Article [Top 8] Missed Design Opportunities: Multicolor Edition
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah I think he would have been really not fun if he had the kind of mana cost you could turbo out.
I mean, just imagine he costs 5 and you go elf > farseek on the play: Your opponent has 2 lands and no hand.
There's a reason he is where he is, and I have a feeling the 4 thoughness was a conceit to making him actually killable in block, since he dodges ultimate price and would dodge mortars/warleader's helix.
List of comprehensive answers in block if Sire was a 5/5:
Explosive Impact
Grisly Spectacle
Launch Party
Putrefy
Selesnya Charm
Trostani's Judgment
And conditional answers:
Far // Away
Devour flesh
Dreadbore
I mean, just imagine he costs 5 and you go elf > farseek on the play: Your opponent has 2 lands and no hand.
There's a reason he is where he is, and I have a feeling the 4 thoughness was a conceit to making him actually killable in block, since he dodges ultimate price and would dodge mortars/warleader's helix.
List of comprehensive answers in block if Sire was a 5/5:
Explosive Impact
Grisly Spectacle
Launch Party
Putrefy
Selesnya Charm
Trostani's Judgment
And conditional answers:
Far // Away
Devour flesh
Dreadbore
VibeBox
Contributor
it would certainly have to be a mythic to get an appropriate power level boost. it just would have been nice to see that option employed here. i had imaged something in a much smaller body, a 2/2 for 1RBB would be interesting, and yeah it's pretty damn strong but it would be a far more interesting card in terms of format shaping. it can be dangerous, but such things sometimes turn out archetype definers, but it requires a certain prioritizing of formats with a little more memory like Modern or Cube.
to be fair though, i know that they only have so much space and have to make decisions about what gets the "mythic push" and what doesn't. sire was easily the weakest part of the segments though, and in retrospect i wish i had gone with the putrefy reprint as an opportunity to make interesting removal instead of showcasing the card they had just outclassed with the printing of abrupt decay.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Doesn't putrefy still see standard play though?
More than abrupt decay even? I'm not too up to date with the hippty hop
More than abrupt decay even? I'm not too up to date with the hippty hop
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Eh, sometimes you don't need that newness. I love the new art, and if it's doing good things for standard, let em have it 
Shmutrefy might have come across as "Really, another green black removal spell? Cubes have access to what, four now?" rather than "Oh man, I remember this card!"
And back on topic, I think if Sire had got the "Mythic Push" the game would have been worse for it, since he's so close to being just a not fun card.
Shmutrefy might have come across as "Really, another green black removal spell? Cubes have access to what, four now?" rather than "Oh man, I remember this card!"
And back on topic, I think if Sire had got the "Mythic Push" the game would have been worse for it, since he's so close to being just a not fun card.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Eh, I really like Sire as is.
Love the ideas behind this article but I've gotta tell ya, Augermage saw standard play. There were sick rakdos decks to be had back when jitte abuse midrange and glare were on top. I don't think it was just me either, I remember taking it to a couple FNMs instead of boros aggro and then seeing some rb burn decks and black splash red decks on starcity lists of showings.
Augermage, and to a lesser extent, lyzolda are cards I'm really sad aren't cubable. I guess Augermage's casting cost is one issue but it is also just doesn't slide in under the radar in time to do his thing in eternal formats. Lyzolda just felt so good hanging out on your end of the table with 2 mana up. With those girls in your deck you felt like you had total inevitability on your opponent. Both cards made dealing with opposing jittes way more profitable too, but the game was more complicated with damage stacking and the like back then.
Anyway enough of this trip down memory lane, I just wanted to defend a card you seemed to think was a dismal failure, but in fact was quite an interesting and fun card to play. Man did those cards ever make aggro really fun and full of decisions. I can see how you could imagine it as a bit of a abomination of compromises but I think most people who poop all over it have never played it in a deck it should be in (few and far between I guess).
As a person who likes to design cards, these missed opportunities and conservative compromises also tend to limit my fun and the ideas you get to imagine because for some reason people tend to cling to these awful standards and not really look past that into weighing impact.
Anyway special treat:
3x Plagued Rusalka
4x Frenzied Goblin
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hand of Cruelty
4x Rakdos Guildmage
4x Rakdos Augermage
2x Lyzolda, Blood Witch
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Seal of Fire
4x Char
4x Bloodcrypt
4xSufurous Springs
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Shinka, the Blood Soaked Keep
2x mountain
10x swamp
then I was always subbing in either a swamp, a copy of lyzolda or a volcanic hammar.
Augermage, and to a lesser extent, lyzolda are cards I'm really sad aren't cubable. I guess Augermage's casting cost is one issue but it is also just doesn't slide in under the radar in time to do his thing in eternal formats. Lyzolda just felt so good hanging out on your end of the table with 2 mana up. With those girls in your deck you felt like you had total inevitability on your opponent. Both cards made dealing with opposing jittes way more profitable too, but the game was more complicated with damage stacking and the like back then.
Anyway enough of this trip down memory lane, I just wanted to defend a card you seemed to think was a dismal failure, but in fact was quite an interesting and fun card to play. Man did those cards ever make aggro really fun and full of decisions. I can see how you could imagine it as a bit of a abomination of compromises but I think most people who poop all over it have never played it in a deck it should be in (few and far between I guess).
As a person who likes to design cards, these missed opportunities and conservative compromises also tend to limit my fun and the ideas you get to imagine because for some reason people tend to cling to these awful standards and not really look past that into weighing impact.
Anyway special treat:
3x Plagued Rusalka
4x Frenzied Goblin
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hand of Cruelty
4x Rakdos Guildmage
4x Rakdos Augermage
2x Lyzolda, Blood Witch
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Seal of Fire
4x Char
4x Bloodcrypt
4xSufurous Springs
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Shinka, the Blood Soaked Keep
2x mountain
10x swamp
then I was always subbing in either a swamp, a copy of lyzolda or a volcanic hammar.
VibeBox
Contributor
oh no, no! he's not a dismal failure at all! in the article i call him a "middling contender" for cube space in Rakdos. with the power level of all the options involved that still leaves it a formidable card that certainly saw play in its time, but falls far short of the benchmark card it could have been ala dark confidant
agreedo
cool deck. i remember the Block Constructed "hand in hand" lists that looked like this but they ran white instead of the red. cool to see a standard evolution of that.[/quote]
For those of you not down on boosting Sire of Insanity that like to do custom cards (Chris, Lucas), is there a redesign of that type of card that would be both more powerful and more fun?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah it's called Liliana of the veil
Though he's pretty sweet in his current iteration. I think brad nelson nailed it in their set review: "We had all these control decks eeking out incremental advantages and fighting over huge sphinx's revalations, now it's just like WHAM, Sire, now we're both in topdeck mode."
Though he's pretty sweet in his current iteration. I think brad nelson nailed it in their set review: "We had all these control decks eeking out incremental advantages and fighting over huge sphinx's revalations, now it's just like WHAM, Sire, now we're both in topdeck mode."
It's funny, this whole conversation reminds me of that deck because of the mindslicers in the sideboard hahahaha.
I thought having boring decks with huge bombs in topdeck mode was sorta what this format was all about. Jund seems to love it. Reanimators are always looking for that card they need to play a mulch or whatever to get things going. Even snapcaster is a topdeck mode card, with him around, it's not as if you need cards in hand to unlock a bunch of spells... you just need to get to your next snapcaster. I guess revelation wars kinda look similar to that to me too. Like between prime, garruk and revelations, you are still just trying to play more bombs than your enemy. Big obvious tap down style plays! Yaaaaaaay midranged!
I'm gonna put some thought into it. It feels like the sort of card that if you make better, it becomes a real problem. I think it's suffering from the same problem ruric thar is right now, that you need to be doing something really special to warrant paying six mana for you, and the special something has to be guaranteed relevant by the turn it's likely to come down. Sire is certainly a card you could scale down, but would you want that in your format?
I thought having boring decks with huge bombs in topdeck mode was sorta what this format was all about. Jund seems to love it. Reanimators are always looking for that card they need to play a mulch or whatever to get things going. Even snapcaster is a topdeck mode card, with him around, it's not as if you need cards in hand to unlock a bunch of spells... you just need to get to your next snapcaster. I guess revelation wars kinda look similar to that to me too. Like between prime, garruk and revelations, you are still just trying to play more bombs than your enemy. Big obvious tap down style plays! Yaaaaaaay midranged!
I'm gonna put some thought into it. It feels like the sort of card that if you make better, it becomes a real problem. I think it's suffering from the same problem ruric thar is right now, that you need to be doing something really special to warrant paying six mana for you, and the special something has to be guaranteed relevant by the turn it's likely to come down. Sire is certainly a card you could scale down, but would you want that in your format?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah that's basically my idea too.
Can you imagine if Ruric Thar was like a 3/4? (and dealt 3 damage, obv)
Can you imagine if Ruric Thar was like a
3/4? (and dealt 3 damage, obv)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
You know, neo augermage might not be bad
At the beginning of your end step, augermage? Might be cool
At the beginning of your end step, augermage? Might be cool
I disagree with all but Rakdos Augermage and Vanish into Memory here (and partially with Cloven Casting because 5 or 6 would be a good casting cost). I disagree mostly because I play these cards in other formats than on their cube evaluations and in their respective formats they are very well positioned.
Heck, you could even say that Supreme Veredict was a hidden blessing to cubes because you could guarantee that control decks have access to a wrath effect that nobody else would play (a wrath that dodges Mana Tithe from weenie rush decks, even!) instead of using regular wrath variants that can be easily sideboarded in midrange x builds and occupying a spot that could be used for another spell for white noncontrolish strategies.
Both Warleader's Helix and Grull Ragebeast are well positioned in DGR as a very good removal and an interesting finisher for high-end green decks. In limited especially, it seems that the difference between 3 and 4 toughness is huge. My main concern here is that Ragebeast is not a legend, as RG beasts needs a non-Uril general ASAP.
Lord of Extinction and Cloven Casting are casual cards that are great in commander. LoE because it is beastly huge in a format and colors that recursion is king and CC because it is an interesting build-around effect that might help some thematic commanders (its cool because it makes players think about how to abuse it more than because of raw power). The lord was auto-included in my grave cube because it is so huge and is awesome in low-removal environments. It's also a role player in my Mimeoplasm commander, where it combos with my general and Triskellion for insta-kills if the game goes too long.
Sire of Extinction is perfectly costed for standard. If it were any cheaper, controlish decks wouldn't be able to do a thing (Cavern of Souls for demon is a thing even with cmc6). I have it in my test pool for my regular cube to see how much of an effect he has. I don't think it would be better as a 5/5. 6/4 is enough to be a big thread and not enough for you to play/attack blindly. I've also can't get mad at it because I had two cool stories about this guy last friday: Opposing Sire blocking my Rurik Thar in a draft, making it a huge-risk-high-reward play to stop my creature and enabling a comeback on a very thigh game(we had already split the prize on this one, so we were playing just for fun). Also, in a standard tournament, in the third game of the match, I had an opponent cast a Sire against my (borrowed) Junk Rites only to see me discard Angel of Serenity and Rites of Unburial. This prompted store-wide laughter and mockery upon my opponent, which would've won the match if he had played anything else or even sideboarded it out.
I remember both Rakdos Augermage and Vanish into Memory having fringe standard play on their time, but neither has an excuse for being so crappy as they were an Invitational and a community-created card.
Heck, you could even say that Supreme Veredict was a hidden blessing to cubes because you could guarantee that
control decks have access to a wrath effect that nobody else would play (a wrath that dodges Mana Tithe from weenie rush decks, even!) instead of using regular wrath variants that can be easily sideboarded in midrange x builds and occupying a spot that could be used for another spell for white noncontrolish strategies.Both Warleader's Helix and Grull Ragebeast are well positioned in DGR as a very good removal and an interesting finisher for high-end green decks. In limited especially, it seems that the difference between 3 and 4 toughness is huge. My main concern here is that Ragebeast is not a legend, as RG beasts needs a non-Uril general ASAP.
Lord of Extinction and Cloven Casting are casual cards that are great in commander. LoE because it is beastly huge in a format and colors that recursion is king and CC because it is an interesting build-around effect that might help some thematic commanders (its cool because it makes players think about how to abuse it more than because of raw power). The lord was auto-included in my grave cube because it is so huge and is awesome in low-removal environments. It's also a role player in my Mimeoplasm commander, where it combos with my general and Triskellion for insta-kills if the game goes too long.
Sire of Extinction is perfectly costed for standard. If it were any cheaper, controlish decks wouldn't be able to do a thing (Cavern of Souls for demon is a thing even with cmc6). I have it in my test pool for my regular cube to see how much of an effect he has. I don't think it would be better as a 5/5. 6/4 is enough to be a big thread and not enough for you to play/attack blindly. I've also can't get mad at it because I had two cool stories about this guy last friday: Opposing Sire blocking my Rurik Thar in a draft, making it a huge-risk-high-reward play to stop my creature and enabling a comeback on a very thigh game(we had already split the prize on this one, so we were playing just for fun). Also, in a standard tournament, in the third game of the match, I had an opponent cast a Sire against my (borrowed) Junk Rites only to see me discard Angel of Serenity and Rites of Unburial. This prompted store-wide laughter and mockery upon my opponent, which would've won the match if he had played anything else or even sideboarded it out.
I remember both Rakdos Augermage and Vanish into Memory having fringe standard play on their time, but neither has an excuse for being so crappy as they were an Invitational and a community-created card.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
(Quoted relevant chunks)
Basically the opposing argument to this entire rant is "It's EDH, nobody cares."
I kinda care, but the format has been known to play the worst horrible cards wizards produces anyway, why do they need special attention cards which make the format worse?
Primal Surge, Enter the Infinite, Omniscience, Worldfire etc
every one of those cards has been laser targeted at EDH players, and anyone who plays EDH either uses them or hates them. (Or they've essentially been pre-banned)
Playable in EDH has about as much impact on a card's design as the fucking artwork
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Something being playable in EDH is a mark against it in my book.
Vanish Into Memory is the only card on this list that's really a design failure in my book, as it feels clumsy and non-intuitive. Honestly, I think the rest of the cards have great designs. They do what you think their respective color pairs would best team up to do. Abstractly comparing them against "what could have been" is going to lead to a lot of disappointment. And frankly, an article that consists mostly of criticism can really be a turn-off. A much more interesting article might be where you instead challenge yourself to balance your cube to make these sweet designs desirable.
Development is the team responsible for tweaking "the numbers" on cards - Mana, P/T, etc. And honestly, I can't say that I blame them for costing everything like they did, or the standard environments they lived in would be a much different place.
Warleader's Helix was originally going to be a straight up reprint of Lightning Helix, and late in development, after the art had been commissioned, development realized that they didn't want the card to show up in Standard at this time. So they had to make a new card, but keep the art already commissioned. Because the art was clearly evocative of the original, they really had no other option than to make a variant.
Development is the team responsible for tweaking "the numbers" on cards - Mana, P/T, etc. And honestly, I can't say that I blame them for costing everything like they did, or the standard environments they lived in would be a much different place.
Warleader's Helix was originally going to be a straight up reprint of Lightning Helix, and late in development, after the art had been commissioned, development realized that they didn't want the card to show up in Standard at this time. So they had to make a new card, but keep the art already commissioned. Because the art was clearly evocative of the original, they really had no other option than to make a variant.
Hmm...but isn't the coolest thing about building Cubes that we can tailor the environment the way we want? What exactly do we gain by dismissing cards "because commander"? Deckbuilding and playtesting for EDH in pretty much a focus exercise that helps you learn about new cards, mechanics and their interactions in a very focused way and lets you iterate on some themes and card combinations with an ease that wouldn't be possible by playing cube alone (mostly because of drafting and deckbuilding taking too much time).
And it's not like every card would ever be constructed/limited playable anyways. Look at how much chaff we got before Alara, when the set sizes were much bigger. Those big mana crazy effects that you have pointed have existed for far too long to be commander-specific. By the time Biorhythm and Time Stretch were designed, there wasn't even an EDH scene to cater to. At least there is an 'official' format that accepts playing with low-power/high-fun cards now, otherwise we would be opening the same chaff with the exception that people wouldn't be able to point to specific demographics and blame them for those cards existing.
I believe that our Cubes have a lot to learn from Commander if we are to fully utilize our potential as designers. I'll see if I can organize my thoughts on this matter and write something cohesive in the near future.
I agree with this. Good luck finding a cube environment that fully utilizes Cloven Casting
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Absolutly nothing. That's why people hate it
Nothing but the social contract keeps people from just bringing vintage combo decks to the table each week, and I've delibratly had to power decks down to keep games fun.
EG: my General, because I never got to play with Bloodbraid elf.
Intentional Exclusions:
Anything that takes an extra turn
Any tutors
These specific tutors
Any brainstorm variant
This all to keep some dumb ramp deck without any countermagic or reasonable sweepers FAIR.