General What is Temur doing for you?

Nanonox

Nanonox

*Disclaimer: this is for a 3 person FFA multiplayer cube*

I'm trying to revamp my powermax cube because I was tired of some GRBS cards. I'm making decent progess, but am having a hard time coming up with what my Temur wedge is up to.

Here is what I have so far:
Abzan: +1/+1 counters
Jeska: Spells matter
Mardu: Sacrifice
Sultai: Graveyard matters
Temur: Top of library???

If you look at the guild breakdown:
Azorius: Blink
Dimir: Self-mill
Gruul: ??
Rakdos: Sacrifice
Selesnya: +1/+1 counters
Boros: Tokens
Golgari: GY matters
Orzhov: Humans
Izzet: Spells matter
Simic: ??
It's pretty obvious why my Temur wedge isn't focused, I don't know what I'm doing at guild level.

Now, I generally see Simic going towards a more tempo role in 1 VS 1 cubes, but tempo isn't possible in a multiplayer cube (or at least, I haven't gotten it to work).
Gruul also struggles to find an identity other than monsters.

I was thinking top of library matters as a Temur theme with these payoff cards:


Between Brainstorm(s), Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Mystical Tutor, Sylvan Library, Lifecrafter's Bestiary, scry, I think there are enough enablers.

What are your thoughts on this wedge and what do you do?
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

Energy could actually be a sweet one! I'll do a gatherer search and see if there is enough overlap with the rest of the cube. Thanks!
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

It seems sweet, although I wish there could be just a -few- more 'big bomb' payoff cards...
Click to expand...

Agreed. Doing a quick search, it looks like it might be too low power for me.

and seem like nice payoffs in green but those are about the only ones.

I was thinking about a land theme, but blue doesn't have much in that department. Gruul has decent tools though with Life from the Loam and Molten Vortex.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
In most cubes, R/U/G is just a sort of blue jund deck. Its just a combination of R/G's stompy components and removal, married to U's card draw/selection.
The problem with the TOL deck is that it isn't actually a deck--its a couple cards that value combo in a minor way.
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

Fair enough Grill0. I guess I was just looking for a defining theme, but monsters+draw is sure to work too.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Temur and Mardu have always sucked, take it from my glorious 0-3 PT performance

RN is the first time a Mardu deck (which is really colorless Boros) has been good, I think

The Aristocrats was a sweet deck with a sweet name but it wasn't good because I am not good

As for Temur the Legacy Delver deck never performed that well statistically and when Sperling posted his joke about someone playing "Temur Midrange" my playgroup rightly razzed me about it

I think with wedges you can't really "support" one because the mana is too hard, with the possible exception of Jeskai Ascendancy because it is sweet. Energy provides a certain direction for RUG, though, and I think there's enough sweet non-poisony Energy cards to make a subtheme that's 100% RUG

Longtusk Cub
Harnessed Lightning
Glimmer of Genius
Dynavolt Tower
Aethersphere Harvester
Aetherworks Marvel
Rogue Refiner
Whirler Virtuoso
Greenbelt Rampager
Lathnu Hellion
Servant of the Conduit
Voltaic Brawler
Shielded Aether Thief (what a stupid name)

Probably not Attune with Aether
Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is the only other worthyish card and it's the wrong color
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Okay I haven't read any of this shit and it's too late for me to start now, but I've had success letting people branch out into 3 color by making all the pairs do overlapping things.

Like if {U}{R}, {R}{W} and {U}{W} are all spells decks, but they go about it in different ways, people catch on and start to splash some of the 3rd color, or get a fire draft and go full 3 color
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
CML said:
Temur and Mardu have always sucked, take it from my glorious 0-3 PT performance

As for Temur the Legacy Delver deck never performed that well statistically and when Sperling posted his joke about someone playing "Temur Midrange" my playgroup rightly razzed me about it
Click to expand...
Canadian Threshold was a thing though (and still is-ish?). The deck even won some high profile tournaments, like the SCG Open in Philadelphia and the SCG Invitational in Richmond back in 2015, and has multiple GP t8's (including at least one win, though we have to go back to 2012 for that).

I also remember all manner of succesful RUG decks from Invasion - Odyssey standard. Brian Kibler, for example, won the Georgia Champs with this beauty.

Kibler RUG

Creature (12)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Flametongue Kavu

Spells (24)
4 Counterspell
4 Fire // Ice
3 Syncopate
4 Call of the Herd
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Opposition
3 Beast Attack

Lands (24)
6 Forest
6 Island
3 Karplusan Forest
2 Mossfire Valley
3 Shivan Reef
4 Yavimaya Coast

Sideboard (15)
4 Disrupt
2 Jungle Barrier
2 Persuasion
2 Spellbane Centaur
2 Thunderscape Battlemage
3 Urza's Rage


Edit: And from that same Georgia top 8:

Ko Ransom RUG - Quarterfinalist

Creatures (21)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Spellbane Centaur
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Mystic Snake
2 Shivan Wurm

Spells (15)
4 Counterspell
4 Squirrel Nest
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Opposition

Land (24)
7 Forest
8 Island
2 Karplusan Forest
1 Mountain
2 Shivan Reef
4 Yavimaya Coast

Sideboard (15)
4 Gainsay
3 Hull Breach
3 Jungle Barrier
3 Kavu Chameleon
1 Meekstone
1 Spellbane Centaur
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

firemaw Ph.D. said:
idk, but with cards like edric, you can "convert" tempo into card advantage.
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That's a good point firemaw. Bident of Thassa does the same thing which creates some nice redundancy. However, I don't see much after that.
Not card advantage, but I also like Baral's Expertise in MP as it clears away blockers while still allowing you to add to your board.

Chris Taylor said:
I've had success letting people branch out into 3 color by making all the pairs do overlapping things.
Click to expand...
I try and use this approach in my cube. It works well in the Jeskai example you described here as well.
RW is tokens, UW has blink and is generally more value oriented and UR is all about spells.

However, I can get a UR spell token deck (Young Pyromancer, Docent of Perfection, Hordeling Outburst, Talrand's Invocation) and splash white for a Rally the Peasants and a Secure the Wastes.

This is the type of thing I'm struggling to do in Temur because my Gruul and Simic identities aren't well defined. What generally happens is:
RG monster deck splashing for blue card draw.
UR spells deck splashing green for recursion.
UG midrange/control deck splashing red for removal (like in the 2 decklists Onderzeeboot provided).
But there is no cross over like in Jeskai.

Energy package
I'm pretty sure I could get this package to work. However seeing as we probably won't be getting any new energy cards for a while, I don't think I want this theme as a long term addition to the cube. Those slots would be pretty much accounted for and almost no new cards could enhance the theme.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
One thing Grillo suggested to me was that ramp can be the unifying identity of the 3 colors, but that can be extremely hard to pull off.

Here's what I've learned:
  • Signaling people with your choice of mana rocks doesn't help. People do eventually see that Gruul Signet is still amazing in their UW Superfriends deck, even if that doesn't happen at first blush. Fire diamond doesn't actually help wildfire anymore than other decks that want a 2 drop rock.
  • Try to keep the ramp specific payoffs in these colors. Karn Liberated is a strong ass magic card, but I think the fact that he's equally at home in a blue based control deck is actually a detriment to getting this archetype defined to the point where you're satisfied. You might even go so far as to stop the non-ramp color's curves early, cutting all the 6+ mana cards.
    • As a sub point for this, adding in expensive but hard to cast cards in the non-ramp colors doesn't make them any less likely to see play and dilute the ramp colors identiy either. I love Angel of Serenity as a card, but any ramp deck worth it's salt can manage that mana cost or avoid it altogether with something like Tooth and Nail
  • The payoff needs to be enough to justify the investment. At a certain power level (Hey I run titans), the 6 drops are so strong that anything ramp specific (Like 8+ mana) aren't proportionally stronger, or are so in gameplay detrimental ways. If you run all the way up to Ulamog levels of insanity, he's probably actually worth 10 mana, since he's essentially a sorcery that makes your opponent scoop. However, bascially anything below that might end up being not worth the effort over Sun Titan (Who's probably one of the most pedestrian of his brothers), or even little things like Doom Blade. It's a fine as hell line to walk, and complicated further if there's any type of combo style shenanigans in your list like Reanimate, Show and Tell, or Sneak Attack
It should be noted I stopped trying to push ramp specifically and I'm trying other stuff, but custom cards makes that a lot easier. Hopefully the above helps you rather than just sounding off putting :p
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

Thanks Chris (and Grillo indirectly I guess!) for the very enlightening comment.

- I want to keep mana rocks to a minimum (Wayfarer's Bauble, Mind Stone, Pristine Talisman) and I don't plan on adding any more. That way ramp can stay almost exclusively in green.

- Since I play multiplayer, the games are a little slower than what you guys probably run. Therefore my list naturally has more 6+ cards than most cubes I would imagine. However, I don't run many 7 drops and maybe these guys could be the payoff. I'm thinking Simic Sky Swallower and Dragonlord Atarka as they are a bit above the curve of my other creatures.
My only fear, is that black takes them for reanimator purposes (Dread Return, Victimize, Living Death). But maybe a little competition for cards isn't a bad thing.

- To keep the payoffs in the specific colors, that would probably mean cutting Angel of Serenity (I feel comfortable keeping Eternal Dragon and Tombstalker as 7+ drops as they aren't that impactful).

Thanks for the suggestion and explanation :)
 
GiftsForgiven

GiftsForgiven

Nanonox said:
Thanks Chris (and Grillo indirectly I guess!) for the very enlightening comment.

- I want to keep mana rocks to a minimum (Wayfarer's Bauble, Mind Stone, Pristine Talisman) and I don't plan on adding any more. That way ramp can stay almost exclusively in green.

- Since I play multiplayer, the games are a little slower than what you guys probably run. Therefore my list naturally has more 6+ cards than most cubes I would imagine. However, I don't run many 7 drops and maybe these guys could be the payoff. I'm thinking Simic Sky Swallower and Dragonlord Atarka as they are a bit above the curve of my other creatures.
My only fear, is that black takes them for reanimator purposes (Dread Return, Victimize, Living Death). But maybe a little competition for cards isn't a bad thing.

- To keep the payoffs in the specific colors, that would probably mean cutting Angel of Serenity (I feel comfortable keeping Eternal Dragon and Tombstalker as 7+ drops as they aren't that impactful).

Thanks for the suggestion and explanation :)
Click to expand...


If you're worried about reanimator eating up all the top-end creatures, try some payoff creatures with 'on cast' effects. My personal favorite one is decimator of provinces, but maelstrom wanderer and world breaker are also great ramp targets that have most of their value attached to cast triggers.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Nanonox said:
Thanks Chris (and Grillo indirectly I guess!) for the very enlightening comment.

- I want to keep mana rocks to a minimum (Wayfarer's Bauble, Mind Stone, Pristine Talisman) and I don't plan on adding any more. That way ramp can stay almost exclusively in green.

- Since I play multiplayer, the games are a little slower than what you guys probably run. Therefore my list naturally has more 6+ cards than most cubes I would imagine. However, I don't run many 7 drops and maybe these guys could be the payoff. I'm thinking Simic Sky Swallower and Dragonlord Atarka as they are a bit above the curve of my other creatures.
My only fear, is that black takes them for reanimator purposes (Dread Return, Victimize, Living Death). But maybe a little competition for cards isn't a bad thing.

- To keep the payoffs in the specific colors, that would probably mean cutting Angel of Serenity (I feel comfortable keeping Eternal Dragon and Tombstalker as 7+ drops as they aren't that impactful).

Thanks for the suggestion and explanation :)
Click to expand...

For reference, tombstalker realistically costs 4-5 :p
 
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