttersnipe, rolling thunder, or young pyromancer all can end the game at that point.
I am going to guess that Loxodon Warhammer in GRBS in this format. Most of us cut it from our peasant cubes back in the day for not losing games. Grafted Wargear might be ok.
Also I recommend Jeskai Sage
I'd think I'd cut Boomerang for another Resounding Wave.
Cut Counterspell for something interesting.
Cut Lightning Bolt for Volt Charge
Project seems sweet.
Also I recommend Jeskai Sage
I'd think I'd cut Boomerang for another Resounding Wave.
Cut Counterspell for something interesting.
Cut Lightning Bolt for Volt Charge
Project seems sweet.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Thanks for the heads up; I cut it for a trusty machete. I'm guessing behemoth sledge is too much as well? I could just run a second unflinching courage.
That is looking pretty sweet. It seems like it's beginning to get those same levels of thematic layers that the Innistrad cube has. What is your current package of combat-trick creatures and spells matter creatures?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, its awesome the way the spells matter theme synergize so well with the heroic theme. The other great thing is that it makes storm so much less narrow, since you can cut clunky storm pieces like grapeshot, and replace them with more well-rounded cards like young pyromancer.
I'm not sure I'm answering your question fully, but these are my spells matter creatures:
Heroic Creatures (running three favored hoplite and 2 battlewise hoplite)
Creatures that are also buffs
I'm not sure I'm answering your question fully, but these are my spells matter creatures:
Heroic Creatures (running three favored hoplite and 2 battlewise hoplite)
Creatures that are also buffs
No no, that was pretty much what I was asking. It's nice to get an insight in what is the different pay-off cards for what is essentially the same group of interest cards that you invest in, during the draft. That is, the enabler cards cover two different kind of themes really nicely. Do you differentiate this heroic package with your initial idea of a pump-matters theme? I mean, the double strike stuff is equally interested in the pump as the heroic cards are.
I feel like these two are missing!
Also, which one of the following would you play? Slightly better pump or cantrip? (also wow, these two look great in hand now when I sleeved them. Its almost the same exact art! edit: bonus! flashback versus cantrips?
VS.
and
VS.
I feel like these two are missing!
Also, which one of the following would you play? Slightly better pump or cantrip? (also wow, these two look great in hand now when I sleeved them. Its almost the same exact art! edit: bonus! flashback versus cantrips?
VS. and
VS.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I had sort of a vague idea that there would be overlap, but I didn't anticipate the degree that it ties things together. I just like aggro decks that have a lot of play to them, and this isn't that dissimilar to the grow approach I already use with champion.
I've also been watching Tom Ross play UW heroic and infect, and I wanted to recreat that same feeling where the aggro player has the tools to escape from seemingly impossible situations and not just fizzle. The scry off of the battlewise hoplite, the ability to deal damage in huge chunks out of nowhere, and the card draw from some of the combat tricks all help with that. In addition, FSR runs a successful heroic theme, so thats really encouraging.
There is also the issue of critical turns. In Innistrad theme, the critical turn is turn 3, but here, things have to be a little bit slower to take into account bouncelands. It will be hard to tell for sure until I can take the cube through its paces, but these decks should be less lethal right out the gate, still deadly, but more on pace with the speed of the cube.
Basically, I'm just trying to hit a bunch of different aggro notes here.
I would play the cantrip. It lets those decks see more cards, and creates the possibility of chaining pump spells.
Fabled hero would make a lot of sense; but I am not sold yet on crusader. There are already a lot of effects that go wide, and the big benefit of something like favored hoplite is the ability to go taller off of a combat trick, build your own midrange dude, and not fizzle into the mid-game. Crusader seems too much like a sligh card to me.
Also, pressure point looks amazing, and I plan to add it to the list.
I've also been watching Tom Ross play UW heroic and infect, and I wanted to recreat that same feeling where the aggro player has the tools to escape from seemingly impossible situations and not just fizzle. The scry off of the battlewise hoplite, the ability to deal damage in huge chunks out of nowhere, and the card draw from some of the combat tricks all help with that. In addition, FSR runs a successful heroic theme, so thats really encouraging.
There is also the issue of critical turns. In Innistrad theme, the critical turn is turn 3, but here, things have to be a little bit slower to take into account bouncelands. It will be hard to tell for sure until I can take the cube through its paces, but these decks should be less lethal right out the gate, still deadly, but more on pace with the speed of the cube.
Basically, I'm just trying to hit a bunch of different aggro notes here.
I would play the cantrip. It lets those decks see more cards, and creates the possibility of chaining pump spells.
Fabled hero would make a lot of sense; but I am not sold yet on crusader. There are already a lot of effects that go wide, and the big benefit of something like favored hoplite is the ability to go taller off of a combat trick, build your own midrange dude, and not fizzle into the mid-game. Crusader seems too much like a sligh card to me.
Also, pressure point looks amazing, and I plan to add it to the list.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
hmmm...I did not know that card existed. Does it get played for the effect or for the color changing ability?
I'm currently 9 cards away in the multi-color section from having a completed 360, but not really sure what to run.
I added some artifact sac. effects into the af section to round things out as I felt that was a missing effect.
When I go into the first real life test session. Things for me to keep an eye on during gameplay:
1. Arifact/enchantment hate: I'm not really running targeted hate. I think this will be fine, since this cube seems to have a lot of incidental ways to hate on the largely aura based enchantments. Protection effects and bounce undue a lot of that work, and most of the artifacts play more of a support role.
2. Board Stalls: I don't really have a plethora of intimidate or other (non-flying) evasive creatures. Instead I have a lot of protection abilities to force damage through, as well as combat tricks to encourage bashing.
3. Mass Removal: The mass removal isn't true board wipes, so I don't think it will be oppressive, but I still need to see how this works out in a real draft to get an idea if its too strong or too weak. One of the draft decks I saw on cube tutor would just scoop to any sort of mass removal, which has me a little concerned.
This is where we seem to be on archetypes:
UW: heroic/tempo
UB: Control/self-mill
BR: goblin Sacrifice/value reanimator
RG: Midrange Pump/Ramp
GW: Auras/+ + Counters
BW: Value Blink/reanimator
UR: Spells Aggro-Combo/control
BG: Dredge/reanimation
RW: Wide Aggro/Control
GU: Ramp/self-mill
Just from a lot of the draft decks, it looks like there is a lot of variety even beyond this.
R: goblin aggro
W: white weenie aggro
G: midrange
U: tempo
B: Control
I don't really expect people to go into mono-colored decks, but if they do, thats what the colors will likely skew them towards.
Of the shard/wedges, the strongest pairings seem to be: Esper, Grixis, and BUG, due to how combo-control friendly they are. RWB seems like a natural token abuse deck, while RWU lends itself towards combo or tempo. I think that 3+ color combinations is a safe space to let player creativity dictate what exists, so its not important if this is not as well defined i.m.o. If I had more of a true multi-color cube, this might be a concern, but I don't think its an issue here.
Archetypes that did not survive the building process:
1. Fish: A disruptive-aggro deck built around merfolk, just did not cut it due to both the narrowness and cost of the cards.
2. Faeries: Another disruptive-aggro deck, the main problem with faeries is that its best disruptive piece is spellstutter sprite. Without print runs, its very difficult to create the density of copies needed for spellstutter to support a deck. Outside of pestermite, oona's prower, and marshflitter, the supporting faerie cast is either too weak (even at this low power level) or too narrow.
3. Affinity: Another victim of not having a print run. The affinity mechanic is just too narrow, and synergizes with nothing else.
4. Hexproof Aggro: Non-interactive cards, even when they are in the form of 1/1s, arn't fun in general. In addition, another narrow decktype, and not really needed anyway to create a sense of aura's matter.
I think this really drilled in to me the extent to which not having a print run differentiate cube from retail draft. MMA is perfectly fine running a heavy focus on individual archetypes as you are guaranteed a density of certain key individual cards; and there is thus more of a range between what is unacceptably narrow (infect) and what is permissibly narrow (affinity). In cube draft, the individual pieces have to be more flexible since you can't control how they will appear in packs.
One archtype that I would have liked to have seen would have been a UR artifact deck, using cards like trash for treasure. I didn't really have the space for that though. I also would have liked to have a few more blue auras, such as aqueous form, which may end up having to be fitted in regardless.
I'm currently 9 cards away in the multi-color section from having a completed 360, but not really sure what to run.
I added some artifact sac. effects into the af section to round things out as I felt that was a missing effect.
When I go into the first real life test session. Things for me to keep an eye on during gameplay:
1. Arifact/enchantment hate: I'm not really running targeted hate. I think this will be fine, since this cube seems to have a lot of incidental ways to hate on the largely aura based enchantments. Protection effects and bounce undue a lot of that work, and most of the artifacts play more of a support role.
2. Board Stalls: I don't really have a plethora of intimidate or other (non-flying) evasive creatures. Instead I have a lot of protection abilities to force damage through, as well as combat tricks to encourage bashing.
3. Mass Removal: The mass removal isn't true board wipes, so I don't think it will be oppressive, but I still need to see how this works out in a real draft to get an idea if its too strong or too weak. One of the draft decks I saw on cube tutor would just scoop to any sort of mass removal, which has me a little concerned.
This is where we seem to be on archetypes:
UW: heroic/tempo
UB: Control/self-mill
BR: goblin Sacrifice/value reanimator
RG: Midrange Pump/Ramp
GW: Auras/+ + Counters
BW: Value Blink/reanimator
UR: Spells Aggro-Combo/control
BG: Dredge/reanimation
RW: Wide Aggro/Control
GU: Ramp/self-mill
Just from a lot of the draft decks, it looks like there is a lot of variety even beyond this.
R: goblin aggro
W: white weenie aggro
G: midrange
U: tempo
B: Control
I don't really expect people to go into mono-colored decks, but if they do, thats what the colors will likely skew them towards.
Of the shard/wedges, the strongest pairings seem to be: Esper, Grixis, and BUG, due to how combo-control friendly they are. RWB seems like a natural token abuse deck, while RWU lends itself towards combo or tempo. I think that 3+ color combinations is a safe space to let player creativity dictate what exists, so its not important if this is not as well defined i.m.o. If I had more of a true multi-color cube, this might be a concern, but I don't think its an issue here.
Archetypes that did not survive the building process:
1. Fish: A disruptive-aggro deck built around merfolk, just did not cut it due to both the narrowness and cost of the cards.
2. Faeries: Another disruptive-aggro deck, the main problem with faeries is that its best disruptive piece is spellstutter sprite. Without print runs, its very difficult to create the density of copies needed for spellstutter to support a deck. Outside of pestermite, oona's prower, and marshflitter, the supporting faerie cast is either too weak (even at this low power level) or too narrow.
3. Affinity: Another victim of not having a print run. The affinity mechanic is just too narrow, and synergizes with nothing else.
4. Hexproof Aggro: Non-interactive cards, even when they are in the form of 1/1s, arn't fun in general. In addition, another narrow decktype, and not really needed anyway to create a sense of aura's matter.
I think this really drilled in to me the extent to which not having a print run differentiate cube from retail draft. MMA is perfectly fine running a heavy focus on individual archetypes as you are guaranteed a density of certain key individual cards; and there is thus more of a range between what is unacceptably narrow (infect) and what is permissibly narrow (affinity). In cube draft, the individual pieces have to be more flexible since you can't control how they will appear in packs.
One archtype that I would have liked to have seen would have been a UR artifact deck, using cards like trash for treasure. I didn't really have the space for that though. I also would have liked to have a few more blue auras, such as aqueous form, which may end up having to be fitted in regardless.
Looks quite good! It's awesome how many of the themes intertwine very nicely(like prowess+artifacts), the last deck I've drafted on Cubetutor shows that pretty well and is one of the most awesome decks I've ever drafted! Gotta love that cube, great work!
The Smith's have been a good addition as well. What are your thoughts on the fact that Chromatic Star is just better than Chromatic Sphere, especially regarding artifact sacrifices?
Also did you consider Train of Thought?? If aggro decks aren't performing as well as you wished, I'd consider adding another Bonesplitter as it's just the go-to equipment and I think I'll start with two when building this cube
Here's the deck:
The Smith's have been a good addition as well. What are your thoughts on the fact that Chromatic Star is just better than Chromatic Sphere, especially regarding artifact sacrifices?
Also did you consider Train of Thought?? If aggro decks aren't performing as well as you wished, I'd consider adding another Bonesplitter as it's just the go-to equipment and I think I'll start with two when building this cube
Here's the deck:
White Swarm Recycling from CubeTutor.com
| | | | |
| ||||
| ||||
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I would be ok with running 6 stars rather than a 3 star 3 sphere split. I was running sphere to keep things diverse, but it might be correct to just run 6 stars.
I also cut pressure point in favor of a second auriok salvagers. Point seems like a solid card, but thats about it. Auriok salvagers seems like a really fun brewing piece, and is sort of the "egg tribe lord." If I wanted to encourage the theme more, I could run some more prowess creatures. I think at least one more is probably correct, though things are at least acceptable as they are.
I also cut nettle sentinel for a basking rootwalla. Rootwalla synergizes with a number of the discard and graveyard themes, while still being a one-drop and respectable beater. Sentinel is a good card, but would fit better in a different green section, one focused more on elf tribal, something for which I did not have room. Commune with the gods came in as a more flexible replacement for mulch.
Love the deck; really creative, and a great fusion of multiple themes. I also really liked the grixis combo deck.
I also cut pressure point in favor of a second auriok salvagers. Point seems like a solid card, but thats about it. Auriok salvagers seems like a really fun brewing piece, and is sort of the "egg tribe lord." If I wanted to encourage the theme more, I could run some more prowess creatures. I think at least one more is probably correct, though things are at least acceptable as they are.
I also cut nettle sentinel for a basking rootwalla. Rootwalla synergizes with a number of the discard and graveyard themes, while still being a one-drop and respectable beater. Sentinel is a good card, but would fit better in a different green section, one focused more on elf tribal, something for which I did not have room. Commune with the gods came in as a more flexible replacement for mulch.
Love the deck; really creative, and a great fusion of multiple themes. I also really liked the grixis combo deck.