General When Is Fixing Too Good?

Aoret

Developer
At work so I don't have time to formulate an adequate reply, but I've been following the discussion off and on and would like to reiterate that my motivations were never about improving aggro (it was doing fine before the change). My motivation was purely to discourage loose splashes. This is the answer to the question you posed Grillo: "why would I want to do this?" The answer is that in formats with premium mana, there exists virtually no check whatsoever against these types of splashes.

This is borne out in draft coverage; I continue to foolishly build (and lose with) tight 2 color decks in Jason and Safras formats because my brain doesn't understand yet that I'm drafting a different cube than my own. Meanwhile all of you villains run around trouncing me with your four color decks and superior understanding of game mechanics ;)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think in your format it makes a lot of sense Aoret. I also think it would be interesting to try to build a format with multiple waste lands, 70 colored fixers (40 of them being fetches). Maybe just give 100 slots to lands, and make the format about higher powered mana base construction.
 

Aoret

Developer
It's very possible that the idea just isn't portable outside of my format. I'd hoped that it was, but the discussion made me realize that fetchland density probably does have quite a bit to do with wasteland being okay. Even if my initial hope was totally bunk, it's still cool to see all of the discussion in this thread. Lots of tangents to pursue :D
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, I think your format actually resembles Legacy in both the spells and the mana, so Wastelands make a lot more sense here in putting a foot down on needless, unchecked greed.

I will say - and this is something I'm just realizing myself, in my own list - that two-colour, no-splash decks are a great place to cram in as many sweet colourless utility lands as possible, which by themselves can make up for the difference in power between a two-colour deck and a two-colour-plus-two-splash deck. Your opponents might be slinging better spells, but your honed, disciplined aggro deck can afford to play Wasteland, Mutavault, and Gavony Township. I'm someone who always used to default to a minimum of one splash and a maximum of three, but cutting out the splashes entirely for better utility lands is something I've been leaning towards lately in my own drafts, and really enjoying.

This is, as far as I can tell, the best incentive yet for people to stick to fewer colours, even when the available mana could support more.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not sure I follow the Stone Rain arguments, nor do I understand folks continuing to mention it in the same sentence as Wasteland (literally!). Does anyone actually cube with the card?

To be clear, it's not so much semantics that I'm discussing, as much as the power level concerns. Tectonic Edge is clearly made of the same cloth as Wasteland, but it's being pooh-poohed as 'not good enough'. Meanwhile, Demolish also destroys lands - not to mention artifacts, so, bonus! - and by this new definition I suppose it also "ramps". Is this a trendy new spell we should all consider running?

The reason we bring it up is because a lot of the arguments being used against Wasteland could be used here. "If Stone Rain mana screws a two color splash deck even once...". That would happen. Everyone ends up on a two-lander that includes a basic and a non-basic that taps for two other colors every now and then. Almost every land destruction spell will pass your automatic removal from cube test.

It's not that I want to include that spell, but the criteria being offered for evaluation aren't really satisfying here. If the test would also cut out far weaker effects that I'm not even running, then I'm not particularly interested in the test.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
hmmm...I have a long post written, but I'm not sure it wouldn't result in us talking past one another. Framing it as "balance" shifting seems a bit off as well. My post just simply stated the more a format condenses down, the more it operates on aggro's basic strategic axis (mana efficiency, tempo generation) and it should thrive in those types of environments, for obvious reasons. Kind of like this:




Wrath is a clunky and tempo-inefficent spell, and is outclassed by the threats that it has to face. A lot of our format's reward tempo generation pretty heavily, and this is a good example of:



It sounds like Dom is in a situation where the format is rewarding tempo generation more than card advantage, and this places the control decks in an awkward position of not really being in line with what the format wants to do.

I hope that helps, but as I'm not sure what language is coming across as jargon, its difficult for me to pinpoint the exact issues I should be responding to.

Sorry if I came across strongly. I agree that wrath of god as a card becomes worse under these conditions, but I'm not sure that control as an archetype necessarily suffers or aggro gains. If I think about Legacy, something like a BUG Control deck tops out at 3 or 4 mana but is full of high impact efficient plays. A given higher CMC card may be worse for the wear, but the archetype is still there.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Well, we aren't really testing anything, we are making analogies, and analogies are flawed by their nature. This one seems to be particularly off, because the difference between blowing up a land on turn 1 and turn 3 is huge. Wasteland produces free wins in a way that few other cards can.

Thats whats making its inclusion contentious; though to be fair, land destruction in general tends to be a contentious topic. Its just that this is the first time that wasteland is really being questioned, where as before it was seen as the center piece of encouraging the sort of low curve, spell velocity focused formats we tend to like.


Sorry if I came across strongly. I agree that wrath of god as a card becomes worse under these conditions, but I'm not sure that control as an archetype necessarily suffers or aggro gains. If I think about Legacy, something like a BUG Control deck tops out at 3 or 4 mana but is full of high impact efficient plays. A given higher CMC card may be worse for the wear, but the archetype is still there.

Right, but overall, condensed formats still favor the aggro decks gameplan. Control decks can exist, but the tools they use have to be able to operate at a very low mana cost and be impactful. Look at miracles: it exists because of the power level of a 1cc wrath, 2cc counter engine, and 1cc top. Almost all of its removal and counters are 1-2cc. Counter top is an effective lock because so many spells in the format are 1-2cc spells: its a super condensed format. These decks are functioning off of a very select portion of the card pool, that enables them to operate at this level.

Most traditional control printings, however, have been higher CC printings. So the more a cube format gravitates toward sequencing a certain velocity of cheap high impact spells, the more it naturally falls into the province of an aggro decks gameplan. There is only one card ever printed like terminus, so Dom's control decks, in an evidently condensing format, end up struggling with 4cc wraths, while the aggro decks are fine.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I would love to do more testing. Leaving for England tomorrow, maybe James will be up for it.

I know that the Wasteland dynamic I have isn't ideal, am jealous of Aoret's format because it is able to implement the dynamic I originally aimed for. There seems to be a divide between people who think Wasteland is inexcusable and those that think it's not actually that harmful. I would say that it is suboptimal design-wise, but still a net positive on the quality of my format.

What I liked about Tec Edge Standard was that there was a lot of counterplay and interaction and decision making, and I wish we could conceive some Wasteland variant that has counterplay without neutering it entirely.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I cut wasteland because it helped the stronger decks in my environment beat on the weaker ones, but for what its worth I liked how the card played.

Related: Why do we want to "check" splashes? If this is an intrinsic part of the format, why not just let it happen?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I cut wasteland because it helped the stronger decks in my environment beat on the weaker ones, but for what its worth I liked how the card played.

Related: Why do we want to "check" splashes? If this is an intrinsic part of the format, why not just let it happen?

Personally I'm not trying to check them really. I think Aoret comes at this from a slightly different angle. What I'd hoped to create were more situations where you have to weigh fetching a basic versus a nonbasic, but in practice this doesn't happen much because your fetches aren't often double on-color.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
It's very possible that the idea just isn't portable outside of my format. I'd hoped that it was, but the discussion made me realize that fetchland density probably does have quite a bit to do with wasteland being okay. Even if my initial hope was totally bunk, it's still cool to see all of the discussion in this thread. Lots of tangents to pursue :D
My cube explicitly supports three-color decks, so color screwing someone out of one color is a real concern there. At the same time I replaced all green ramp (except Primeval Titan) with custom options that fix for green's allies at best (that's black and white in my cube) in the case of mana dorks. The ramp spells actually all fetch a basic Forest, so they're pure ramp. The ULD likewise contains very limited and mostly inferior options for mana fixing. So while I won't support Wasteland, I am discouraging 5-color good stuff in my own way. You really have to pick nonbasics very highly, but then you're passing the juiciest reasons to go full greed mode :)
 
I cut wasteland because it helped the stronger decks in my environment beat on the weaker ones, but for what its worth I liked how the card played.

Related: Why do we want to "check" splashes? If this is an intrinsic part of the format, why not just let it happen?

I went through a period with my fetch/dual manabase (and i'm not sure switching to shocks isn't right at some point) where CDe decks just weren't beating their cDEf counterparts. The additional gold cards was worth more than the slight consistency boost, and as a designer I felt like I wanted the opposite to be true. I think the fear of Wasteland goes further than Wasteland does, and so it's actually a less obtrusive way to hit my environment with a stabilizing pressure than 4x Fulminator Mage might have been (ps, fulmi is the fair 3-mana LD spell to compare to not stone rain or molten whatsit)

The point about running colourless lands is quite an interesting one, and actually dear to my own heart (my UW legacy control deck plays 4 mishra's factory 2 wasteland) - would these be main cube, just a bunch chilling? I don't like monocolour decks very much but if they had like 3 Mutavaults maybe i'd reconsider.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I will say - and this is something I'm just realizing myself, in my own list - that two-colour, no-splash decks are a great place to cram in as many sweet colourless utility lands as possible, which by themselves can make up for the difference in power between a two-colour deck and a two-colour-plus-two-splash deck. Your opponents might be slinging better spells, but your honed, disciplined aggro deck can afford to play Wasteland, Mutavault, and Gavony Township. I'm someone who always used to default to a minimum of one splash and a maximum of three, but cutting out the splashes entirely for better utility lands is something I've been leaning towards lately in my own drafts, and really enjoying.

This is, as far as I can tell, the best incentive yet for people to stick to fewer colours, even when the available mana could support more.

It is interesting, that at the end of the day we end up, again, bifurcating mana base construction between multi-color greed, and two color consistency. It seems very difficult to escape that in a limited setting.

I wonder if there is any merit in pushing this, by making it more of a focus on a format's design.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
It is interesting, that at the end of the day we end up, again, bifurcating mana base construction between multi-color greed, and two color consistency.


I'm sorry to keep arguing against you, but to me the term bifurcation feels overly strong. I've never seen any great divide with my cube aligning into two camps. It's been very much a continuum, with almost all the decks falling somewhere between fully two-color decks and fully three-color decks, with a good number of two-color + splash decks. With the confounding variable being that bad drafters go two-color with much more likelihood, and better drafters are more comfortable stretching into a third color. Three-color drafters will run colorless lands, but can afford fewer than there two-color counterparts.

There are pros and cons to running more / less colors, and this feels like a good place to be. There are tradeoffs in card quality to be had, the ability to run more colorless lands, consistency in manabase, the fact that each color has natural weaknesses and running more gives you more potential answers.

I used to record every draft, so I have a lot of these saved up:

Drafts won by two-color decks:
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Drafts won by three+ color decks:
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Drafts won by two-color splash decks:
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Looking through old posts from my cube Facebook group, the only people who have been successful (2-1 or better) with 4-color lists in my cube are myself, a WMCQ finalist and a pro tour player. All of those drafts happened during my 20 fetchland / 4 wasteland era, whereas I'm now on 25 fetchlands and 3 wastelands.
 
Almost every land destruction spell will pass your automatic removal from cube test.

Yes. And that's ok for some environments. I play with several newer/more casual players, and to have them struggle to even get the deck they want to come together only to get randomly sucker punched in the manabase? No thanks.

Newer players will have a hard time with wasteland both because they undervalue it themselves, and because it can wreck their gameplan. This is echoing people saying it helps stronger decks beat weaker decks. In my group, it totally would.

For what it's worth, I don't think many cubes here are getting close to an amount of fixing that regularly "needs" LD to control it. Why think in terms of Legacy, when a lot of us are closer to Modern? LD is not as prevalent there, especially not land based LD. Again agreeing with people above, for Aoret I think wastelands may be an important puzzle piece.

What it boils down to for me as a designer is: Fun gameplay with cool manabases and splashes >>> trying to control "too much fixing" and ending up making people feel bad. I'd rather put in another Tuk Tuk etc. etc. than try and stop the cool UBwr control deck from casting the wrath in their hand.


TL;DR: if you play with a lot of new people, I wouldn't recommend wasteland as an answer to anything.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
For what it's worth I'm not really trying to use them to punish splashes. I splash as much or more than anyone. It's more that they're a disruptive tool for aggro to extend the early game.

Anyways, I recorded a video where I looked at random starting hands and the effect Wasteland or other land destruction would have, as well as how the games would play out with various wasteland variants.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
The reason we bring it up is because a lot of the arguments being used against Wasteland could be used here. "If Stone Rain mana screws a two color splash deck even once...". That would happen. Everyone ends up on a two-lander that includes a basic and a non-basic that taps for two other colors every now and then. Almost every land destruction spell will pass your automatic removal from cube test.
To be completely unambiguous, it's not the concept of land destruction itself that I'm against. It might surprise some of you to know that I cubed the actual card Stone Rain at one point! (It wasn't very good). I've also been a fairly vocal proponent in favour of a land destruction theme for Gruul on these very boards. To clear up any lingering confusion, the issues I have with Wasteland that aren't present with Stone Rain and the like are as follows:

1) Wasteland doesn't require a colour commitment. Stone Rain at least forces you to have red mana.
2) Wasteland doesn't use a spell slot in your deck. I'm more than fine with people devoting one of their 23 spells to land destruction; it's a narrow enough usage that it'll be dead some amount of the time, so you really have to want to do this.
3) Wasteland makes mana. Stone Rain, not so much.
4) Wasteland is at its most powerful when employed on turns one and two. Stone Rain can be cast on turn two, but this is far less likely to happen.

The first three points cover the opportunity cost of including Wasteland in your deck, versus a dedicated land destruction spell. There's almost no cost to doing so, assuming the rest of your manabase is well constructed, and even when there aren't juicy targets to blow up, Wasteland is still useful in helping you cast spells. If every Stone Rain was also a Stone Rain // Wayfarer's Bauble split card, the Stone Rain portion was colourless, and cost {1} or {2} instead of {2}{R}, you might hear me yelling about that card, too.

However, as printed, Stone Rain tends to be more of a sideboard card - not unlike Negate - that is borderline maindeck-worthy, but will be useless in some number of matchups. There's a real, non-zero opportunity cost incurred when someone chooses to run Stone Rain - that's a slot that could've gone to, say, Cunning Sparkmage, or Pillar of Flame, or whatever your 23rd spell was going to be. I'm fine with giving people access to tools like land destruction, especially when they really want it, so long as they have to consciously make that choice for its inclusion. At the risk of invoking another blowback, I'm going to toss out the word 'free' here again - Wasteland's opportunity cost is so low as to be nearly free when it comes to deck construction.

Regarding the fourth point, nobody complains about Tectonic Edge in cube because Villain was given a chance to play Magic for a couple of turns. There's a huge difference in the games where you can cast a few spells before your mana is stunted, and games in which your mana is disrupted immediately, your opponent continues to play board-affecting spells while you're forced to sit and watch, and then you don't resume playing Magic until turn five or six, when you draw a land that produces your splash colour. In the former situation, you can continue to make use of your permanents and try to maneuver yourself out of harm's way. In the latter, welp. You know that decision tree that you were analyzing? Yeah, someone took a big ol' chainsaw to that, so don't worry about it anymore. Solitaire's a great game.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm sorry to keep arguing against you, but to me the term bifurcation feels overly strong. I've never seen any great divide with my cube aligning into two camps. It's been very much a continuum, with almost all the decks falling somewhere between fully two-color decks and fully three-color decks, with a good number of two-color + splash decks.

I think we are talking about two different things. I'm contemplating no uld and a different mana configuration, to see how far one can push "colorless utility land greed" vs "color fixing greed". I'm asking what knobs and levers could be used to encourage that sort of strategic divide, if any.

I wouldn't assume an existing configuration to be very good at encouraging those relationships, because it would not have been designed with the intention of doing so.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
The lower and tighter your mana becomes, the more of a opportunity cost wasteland takes. Of course the decks that are best suited to take advantage of wasteland are (besides slow, durdly decks with Loam or whatever) decks with low, tight mana. These decks are running as few mana sources as possible already, they certainly aren't cutting a basic to play wasteland (or any other colorless land), unless they are mono-colored, which has its own drawbacks.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I know I'm a bit late to the party here, but wasteland is almost never used to color screw my drafters. It's barely ever knocking out a splash color, mostly used early to keep both players at lower land total, or to kill a manland
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Not to pick on you, Chris, but anecdotal evidence like that from yourself and others doesn't mean much without additional context about the skill level of your playgroup (at least, not to me). If I were playing in your cube, for example, you can be sure I'd be using Wastelands almost exclusively to cut people off their splash colours. That's what it does best, after all, over something like Tectonic Edge.

To rephrase my statement, this discussion about Wasteland is more about what we as cube designers are enabling our playgroup to do, via the cards that we've curated in our list. Whether or not our drafters are actually capable of pulling off said tactics is a function of many other variables - how Spikey they are, whether they see the interactions at all, how mana colours people are playing on average, and all that. So, to me, "I put it there, but no Bad Stuff has happened yet" doesn't mean we can necessarily wash our hands of the problem.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
The lower and tighter your mana becomes, the more of a opportunity cost wasteland takes. Of course the decks that are best suited to take advantage of wasteland are (besides slow, durdly decks with Loam or whatever) decks with low, tight mana. These decks are running as few mana sources as possible already, they certainly aren't cutting a basic to play wasteland (or any other colorless land), unless they are mono-colored, which has its own drawbacks.

I think this is a really interesting argument, with a lot in there to unpack. It spurred another thought that's related to your point about opportunity cost, but is more about what environments we can create where running Wasteland is fair game. Basically, there's a correlation between a) the mana curve of your entire cube list, b) the abundance and strength of the mana fixing available, and c) the viability of running Wastelands without leading to massive feel-bads. If someone were to build a cube that actually resembles the legacy constructed format - i.e., most of the spells (75%) in the cube cost one or two mana, a smaller amount cost three, and a tiny sprinkling of cards cost four or five - and something like Aoret's unlimited fetch solution were available, this would be an ideal environment in which to let Wastelands run amok. At that point, there are real decisions about whether to draft and run colourless nonbasics like Wasteland, because the curves of both your decks and your opponents' are so low that 1) there are fewer colourless costs in your spells to be paid, and 2) taking your opponent off a land early doesn't necessarily mean it's game over, both because spells are cheap and fixing is plentiful.

I'm not sure really where to go with that, but I wanted to point out that I think it's more than just the mana curve of one specific deck that's packing Wastelands; it's whether everyone else is also running sleek, low-curve decks that factors into both the "fun factor" equation, and the opportunity cost equation.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I'd also add that I am running 5 Brainstorms, which do a non-zero amount of work in allowing a player to adjust the number of lands that they draw.

I made another intro to the video (and 10 minutes of studying aggro creatures / decks in standard), but one of the points was: if you're not a Wasteland deck, there are 3 of them spread across 7 drafters. Your opponent is about 1 in 4 to draw it before they hit Tec Edge mana (assuming they have one Wasteland), and then to get screwed by it you need to have kept a land capable of getting screwed by it. That's not going to happen a lot per draft.

Note that many cards (Tec Edge, Mutavault, Factory.... Volrath's Stronghold) hold the same opportunity costs that you mentioned regarding deckbuilding, with the difference here being that Wasteland requires an actual draft pick as opposed to a lower value ULD pick.

If anyone has any thoughts on the Wasteland variants I discussed, would be interested in hashing it out.
 
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