General What is "higher power level"?

Hey guys.

I'm curious and kinda need you to explain what you mean by a 'higher powered environment' or a 'lower powered environment'.

So when you are talking about 'this wont work in a high powered environment', are you talking vintage level? Legacy? Modern? Is it based on how many turns to kill opponent?

Even talking about a low powered environment would be great.

Some guidance would be great. Kind regards - a very unsure 'designer.'
 
That is a pretty good answer. I guess it is difficult because everyone has different ideas on what they consider low and high power.
Thanks for the link :)
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I guess from that scale, if I had to draw a line, I would guess people mean about 6.5 or higher when they say 'high power', and about 4 or lower when they say low power. But it's a very high-dimensional problem so it's hard to classify them well with few words.
 
That is a pretty good answer. I guess it is difficult because everyone has different ideas on what they consider low and high power.
Thanks for the link :)

For sure...I emphasize the “er” in lower and higher only to communicate an approximate location on the spectrum of power. It’s just a shorthand in conversation to avoid getting bogged down in the definition of things and arguing over it.

For instance, high powered for one person could mean a singleton breaking “arms race” combo cube with turn 1-3 kills, for another it could mean a cube that seeks to capture the essence of an eternal format, and for another it could just mean a cube that utilizes the individually “best” cube cards from a traditional singleton understanding of cube.

This shorthand is especially helpful here, because we have such a diverse and broad range of power in cube design on this forum
 
To be honest, it's pretty nebulous, and there isn't really a generally agreed definition in riptide or the cube community as a whole. The strix scale has a whole suite of problems, and in my experience the best thing to do is just to find the ballpark. And, in the end, the terminology doesn't really matter - if you're curious about a list, inquire about a cube cobra/cube tutor link. If I had to make a judgement, I'd say anything in the realm of modern retail can be considered low power, but I'm not sure it's something that can really be quantified.
 
Modern is a higher-powered format than Standard because the average Modern deck will dunk on the average Standard deck. The problem with extending this analogy is that while Vintage/Legacy may be higher-powered than Modern, there's not always the same lopsidedness in matchups between decks of those two formats because of the inbred nature of Vintage/Legacy (i.e. those decks run some cards that are incredibly inefficient like Force of Will because if you don't have ways to always have a response up you can die in an instant).

This example shows that there are multiple dimensions of power: the strength of the average card is one dimension, but so is the ability to end a game out of nowhere ("acceleration," if you will). There's also the spread of card power, the how reliant cards are on one another, and a host of other factors. So you see, this is actually a great, non-trivial question that a lot if Magic players still struggle with! You may know the joke that gets bandied about the Magic subreddit about Magic players being terrible at card evaluation during spoiler season--that's hard proof that power is difficult to conceptualize and evaluate, even when you're only looking at a single card!

My biggest takeaway from the whole concept of power in cube is that power is what you make it, so don't stress too much about it. It's just a label, a heuristic by which we try to grok an entire cube, so don't worry too much. As to your specific question about "what does is mean to say this won't work in a higher-powered environment," usually our definitions of high- and low-powered environments vary from person to person. This tends to lead to disagreements over terminology, kind of like how LSV and Marshall will fight over cards on the Limited Resources podcast during spoiler season with one of them saying "this is great!" and the other saying "this is terrible!" and them both of them wind up giving it a B- regardless.
 
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landofMordor

Administrator
Here's what "high power" means in concrete terms w.r.t. cube design:

Case A: If the average 2-drop in your environment is Grizzly Bears, the average 3 is Nessian Courser, etc... pretty much every card in Magic is playable alongside these cards. Any removal spells like Final Death, any bombs like Baneslayer Angel, any card draw like Divination, etc etc, all stack up well against Bears and Coursers. In fact, since Grizzly-Bears-with-upside is a Retail Limited staple, it's probably true that most Bears have been in formats alongside the vast majority of Magic cards.

Case B: Now let's say your average 2-drop is Dark Confidant, and your average 3-drop is Lovestruck Beast. These cards net card advantage from early turns in the game, which tends to outclass removal that can't interact early (Final Death), expensive creatures that don't provide immediate benefit (BSA), and expensive card advantage which doesn't affect the board (Divination). These specifics don't really matter -- the point is that the viable card pool for your cube has shrunk to exclude some effects, since they're completely outshone by Dark Confidant and Lovestruck Beast. Generally speaking, when your competitive card pool shrinks, you've increased your power level.

TLDR: Moving from Case A to Case B increases power level, restricting your design freedom in some ways and giving you more freedom in other ways. Case B to Case A decreases power level, increasing the pool of cards you can pull from.
 
like others have said, there’s a ton of dimensions to it, but i find the two generally most useful dimensions are:
1. how FAST will i die in this environment if i do nothing? (turn 3? turn 7?) i would call this “speed.” or whatever, i’m not trying to establish new standard terms here.
2. how many METHODS of killing me are there? (attack with creatures? Splinter Twin? Chain of Smog?) i would call this “fairness.”

if you put these two axes together you can kind of look at cubes in a quadrant.
low fairness low power: this cube includes lots of combo kills, so stack interaction and hand disruption will likely grow in importance relative to doom blades. but the combos may be slow or just inconsistent, leading games to end after several turns instead of in the first few. this environment doesn’t exist in many WOTC-curated environments, but some riptiders have created cool “combo cubes” that would fall into this category.
low power high fairness: this would basically be analogous to a core set retail environment- nearly all wins will be achieved via combat damage in the later turns of a game. even aggro has trouble killing by turn 4. doom blades are valued much more highly than duresses or cancels.
low fairness high power: this would be comparable to a true vintage powered cube, where most wins involve making fast mana to power out a combo kill on the stack. combat matters very little here and kills can come very early in the game, so effects like Grief and Force of Negation are valued much higher than Doom Blade or Day of Judgment.
High power high fairness: this would be comparable to a Brainstorming cube, where the main theater of interaction is the battlefield, but the creatures, planeswalkers, and interaction are extremely powerful for their mana cost. kills will come early (usually via combat) in this format if you do nothing, but you’re not doing nothing because all the cards can be played early, so games tend to go long due to the high density of cheap interaction.
 
just more and more examples of how many variables there are to the concept lol. You can have fast formats that are high or low powered by other metrics, same with combo or not-combo.

I do like the metric of "applicable card pool size". This was a common metric Grillo used when discussing the merits of the penny pincher cube.
 

Laz

Developer
The point which hasn't been alluded to, but not spelled out here is how this leads into 'better in a low-power environment', 'better in a high-power environment'.

Cards which accrue advantage over time are often worse in higher power environments as the time they will be given to accrue that value will be contracted, as often the answers are incredibly efficient, so the card can be answered without losing tempo, or the game simply ends too fast. This leads into a situation in which higher power environments force cards to generate value up-front, and anything they do once you untap with them is just a bonus. Higher powered environments struggle to justify expensive permanents which don't immediately impact the board, even if the longer term payoff is incredibly high, simply because not impacting the board when spending 5-6 mana will put you so far behind in the short term.
 
The point which hasn't been alluded to, but not spelled out here is how this leads into 'better in a low-power environment', 'better in a high-power environment'.

Cards which accrue advantage over time are often worse in higher power environments as the time they will be given to accrue that value will be contracted, as often the answers are incredibly efficient, so the card can be answered without losing tempo, or the game simply ends too fast. This leads into a situation in which higher power environments force cards to generate value up-front, and anything they do once you untap with them is just a bonus. Higher powered environments struggle to justify expensive permanents which don't immediately impact the board, even if the longer term payoff is incredibly high, simply because not impacting the board when spending 5-6 mana will put you so far behind in the short term.
i would add to that, when you get into higher power environments, people just aren’t spending 5-6 mana on a single spell, period, outside of corner cases.
for example, many people on Brainstorming cubes will tell you something like “Dreadhorde Arcanist is my favorite blue Baneslayer,” and yes that statement carries meaning and isn’t just trolling
 

landofMordor

Administrator
i would add to that, when you get into higher power environments, people just aren’t spending 5-6 mana on a single spell, period, outside of corner cases.
for example, many people on Brainstorming cubes will tell you something like “Dreadhorde Arcanist is my favorite blue Baneslayer,” and yes that statement carries meaning and isn’t just trolling
Hey, wait a second. Gurmag Angler is my favorite Blue baneslayer, not Arcanist! (;
 
The point which hasn't been alluded to, but not spelled out here is how this leads into 'better in a low-power environment', 'better in a high-power environment'.

Cards which accrue advantage over time are often worse in higher power environments as the time they will be given to accrue that value will be contracted, as often the answers are incredibly efficient, so the card can be answered without losing tempo, or the game simply ends too fast. This leads into a situation in which higher power environments force cards to generate value up-front, and anything they do once you untap with them is just a bonus. Higher powered environments struggle to justify expensive permanents which don't immediately impact the board, even if the longer term payoff is incredibly high, simply because not impacting the board when spending 5-6 mana will put you so far behind in the short term.
I think this is what I actually meant. I see a lot of discussions of 'this is better in a low/high power environment' but this gives me a better understanding of what people are generally eluding to. I am such a Timmy at heart that I don't always see the Johnny/Spike.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I think this is what I actually meant. I see a lot of discussions of 'this is better in a low/high power environment' but this gives me a better understanding of what people are generally eluding to. I am such a Timmy at heart that I don't always see the Johnny/Spike.
Do you have a favorite card? It's kind of rare around here to hear people self-identify as Timmies/Tammies, so I'm genuinely interested in learning more about your perspective. How does your Timmyness translate to your design perspective / what you love in a game of Magic?
 
It's kind of nebulous to define, but I'd say higher-powered cubes usually revolve around individual card inclusions and play patterns for me. Like when do your defined archetypes/decks get going in your environment assuming optimal curve out? What does your mana acceleration look like in general? Are your threats all-in-one packages that can change games on their own or do they require the right support to get going? How many haymaker effects do you deploy that require very little set-up? What does your removal suite consist of; are you capable of checking threats one-for-one efficiently?

If I'm looking over a list I'm unfamiliar with, there are definitely a handful of cards that stick out on the power spectrum that lead me to evaluate it accordingly. I like to see the efficiency of creatures in the 3-4 CMC slot, the kind of value and/or ETB generation they're capable of. Are they able to produce a cards worth of "value" on the regular? A lot of times it comes down to figuring out what the "average" card in a cube is capable of. For example, I feel like a good benchmark is how you feel about this card:



Tracker is an above average card for me in my environment, but it's an interesting case study overall. When you look at it, is this too powerful an option by doing too much at once or do you see it as a card with a lot of cross synergy appeal? It's scalable as the game progresses generating virtual card advantage with the ability to scale vertically, it promotes interactions with themes like Landfall and +1/+1 counters, has a relevant creature type for cards that care tribally, and arrives with a solid stats as a 3/2 at a splash able 2{G}. You have the ability to utilize clues as virtual combat tricks to grow this as an attacker or blocker while also replenishing your card draw. You can bluff actions that might otherwise be inaccessible.

The plethora of positives might be just what you're looking for in a versatile card inclusions or way too much depending on other card choices/design goals. It was certainly a powerful card in Shadows Over Innistrad Draft, but it wasn't necessarily a bomb that warped the game around it. There is definitely a window of interaction before it gets out of hand, but not all cubes might give you the necessary tools to deal with it or keep up. Overall, I think it's a pretty good litmus test for any given environment.
 
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For better or worse I think of the MTGO cubes as sort of the base-line or starting point for how people evaluate cube power levels so when someone says "I have a lower power cube" I imagine they mean "lower power level than MTGO vintage/legacy". In general though I think it's mostly just a short-hand that isn't an actual substitute for looking at a list and talking to the designer as cubes can exist all over the power level spectrum and with equally vast power deltas, which I think are an important and often neglected piece of the puzzle. Am I supposed to consider Strixhaven a high power draft format just because it contains cards deemed too powerful for Modern like Natural Order, Brainstorm, Demonic Tutor and Dark Ritual? Those individual cards might be stronger than most cards legal in Modern but the average deck in Strixhaven draft still won't have anything of that quality and will still have to win with a combination of wind drakes, bears with sets mechanics and other overcosted french vanillas that won't even see standard play so I have a hard time considering it to be a "high power format".

tl;dr none of it really matters and you still need to talk with the other person to have an idea of how powerful their cube is and what the decks look like.
 
This is an interesting question. The fact is that there is no absolute scale, and probably the most powerful cube is this.

You could make an argument for "cube X is more powered than cube Y if the average deck of cube X beats, on average, the average deck of cube Y". But then, it's not exactly a mathematical definition. If in a "powermax" cube you could play Collector Ouphe, and in a synergy cube you play instead Herald of the Pantheon because you have an enchantress archetype, probably a deck with synergy from the second cube is more powerful than a deck without synergies but with only "raw power" from the first cube.

I also think that sometimes in a cube creation you have to choose between synergy and power, obviously you can choose no synergy and no power (e.g. Grizzly Bears) but then the result is not a cube but a pile of cards. I think a cube is not a collection of 360 (or more) cards, but it's a collection of that number of cards chosen through a certain criterion. And then, I would call a cube "higher powered" if the criterion is to build an environment that is the most powerful possible within a restriction (for example, even the MTG Arena Cube is higher powered I think, because it has all the most powerful cards on the client, even though every deck from it would probably lose to a random cube chosen here on riptidelab), while I would call a cube "not higher powered" if the criterion is different (like: "I want to make Eldrazi Spawn tokens playable"), and obviously the criterion drives you towards choices that discard the most powerful cards in favour of less powerful but more synergistic ones
 
Do you have a favorite card? It's kind of rare around here to hear people self-identify as Timmies/Tammies, so I'm genuinely interested in learning more about your perspective. How does your Timmyness translate to your design perspective / what you love in a game of Magic?

I think my favourite mechanic of recent times is the controversial mutate mechanic. The idea of growing my creatures into bigger, more bad ass creatures appeals haha.

In terms of design, it usually requires me to check myself a lot haha. My playgroup is made up of Johnny mostly with some spike. So I try to include stuff that works for all. Including mutate haha, because what is cube-design without some self indulgence. So I do a lot of reading on forums, looking at cube lists etc to make sure I don't stray too far from the path. I think the biggest thing that I clash with is the spike idea of if a creature does nothing the turn it comes into play, then it is useless.
 
I think the biggest thing that I clash with is the spike idea of if a creature does nothing the turn it comes into play, then it is useless.
I would argue that this statement is not completely accurate, at least not until you get up to higher mana costs (3-4 mana depending on your format speed). There are plenty of 1-3 mana “baneslayers” like Mother of Runes, Ethereal Forager, Dark Confidant, Dreadhorde Arcanist, and Tarmogoyf that are great in high power environments. Where baneslayers get bad is when they cost significantly more to play than they do to remove.
Example:
If I play Arcanist and you kill it with Swords to Plowshares before it attacks, you’re up 1 mana and 0 cards. I can probably recoup that tempo loss pretty easily.
But if I play Baneslayer Angel and you Swords it, you’re up 4 mana. That is a HUGE tempo loss for me and will allow you to get drastically ahead on board. THAT’S where the concept applies, and why you generally see higher cost cards disappear almost completely as the power level of a cube moves up- big creatures become
more and more of a trap as removal becomes more efficient in an environment.
 
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