Card/Deck Token/Sacrifice themes in Red

[ahadabans]

To be fair though, Mortarpod comes down a turn earlier, when you actually might want to kill a 1-toughness creature, and comes with a free red shirt. It was a sweet, sweet limited card in its time (3 years already?), in part though because it worked so well with infect. If you run enough X/1's and support a sacrifice theme I suspect it's one of the better options still.

There are other scenarios too where the card is randomly better than it looks. Like one time where I used it as fodder for a braids. For 2 mana, I got two things to sacrifice to it which carried me to victory (while my opponent was sacing shit that mattered). I've also used it to pump a dude while pyroclasming the board (it gives +1 toughness when equipped which many don't even realize).

That type of stuff is clearly not going to come up every game, but it's all stuff blasting station can't do (even if the station is more efficient).

One thing that I think is very true in Cube and less true in some other formats is how valuable having options/answers is. Every card that comes down is potential game warping. Not sure how many rares/mythics make up the typical cube, but I'm well over 50% I think. Every card that gets played is potentially something that has to be answered quickly or you just lose. So even inefficient removal options are playable a lot of times. I'm all about losing two tokens and wasting 4 mana to kill Sower if he stole my win condition. It just needs to happen at whatever cost because I will flat out lose if it doesn't. At that point 6 mana is a fair price if it's the difference between still being in the game and just dying next turn.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

It’s really amazing how different our experiences can be with the same cards. For us, blasting station wasn't ever really a card. Mortapod has been ok, it sees play but its impact in games has been pretty marginal. It helps that it comes with something to sacrifice, and it provides another sacrifice trigger, but I agree that it is a bit slow.

Now, I’m honestly baffled (and intrigued) by the variance in experience with gargadon. I would think creature decks would want it as sweeper insurance, de facto reach, and another one drop; while sacrifice decks would want it as a high impact sac. outlet.

Is some of your aggro so buffed that it’s a better strategy to just win now and rely on burn rather than play gargadon? Or is it that GG served a role as a high impact incentive card to get people into drafting the archetype, and now that it’s established, you can phase it out with more nuanced sac. outlets?

 

[ahadabans]

I have to agree on Gargadon. That card makes me want to play a red deck. It's awesome. It was even more broken when I still ran balance, but even without it it's still amazing. Stuff dies all the time, so Gargadon almost always has food. It comes into play pretty fast. I can't imagine its too slow even in hyper cubes. And I suspect in the cases where it's too slow, it's because you are winning that game (i.e. your opponent hasn't answered anything you played).

 

[Jason Waddell]

Blasting Station only works because you can recur Gravecrawler and Bloodghast over and over for free basically. I've had games where I played a Turn 5 Primeval Titan and the next turn the dude killed it with Blasting Station.

 

[Eric Chan]

Not to mention it can dome someone out pretty efficiently. Especially in concert with a Blood Artist! These synergy decks often just want to interact outside of the red zone, once that's no longer a profitable option.

I think it's mostly that the optimal sac outlets do something right then and there, for each usage. Waiting a couple of turns for a larger payout - that may or may not be better than a few points worth of reach - doesn't always cut the mustard in faster environments.

 

[MCMcEmcee]

You can stoneforge for mortarpod, and it has some synergy with stuff like flickerwisp or uw venser. Also playable as a removal spell of sorts without other synergies. Not great but it's playable.
Also works well with deathtouch (and lifelink)

 

[Chris Taylor]

Mortarpod is like blasting station but almost playable on it's own.

I find it's a lot more fair, and actually impacts the board. Less of a ceiling, but still good.

 

[ahadabans]

You can stoneforge for mortarpod, and it has some synergy with stuff like flickerwisp or uw venser. Also playable as a removal spell of sorts without other synergies. Not great but it's playable.
Also works well with deathtouch (and lifelink)

Good call actually. I just yanked stoneforge though after I gutted the broken equipment (Jitte and friends). Still, I think removal in almost any form is playable in cube. It has to be wretchedly bad to truly be unplayable.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Mortarpod can also block.

I feel like we've formed a mortarpod self help group.

 

[Konge]

After Skype confirming to me that cutting Spikeshot Elder would indeed make me a terrible person, I looked hard at the red section and ended up shelling out for an Alpha Orcish Oriflamme (1R) and going for a token subtheme. We rarely play more than 4-5 players, so pure red decks come together rather seldom. I'm sure this is a factor as to why Spikeshot never really got rolling, so this is an effort to make red more attractive when paired up with other colors. Tokens permeate more and more of the other colors, and it seems like a nice fit for red. Off the top of my head I'm looking to add:



Perhaps Legion Loyalist and Instigator Gang as well? Now, the question is. What to cut? (http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/4073) I don't like crippling RDW completely. So I'm thinking something along the lines of:



Any suggestions as to further additions or cuts? (Or some proposed cuts which would shouldn't be). More sac outlets? More token producers?

EDIT: Right, seems like I cut Hell's Thunder recently, that's going back in as well.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Uh, yeah, there's one person who is a bit dogmatic about Spikeshot Elder but that doesn't mean you're not free to ignore their advice.

 

[Konge]

I've had it in my cube since the very beginning, so that's a good indication that I've always seen it's potential. However, it just hasn't come together recently. At least that's been a catalyst for the hard look at red as a whole, and I do think it's moved too far into pure RDW territory. My previous attempt to make it a better support color was by including Squee, Earthquake, and such, but that hasn't worked according to plan. Ever since the competition which led me to this site in the first place, where I argued for multiple Young Pyros, red tokens has been at the back of my mind. Goblin Rabblemaster and the 1R Oriflamme made me think of it again. Once red gets some other options besides RDW, I'm sure Spikeshot will return to the spotlight once in a while.

 

[Jason Waddell]

One thing to keep in mind is that the fewer players you play with, the harder you have to push themes you support (and, generally, the fewer themes that you can support). Not seeing 360 cards in a draft makes a huge difference.

The end result is that context-dependent cards like Squee and Wildfire will be played less. I'm not really sure what the answer is.

 

[GenericZero]

Spikeshot Elder should be fine with a bit more support behind him. Have you considered running some dudes with Battlecry to go along with the 1R Oriflamme? Perhaps with enough incidental good goblin cards, you could run a lord for goblins? Is Goblin Chieftain any good? Are there even any Goblin cards in other colors that are worthwhile? Anything that even assists goblins incidentally outside of red?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Uh, yeah, there's one person who is a bit dogmatic about Spikeshot Elder but that doesn't mean you're not free to ignore their advice.

Hey man, two people! I just haven't been on skype.

 

[Eric Chan]

Spikeshot Elder is awful. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Spikeshot Elder is awful. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

Dude he actually seems pretty good in your list. Between triple bonesplitter, basalisk collar, madcap skills, rancor, curse of predation, Loxodon Warhammer (!) and random other cards like Griffin Guide, anthems and Crystaline Nautalus, he seems fine.

He wouldn't be the first card ever added to cube that needed a bit of help to be incredible. Goblin Bombardment is the shittiest burn spell on the planet, but it gets insane if you have tokens or recurring guys around.

At least spikeshot elder knocks vendillion clique/flickerwisp out of the way and does some attacking.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, as I explained in the Skype thread, I'm guilty of a bit of exaggeration and hyperbole here. He takes a bit of work to make worthwhile, so he isn't the ideal candidate to toss into a random high-power list while hoping for the best. Cubes with heavier aura and equipment themes, though, seem like better homes for his skillset.

For now, I'm sticking with the tried and true crack shot, Cunning Sparkmage. But don't let my curmudgeonly ways stop you guys from experimenting.

 

[James Stevenson]

Spikeshot Elder is one of those cards I've never seen do anything, but stays in the cube because 2 people on riptidelab will think less of me if I take it out.

 

[MCMcEmcee]

Spikeshot did a whole lot of nothing for too long, despite a bunch of good equipment and such to help him out. When it works out, it's great... except that it more or less locks the other guy out of playing creatures for the rest of the game? Dunno what's so appealing about "terrible except when it kills everything" when Spikeshot isn't even like a cool enabler for various themes. He's just another dorky 1 drop that needs equipment to scale into the late game.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I really haven't seen Spikeshot do anything in a format that wasn't SOM limited. It's one of those "best case scenario" cards that we all love to dream about. I even was guilty of this, writing in one article something about "suiting up a Spikeshot with Adventuring Gear, cracking a fetch and nuking a Baneslayer", but I never saw such a thing happen.

I'm not sure how you'd change the design either to make it "balanced". Feels like the type of card that very quickly becomes OP with some subtle tweaks.

 

[CML]

I really haven't seen Spikeshot do anything in a format that wasn't SOM limited. It's one of those "best case scenario" cards that we all love to dream about. I even was guilty of this, writing in one article something about "suiting up a Spikeshot with Adventuring Gear, cracking a fetch and nuking a Baneslayer", but I never saw such a thing happen.

I'm not sure how you'd change the design either to make it "balanced". Feels like the type of card that very quickly becomes OP with some subtle tweaks.

RR activations may fix it

 

[MCMcEmcee]

I've assembled spikeshot + wargear too many times to count and I still didn't keep spikeshot after my first big riplab inspired update

 

[CML]

I've assembled spikeshot + wargear too many times to count and I still didn't keep spikeshot after my first big riplab inspired update

i'm throwing it in again because bestow. it will not wrok

one of the more memorable gamestates involved my having a lock with spikeshot and lightning greaves, except i couldn't get it to do more than 1 because i didn't have another creature so i could switch off the greaves and switch on runechanter's pike (this was some time ago) and switch back on greaves. times have changed!

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Has this been mentioned already? Triggers purphoros and battledriver as well as pushing RDW