Article Top 8 Most Oppressive Cube Cards
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
CML, I love the way you write and I love the things you say. Props, bro.
Anybody here enjoyed playing with Jace TMS? I've played him in only one draft ever, in a friend's cube. I actually really enjoyed using him, though I dunno if my opponents had any fun. Actually it was a testament to the power of Jitte that I had Jace and Contract from Below and he had Jitte and we still had a close game.
Anybody here enjoyed playing with Jace TMS? I've played him in only one draft ever, in a friend's cube. I actually really enjoyed using him, though I dunno if my opponents had any fun. Actually it was a testament to the power of Jitte that I had Jace and Contract from Below and he had Jitte and we still had a close game.
I run Jace and everybody loves him. He's a fun and skill testing card, and very beatable. Players would enjoy my cube less with Jace removed.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
^that
CML
Contributor
I haven't tried JTMS in my Cube, Beleren is nuts in mine though so i'm a little hesitant. (memory adept is an obvious exclusion, while architect of thought is most likely kind of bad)
I didn't put jace on the list because of the stuff you guys wrote above
glad you guys liked this!
I didn't put jace on the list because of the stuff you guys wrote above
glad you guys liked this!
Everyone who’s Cubed has had the experience of playing a haymaker and apologizing as a game, which once held the promise of decisions, depth, and interaction, degenerates into a one-sided slugfest.
Love the short, sweet, and punchy article, and especially that quote. It's all too true.
... I'm tempted to throw big papa Jace back into my cube. What could possibly go wrong?
Love the short, sweet, and punchy article, and especially that quote. It's all too true.
... I'm tempted to throw big papa Jace back into my cube. What could possibly go wrong?
Rob Dennis
Developer
I might quibble about particular choices, but the overall sentiment of "cube should have a ban list, and one that you came up with to help your playgroup" is one that can really get behind.
I'm generally very con on top X cards that do Y, but this one was good, so that's saying a bit
I'm generally very con on top X cards that do Y, but this one was good, so that's saying a bit
Quibble away. Top X lists leave lots of room for quibbling.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Loved the talk about maze 
I once played a cube game where my opponent mulled to 6, played T1 Maze of Ith and cast his first spell on Turn 5 (Wrath of God) and won without any real effort. Hooray for having to overcommit to push damage through Maze then get punished into oblivion by one spell.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Icy Manipulator is the fair maze of ith, though it could probably cost 3 these days.
What are people's opionions on Upheaval? After my team won 2 Matches we had no business winning in our first draft everyone agreed it should be cut. Of course in Multiplayer it can be much worse than in 1vs1. In one game my teammate had an Obzedat phased out. I had nothing but 6 lands. I cast Upheaval and we won that game easily.
I'm still running a lot of the cards from this Top 8 list. (All but Moat and Black Vise) I think it helps that in Emperor you're more likely to find an answer in time. In a recent session with a friend's cube the emperor of my team played basically nothing all removal, artifact destruction and draw. It helps when your deck doesn't need a lot of threats. I might still be better of cutting them but getting to play with cards like Jitte was also a big draw to starting a cube in the first place..
I'm still running a lot of the cards from this Top 8 list. (All but Moat and Black Vise) I think it helps that in Emperor you're more likely to find an answer in time. In a recent session with a friend's cube the emperor of my team played basically nothing all removal, artifact destruction and draw. It helps when your deck doesn't need a lot of threats. I might still be better of cutting them but getting to play with cards like Jitte was also a big draw to starting a cube in the first place..
Yeah, multiplayer is a whole different beast. I can imagine it's way easier to abuse Upheaval there.
I think a lot of these cards were a draw at first, but eventually the honeymoon phase ended and I started to see things in a different light.
I think a lot of these cards were a draw at first, but eventually the honeymoon phase ended and I started to see things in a different light.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Balance is the worst card ever printed. I suppose it might only be the 6th worst cube card ever printed, but I doubt it.
I'd like to put in an honorable mention to the other sort of oppressive card: the blatantly over efficient. These cards don't completely stop the opponent from playing the game, but they give advantages to one player so unconditionally and/or at low cost, that it doesn't matter, you just win anyway.
This is where your moxes (other people pay 2 mana to ramp up, but not you! For you, that privilege is free), sol rings (see above, but better), ancestral recall (other people pay multiple mana to get a one card advantage, you get two cards at instant speed for being willing to spend a single blue mana), timewalk (when you spend two mana to ramp up, you get your mana back! And a combat phase! And another planeswalker activation! And. . .), mana drain (2 op blue mana shouldn't just counter a spell. Don't you know blue mana is better then every other color?), Mind Twist and balance (the flexibility of mindtwist, wraith of god and Armageddon in one card at half the cost!) all come in. I also put your manavault/black lotus/grim monoliths here.
I'd like to put in an honorable mention to the other sort of oppressive card: the blatantly over efficient. These cards don't completely stop the opponent from playing the game, but they give advantages to one player so unconditionally and/or at low cost, that it doesn't matter, you just win anyway.
This is where your moxes (other people pay 2 mana to ramp up, but not you! For you, that privilege is free), sol rings (see above, but better), ancestral recall (other people pay multiple mana to get a one card advantage, you get two cards at instant speed for being willing to spend a single blue mana), timewalk (when you spend two mana to ramp up, you get your mana back! And a combat phase! And another planeswalker activation! And. . .), mana drain (2 op blue mana shouldn't just counter a spell. Don't you know blue mana is better then every other color?), Mind Twist and balance (the flexibility of mindtwist, wraith of god and Armageddon in one card at half the cost!) all come in. I also put your manavault/black lotus/grim monoliths here.
Upheaval is a pretty unique way to get value out of having a ton of mana. On the other hand, it's not fun to play out the rest of that game in which you have things, probably resource denial, and your opponent does not have things. I think if big mana was weak in my cube I would try adding it until someone got a good one just to see if my group likes it.
We had Armageddon briefly and basically it's too fast for my format. For everyone to have fun, people have to be able to play their spells. I don't actually want aggro (or anyone else) to end the game on turn 4.
Jokulhaups has been a fine card particularly because it's so hard to gain advantage out of in a planeswalkerless format like mine. It's fun to try to build a deck with indestructible and persist creatures. If you get someone with a complete blowout simply because you had a Darksteel Ingot and Hound of Griselbrand in play when you unleashed the Haups, I think I'm okay with that. Six mana is the right neighborhood for that effect and the opponent can play around it better in games two and three. I've considered Wildfire but it's just so much easier to break the symmetry there that I'm a bit reluctant to include it. Also, I've included Worldslayer in my Jokulhaups deck before and although I did not draw it, it would have won me the game had I been able to equip it to my Twilight Shepherd. That kind of interaction is too sweet not to strive for.
We had Armageddon briefly and basically it's too fast for my format. For everyone to have fun, people have to be able to play their spells. I don't actually want aggro (or anyone else) to end the game on turn 4.
Jokulhaups has been a fine card particularly because it's so hard to gain advantage out of in a planeswalkerless format like mine. It's fun to try to build a deck with indestructible and persist creatures. If you get someone with a complete blowout simply because you had a Darksteel Ingot and Hound of Griselbrand in play when you unleashed the Haups, I think I'm okay with that. Six mana is the right neighborhood for that effect and the opponent can play around it better in games two and three. I've considered Wildfire but it's just so much easier to break the symmetry there that I'm a bit reluctant to include it. Also, I've included Worldslayer in my Jokulhaups deck before and although I did not draw it, it would have won me the game had I been able to equip it to my Twilight Shepherd. That kind of interaction is too sweet not to strive for.
I really enjoyed the article, even though I'm playing cards 7 through 2 in my main cube
Black Vise was absolutely unimpressive in my list as the decks tend to empty their hands pretty quickly and even control decks could play around the vise quite easily.
Moat, on the other hand, was just as opressive as stated and made games grind to a halt and then someone would win because whatever.
Another card that I had cut from my cube for power reasons was The Abyss. At first it sounded like an interesting card for pox/stax strategies, but it was absolutely ridiculous. No deck could profitably interact with it and the one way to win against the Abyss player was having it make a huge mistake (which only happened once and most likely because the game was already nearing 40 minutes of duration).
Black Vise was absolutely unimpressive in my list as the decks tend to empty their hands pretty quickly and even control decks could play around the vise quite easily.
Moat, on the other hand, was just as opressive as stated and made games grind to a halt and then someone would win because whatever.
Another card that I had cut from my cube for power reasons was The Abyss. At first it sounded like an interesting card for pox/stax strategies, but it was absolutely ridiculous. No deck could profitably interact with it and the one way to win against the Abyss player was having it make a huge mistake (which only happened once and most likely because the game was already nearing 40 minutes of duration).
Upheaval was pretty non-OP in my cube and I'll probably put it back in soon. I run very little big mana stuff too. It was always a memorable spell, and sometimes you would just throw things back to everyone's hand as a reset button, without the assurance of a win lined up.
Rob Dennis
Developer
In the same way that people love jace, the mind sculptor, I do love playing with wurmcoil engine, but that's 100% because I like playing Wildfire/'Haups and other "Big Red" strategies where's filling a hole that red has in control finishers. Objectively, agree with you on it.
Maze of Ith has so far stayed on the correct side of interactive <-> annoying, but I know it's because my G/x drafters first pick it every time, so it hasn't made the victory lap of "look at all the decks I fit in while screwing you over" and I run a fairly high amount of land death. Objectively, I'd cut it if it got even a bit more out of line.
No one has really played Balance in any proactive way, except my 4th or so attempt at B/W pox before blowing up the section. The scenario you describe sounds awful, and if that happened I'd probably cut it, but so far it's been pretty good as a color-shifted Bonfire of the Damned in W/x midrange where you at least have one out to a better board. This is a card that, if people actually wanted to pick highly, and use proactively, I could easily see cutting.
I emotionally and intellectually agree about the whole rest of the list.
I'm also cutting / have cut / never added:
- Jace, Memory Adept - mill 10 effects aren't what we want to be doing
- most of the "Sword of X & Y" swords, will keep Fire/Ice and maybe War/Peace since W/U/R have the most worthwhile tools in my cube for interacting with it. I would play more of them if I errata'ed away the protection clause
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Maze of Ith is eminently fair IMO. I wouldn't call an indestructible Blinding Mage overpowered (and it's worse than that a fair bit of the time).
Cards I hate are Black Vise and Ankh of Mishra. They rarely lead to interesting or fun board states; I'm happy to run a card like Nether Void, which often locks down the board in the same way, because it requires more thought in drafting/construction/gameplay: often you can craft a board state such that Nether Void ices the game, whereas Black Vise is a lot more simple (play spells, play Black Vise, hurr!)
Cards I hate are Black Vise and Ankh of Mishra. They rarely lead to interesting or fun board states; I'm happy to run a card like Nether Void, which often locks down the board in the same way, because it requires more thought in drafting/construction/gameplay: often you can craft a board state such that Nether Void ices the game, whereas Black Vise is a lot more simple (play spells, play Black Vise, hurr!)
Both Zo-zu and Ankh have been good aggro support cards here. Nothing oppressive.
I haven't tried Nether Void either, but was thinking about testing it since it looks like Armageddon in black and geddon is neat aggro support as well.
I haven't tried Nether Void either, but was thinking about testing it since it looks like Armageddon in black and geddon is neat aggro support as well.