General Breaking Singleton
- Thread starter ahadabans
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LOL. I have never even remotely been interested in the competitive magic scene. I have no desire.
What I really need to do is find guys that actually like the game. My group is ambivalent. They played because I spent all this time making a cube and they figured it would be a waste to not play it, plus they had fun. But that only got me so far. Clearly that effect has worn off.
My group is (was) hyper midrange. Pretty much that is all anyone ever made. Occasionally, you'd see some guys make a control deck that did well. And even less often you'd see a true aggro deck that was not some flavor of aggressive midrange/tempo. In short, my cube is/was all about midrange and I run no walkers. Now, could someone come in and exploit my meta (revealing that control or aggro or both are better than midrange?). Maybe.
But if we look at the traditional Roshambo diagram (aggro > control > midrange > aggro), midrange's only weakness is to control. Do walkers fix that? Maybe to some extent (they are broken CA engines after all), but if you also take away some of the more broken control staples (thinking finishers mainly), do you still have that issue? This is all just theory and I'd be curious to hear other viewpoints on it. It's an interesting discussion. What do walker's do to a cube and how have cubes evolved because of them? I don't know because I don't run them.
From my perspective, control only wins the midrange matchup because of superior CA. But if midrange has CA engines (things like mentor of the meek or masked admirers - both weak options to be sure, but I'm just shooting from the hip right now - I'm supposed to be working not replying to posts), does that matchup still remain lopsided? Without better CA, control is just running the same finishers that midrange generally runs. Where is it's advantage? I guess I just see the whole theatre thing as being really fuzzy in cube and you can really blur the lines hard with card choices in your cube. Hell, if you wanted to you could remove all counter spells effectively making a traditionally important component of control non-existent.
I guess my point is you just have so many design options and because of that these traditionally "absolute" Magic rules like Roshambo - or whatever else people say is fundamentally part of the game - really don't have to apply if you don't want them to. My take on it anyway. Again, it's what I like about cube. Things I think are stupid in magic I can work to remove or at least greatly minimize by design choices.
CML
Contributor
good luck doing one without the other. Starcraft is more interesting and enduring when it's not $$$$$$$$$$$$$SD MONEY MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and you'll meet cooler people. i have no idea how a cube would ever progress past a certain point without a playgroup of stronger players, which makes me especially impressed at the design efforts on this site (king Wadds et al.) that evolved in the absence of that.
on a related note, a serious complaint about modern set design is that the designers (MaRo in particular) are too insulated from the realities of competitive magic. given that this is the toughest part of the game to balance (you could argue the other parts of the game require no balance, or are fundamentally imbalanced), you'd think they'd devote the lion's share of their time to doing so, what with all the meretricious advertising for GP Boring Standard and PT Fuck This Limited Format, but no, instead we get fucking idiots like ken nagle jerking off to Kruphix. GRRRRARAGF
getting back on topic, i should admit, i never thought of adding a second City of Brass until this evening. i'm kind of one of them.
That's why they have separated design and development, which is the biggest fucking deal compared to almost every other games company. MaRo doesn't have to be good at competitive magic, but the development and rules teams do. If they aren't, that's where the problem is.
Also, on roshambo:
I suspect most of us learnt to play and are used to the three-fold roshambo model of control > combo > aggro > control. To talk about midrange we sort of need to go to the metagame clock, where, if aggro is 12 and combo is 4, then midrange is 2ish, so Combo > Midrange > Aggro > Aggro-control > Control > Combo (cf: here).
Wizards have been talking about a new five-fold model, of Aggro > Midrange > Ramp/Combo > Control > Disruptive Aggro > Aggro. My first observation is that disruptive aggro is basically 'offensive aggro-control' as opposed to 'blue deck that has creatures that can attack', and also that the cycle is then reversed, which talks a lot about how they want things to play these days. Secondly, from experience, combo and raw control seem to have a much smaller slice of the clock these days; combo tends to be more directly hose-able, and control is just weaker. Ramp basically sits closer to midrange on the clock, as its still about creatures a whole bunch, whereas combo . This is probably the move away from aggro-control and towards disruptive aggro as well. Thirdly, from comparing that earlier link and what wizards define as midrange (here), we see there's been some movement there. dbuel defines it as wrath decks (more or less), whereas wizards are saying it's incremental value decks. I suspect some amount of nomenclature creep here, as wrath decks are probably disruptive aggro these days, which beats what midrange beats in the old clock, and the incremental value grinding midrange used to do before/while wrathing is now it's own thing.
So what does that have to do with planeswalkers? Well, if aggro is at 12 still, I reckon it looks something like this:
12 Aggro
1
2 Midrange
3
4 Ramp
5
6 Combo
7
8 Control
9
10 Disruptive Aggro
11
12 Aggro
I am not a smart enough man to tell you if those are quite right, but the clock already looks denser. Creature strategies range from about 9 to about 5. Planeswalkers range from about 1 to about 11 (I'd guess; maybe there's a gap at 6ish, although we probably dodge that via the walker being the combo with gilder bairn, proliferate, etc). The thing is, again, I'm guess because I am not good at magic, that limited play probably ranges from 1 to about 4, with another blip at 9-10ish, as combo is hard to have propagate well enough, raw control doesn't usually work, and aggro isn't good enough. Midrange is happily at 2, which means it is killed by things in the previous six hours: most of which is missing in limited play. We keep talking about boosting aggro, which helps against walkers, but probably means we're running walkers that are at the midrange end of the spectrum, or possibly some walkers from 10ish, but not control.
Vaguely terrible conclusion: I don't think that control is too good cf: aggro not good enough, I think, all else being equal, the natural way that limited works skews away from aggro (and combo and control) and that leaves midrange unpredated; interesting planeswalkers exacerbate this issue.
More sensible conclusion: you can't look at planeswalkers from a control/combo/aggro spectrum, because they're designed under a different paradigm.
I suspect most of us learnt to play and are used to the three-fold roshambo model of control > combo > aggro > control. To talk about midrange we sort of need to go to the metagame clock, where, if aggro is 12 and combo is 4, then midrange is 2ish, so Combo > Midrange > Aggro > Aggro-control > Control > Combo (cf: here).
Wizards have been talking about a new five-fold model, of Aggro > Midrange > Ramp/Combo > Control > Disruptive Aggro > Aggro. My first observation is that disruptive aggro is basically 'offensive aggro-control' as opposed to 'blue deck that has creatures that can attack', and also that the cycle is then reversed, which talks a lot about how they want things to play these days. Secondly, from experience, combo and raw control seem to have a much smaller slice of the clock these days; combo tends to be more directly hose-able, and control is just weaker. Ramp basically sits closer to midrange on the clock, as its still about creatures a whole bunch, whereas combo . This is probably the move away from aggro-control and towards disruptive aggro as well. Thirdly, from comparing that earlier link and what wizards define as midrange (here), we see there's been some movement there. dbuel defines it as wrath decks (more or less), whereas wizards are saying it's incremental value decks. I suspect some amount of nomenclature creep here, as wrath decks are probably disruptive aggro these days, which beats what midrange beats in the old clock, and the incremental value grinding midrange used to do before/while wrathing is now it's own thing.
So what does that have to do with planeswalkers? Well, if aggro is at 12 still, I reckon it looks something like this:
12 Aggro
1
2 Midrange
3
4 Ramp
5
6 Combo
7
8 Control
9
10 Disruptive Aggro
11
12 Aggro
I am not a smart enough man to tell you if those are quite right, but the clock already looks denser. Creature strategies range from about 9 to about 5. Planeswalkers range from about 1 to about 11 (I'd guess; maybe there's a gap at 6ish, although we probably dodge that via the walker being the combo with gilder bairn, proliferate, etc). The thing is, again, I'm guess because I am not good at magic, that limited play probably ranges from 1 to about 4, with another blip at 9-10ish, as combo is hard to have propagate well enough, raw control doesn't usually work, and aggro isn't good enough. Midrange is happily at 2, which means it is killed by things in the previous six hours: most of which is missing in limited play. We keep talking about boosting aggro, which helps against walkers, but probably means we're running walkers that are at the midrange end of the spectrum, or possibly some walkers from 10ish, but not control.
Vaguely terrible conclusion: I don't think that control is too good cf: aggro not good enough, I think, all else being equal, the natural way that limited works skews away from aggro (and combo and control) and that leaves midrange unpredated; interesting planeswalkers exacerbate this issue.
More sensible conclusion: you can't look at planeswalkers from a control/combo/aggro spectrum, because they're designed under a different paradigm.
He probably knows more about competitive magic than me, and I just wrote the above from first principles and my limited knowledge.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
The terminology has changed a ton. I remember in old Dojo articles (circa: 1998 maybe?) they would refer to deck archetypes differently. Control differentiated between two types of deck: pure control, which referred specifically to blue based decks that countered your spells and board control which killed all your stuff. "Aggro" was a term for decks that protected an early threat with disruption. The decks we would call aggro now were called beatdown instead and the term midrange didn't even exist. So, it went something like this:
Beatdown (now called aggro, including decks like suicide black or Stompy)
Board Control (now just called control or midrange, depending on the approach, including decks like Mono-black Control or Rec/Sur)
Combo (still called combo, including decks like Bargain combo)
Pure Control (now doesn't really exist I guess, including decks like draw-go)
Aggro (now called fish or tempo, including decks like CONtroll or Sligh)
I think the theory was each deck had the advantage against the two archetypes below it.
I don't know how planeswalkers fit in here either.
Beatdown (now called aggro, including decks like suicide black or Stompy)
Board Control (now just called control or midrange, depending on the approach, including decks like Mono-black Control or Rec/Sur)
Combo (still called combo, including decks like Bargain combo)
Pure Control (now doesn't really exist I guess, including decks like draw-go)
Aggro (now called fish or tempo, including decks like CONtroll or Sligh)
I think the theory was each deck had the advantage against the two archetypes below it.
I don't know how planeswalkers fit in here either.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Hey all, new to the forum.
I pretty much agree 100% with this. If it helps at all, with my cube we play pretty much play all multi-player games, so the traditional roshambo cycle you described doesn’t work for us at all. Aggro just can’t win. It also sounds like you are looking to break singleton on a few solid role players, which will help enable breaking that cycle.
I gave up on Aggro* because it just doesn’t work in a multiplayer setting, and focused on aggro-control*. That way I have the pressure of aggro decks, but aggro-control is more interactive and fun to play, and can survive past the early game to grind out two other players, if it needs to, with card advantage.
Another thing that I did was try to reign in control and midrange. I feel reining in control is not too difficult, but midrange is much harder to do so. Some of the people I cube with just seem really drawn to midrange/ramp decks. My solutions for the problem were too:
- Minimize Planeswalker presence
- Limit artifact ramp
- Diversify traditional ramp
- Limit the number of naturally big midrange creatures
- Diversify the ways midrange creatures became midrange (e.g. runningwerewolves)
As for role players, my three best role players are: brainstorm, gravecrawler, and scryb ranger.
- Brainstorm, for Blue based aggro-control decks concerned with the top card of the library (delver/shardless agent ect.).
- Gravecrawler, as a source of recursive card advantage for a number of Black based controllish “graveyard matters” decks.
- Scryb ranger, for Green based ramp and landfall midrange decks.
Anyways, I hope some of that can be of use.
*by aggro I mean a deck that wants to win in the developmental stages of the game
* by aggro-control I mean a deck that can win the developmental stages of the game, or can take a more card advantage, controlling route to win in the mid or late game.
Grillo_parlante,
Your cube design is right up my alley. My group also plays a lot of multi-player for similar reasons.
Is your cube posted on cubetutor? I'd love to peruse it.
Scryb Ranger is a cool card I built a casual deck around years ago. I'm on the fence about adding him to my cube though only because of my general dislike for protection. With that said, blue is certainly the least broken color to have protection from. Thanks for the suggestion.
Your cube design is right up my alley. My group also plays a lot of multi-player for similar reasons.
Is your cube posted on cubetutor? I'd love to peruse it.
Scryb Ranger is a cool card I built a casual deck around years ago. I'm on the fence about adding him to my cube though only because of my general dislike for protection. With that said, blue is certainly the least broken color to have protection from. Thanks for the suggestion.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
It is, but I haven't updated it in ages. When I do though, I will let you know. It’s pretty simple to describe though, if you want some general ideas to explore. It started out as a typical power cube, until I found this website, than became a ripetide cube, until the unique problems I had with multiplayer games caused me to have to make changes.
Being a ripetide shell, it tried to promote aggro, stay low CC, run gravecrawler ect. The problem I had was the aggro packages just didn't work for me, due to the multiplayer environment. It’s even worse for us, because I had lowered the CC for spells, thereby hurting control, but because aggro wasn't competitive/fun, and people are drawn to planeswalkers, midrange became dominate. Midrange enablers like signets and wildfire, combined with beef like polukranos, would just create a glut on the ground, extending games by 10-20 minutes, and making a clear "best strategy."
I read some posts on this forum about how oppressive signets are, and cut a lot of the artifact ramp I run. Doing so freed up a lot of design space, so I took some ideas from modern masters, and starting putting in U/W artifact aggro cards and bounce/self-bounce (tradewind rider/esperzoa/blue ninjitsu creatures, the two strixs). Suddenly my blink effects were much better, blue was much more aggressive, and shardless agent a potential source of major card advantage. Break singleton for two or three delver of secrets, and blue has an actual decent creature base that it can combine with white, green, or red to make up for any aggro elements its missing, while bringing blue disruption to the mix, and it can produce the card advantage it needs to grind out a long game if it needs. Now, you suddenly have an aggro-control base in blue, capable of going in three different directions that’s interactive and fun.
The other big breakthrough was I revamped my red and green creature section. Some of my players love ramp and midrange to the point where I think they would draft subpar decks rather than change strategies, so I figured I would make them work for it. A lot of the big green/red midrange beef was taken out and replaced with cards you had to actually earn their size with. Innistrad blocks werewolves or cards like falkenrath marauders are perfect for this. Many of them come into play as small creatures, but become midrange once the player accomplishes some other criteria. It’s my way of saying "look, I know you are going to draft and play midrange.dec, but you are going to have to make some interactive decisions to make it happen, and there are some strategic flaws here other plays can exploit."
As for the ranger, he was originally part of my campaign to diversify ramp effects, because that was another plague upon my cube, but it turned out a lot of decks wanted him. A lot of the ripetide cubes I see run 2-3 steppe lynx, 1-2 plated geopede, and usually an avenger of zendikar, knight of the reliquary, and a rampaging baloths, and mine was no exception. It turns out he is really good in a W/G landfall deck along with any of those cards, and is a great alternate ramp card that requires good drafting and gameplay. The flash on him makes him great at punishing people that want to force there wolves to transform, and he carries equipment. Running two or three of him also means you could start running a little faeries sub-theme in blue and black if you wish (I don't, don't have the space for it). The only thing I don't like about him is the pro blue, but in this case, I look the other way.
You've really temped me to take a second look at some of these cards. Honestly, I'm torn on a lot of it though. DFC are hard for me to accept (having to either have another card sleeved or constantly pull the card in and out of it's sleeve - not to mention I'm playing a retro style cube and this mechanic is really just a fish out of water from a theme perspective). Landfall is another mechanic that I've never been able to get behind, but to be fair I've not tested it enough. Ninjutsu is a personal favorite but other than deep hours, I didn't think there was enough quality options (especially in blue). Then again, that is still the "power max" mindset talking and I need to realize pretty much any card can work if the power level of the environment supports it. You are selling me on Ranger though.
Again, if you get your cube updated, I'm totally going to steal some ideas from it.
Again, if you get your cube updated, I'm totally going to steal some ideas from it.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, you don't have to go the card flipping route if you don't want to. Philosophically, the idea is to just diversify how your players go around getting their mid-range fat by not making it too easy. The reason my players were drafting midrange.dec is because it’s an easy deck to draft with essentially no real weaknesses that plays a lot of sweet cards, and they were going to continue drafting it until given a reason not to. They had to see someone else having more fun/winning with a different type of deck.
If you go the werewolves route though, do not run Huntmaster of the Fells, as he is basically a walker.
With my players, they seem to really like the ninjitsu and cascade mechanics, so you might find that even if ninjitsu isn't particularly well supported or powerful in your cube that players will still like playing those cards regardless. The ninjitsu cards are kind of like pestermite, in that they seem really underwhelming at first glance, but are a lot of fun to figure out and "get" someone with, and that fun is a big part of their appeal in my cube. I would suggest at least trying them, especially if they are a mechanic you already like.
If you run the ranger, you might have to explain to your players exactly how he ramps and some of his other tricks. My players were kind of stuck in the frame of mind that ramp means kodama's reach.
I’ll post my cube if I update it, but I’ll tell you now it’s more modern than retro. If you want to keep things retro, it might be easier for you to just take some of the underlining premises I used to solve the same problems that you seem to be facing, but apply them in a way that fits in a retro environment.
If you go the werewolves route though, do not run Huntmaster of the Fells, as he is basically a walker.
With my players, they seem to really like the ninjitsu and cascade mechanics, so you might find that even if ninjitsu isn't particularly well supported or powerful in your cube that players will still like playing those cards regardless. The ninjitsu cards are kind of like pestermite, in that they seem really underwhelming at first glance, but are a lot of fun to figure out and "get" someone with, and that fun is a big part of their appeal in my cube. I would suggest at least trying them, especially if they are a mechanic you already like.
If you run the ranger, you might have to explain to your players exactly how he ramps and some of his other tricks. My players were kind of stuck in the frame of mind that ramp means kodama's reach.
I’ll post my cube if I update it, but I’ll tell you now it’s more modern than retro. If you want to keep things retro, it might be easier for you to just take some of the underlining premises I used to solve the same problems that you seem to be facing, but apply them in a way that fits in a retro environment.
Your point on midrange being easy to draft really hits home with me. And your solution is an elegant one. Even if I take things in a slightly different direction, seeing lists and how you constructed them (in particular, which "staples" have you excluded - this is key because some of these cards really define the environment). Anyway, I realize it's tons of work to update cube tutor. I still haven't even uploaded my cube to cube tutor, so I'm a total hypocrite here. I have no room to give you crap about it.
My group is very casual and a lot of subtleties require me demonstrating them. Ranger will be no different and that's no problem honestly. I play with really smart people and they pick stuff up really fast. I make a deck and they see a mechanic I'm exploiting and then I'll see some creative flavor of it the next draft. Not a copy cat mind you but an off-spring. I love seeing that actually. When I first built my cube, I won most of the time. Now I can go sessions without winning any matches. I don't care though. I just enjoy playing (I also tend to try and push the limits of my cube to see if I can make bizarre things work - so my decks are often super experimental).
Synergy is really what I think the best aspect of Magic is, so I want to maximize that in cube as much as I can. And it sounds like your cube has a similar philosophy.
Thanks again for sharing. This has been a great discussion.
My group is very casual and a lot of subtleties require me demonstrating them. Ranger will be no different and that's no problem honestly. I play with really smart people and they pick stuff up really fast. I make a deck and they see a mechanic I'm exploiting and then I'll see some creative flavor of it the next draft. Not a copy cat mind you but an off-spring. I love seeing that actually. When I first built my cube, I won most of the time. Now I can go sessions without winning any matches. I don't care though. I just enjoy playing (I also tend to try and push the limits of my cube to see if I can make bizarre things work - so my decks are often super experimental).
Synergy is really what I think the best aspect of Magic is, so I want to maximize that in cube as much as I can. And it sounds like your cube has a similar philosophy.
Thanks again for sharing. This has been a great discussion.
Which cards have you guys been doubling up on for your cubes (aside from lands)? I just spent like the last hour going through a bunch of cards and making cuts here and there with my new additions. I'm currently at multiples of each of these:
I'm gonna probably swap out the 2nd Traveler for another Champion of the Parish since he's pretty whatever for me and because every Khan I'm adding from FRF (all but Daghatar) is a human. I had triple Gravecrawler for a while, but in certain drafts it became way too good if someone was experienced with my Cube. The only triples I have at the moment are the Riptide special of Pod and Brainstorm which I don't think will ever change.
Since aggro is a little pushed in my cube, double Augur has been awesome giving those decks exactly what they want in the early game. Scry 2 is sweet, and Magma Jet has been great in so many different decks. Burn, Control, any red deck that wants to fix it's draws loves seeing it. Sometimes just the scry action is enough to justify it in the final 40. Like, I ran a Mardu Control deck in my last draft and Jet was incredibly clutch when it came to hitting the necessary land drops/colors to play my spells. I think I went double Bonesplitter after viewing Eric's Cube a while back and haven't looked back since; it's basically the perfect equipment. Finally, I love Perilous Myr. So simple but full of value. It's an interesting little roadblock. I'm especially excited to set up some stupid loop with Alesha, Who Smiles at Death once I get a copy.
What are some things you guys have been doubling up on that's worked out well?
I'm gonna probably swap out the 2nd Traveler for another Champion of the Parish since he's pretty whatever for me and because every Khan I'm adding from FRF (all but Daghatar) is a human. I had triple Gravecrawler for a while, but in certain drafts it became way too good if someone was experienced with my Cube. The only triples I have at the moment are the Riptide special of Pod and Brainstorm which I don't think will ever change.
Since aggro is a little pushed in my cube, double Augur has been awesome giving those decks exactly what they want in the early game. Scry 2 is sweet, and Magma Jet has been great in so many different decks. Burn, Control, any red deck that wants to fix it's draws loves seeing it. Sometimes just the scry action is enough to justify it in the final 40. Like, I ran a Mardu Control deck in my last draft and Jet was incredibly clutch when it came to hitting the necessary land drops/colors to play my spells. I think I went double Bonesplitter after viewing Eric's Cube a while back and haven't looked back since; it's basically the perfect equipment. Finally, I love Perilous Myr. So simple but full of value. It's an interesting little roadblock. I'm especially excited to set up some stupid loop with Alesha, Who Smiles at Death once I get a copy.
What are some things you guys have been doubling up on that's worked out well?
Also double shocklands and fetches.
These have all been great except I'm not too impressed with O-ring any more. But I like having very flexible removal running around.
Laz
Developer
We are mostly on the same page I think, sharing a lot of those doubles and triples (Brainstorm, Pod, Ooze, Bonesplitter, Crawler, Carrion Feeder). Double Blood Artist scares me too much to try.
Looking at my list, I have a lot of doubles... Some of the duplicates are because I am pushing secondary aspects of colour identities, so there isn't a density of cards, but others are just because the card plays so much better than alternatives.
Smoothing out aggro:
Solid equipment and easy-to-cast potent 1-drops are all designed to empower aggro, and allow it to come together more often
Being Human:
Champion is obvious, and is one of the centre-pieces of the Human tribal support. Noble Hierarch is in there over a mana-"elf", since Human matters, and it is so much more exciting than a Llanowar Elves (ok, the alternative is actually Avacyn's Pilgram, but shh, this helps more decks).
Red go-wide:
There are surprisingly few decent red token makers...
Spells-matter:
Spells are sweet. In addition to these, some of the Prowess guys might get doubled up if they prove to play really well.
Artifacts:
I need an artifact density to support Tinker, and it is a pretty irreplaceable effect. Mindstone also helps Wildfire, as a distinctly fair mana-rock. I wanted a couple of Stone Rain effects, and Pillage has utility against artifacts, so it gets doubled up on over say, Molten Rain.
Graveyard:
Bet you can't guess which zone I am adding explicit support to...
Other:
Carrion Feeder is a sac outlet for decks that like that effect. Oblivion Ring is a neat catch-all. I don't have a Burning of Xinye. I needed a way to deal with 4 toughness creatures, and like modal cards. Brainstorm is awesome. So is Pod.
Yikes! I had no idea I had so many duplicates until I looked at the list. I am willing to stand behind nearly all of them though, they are genuinely what I feel the environment needed more of, and produce really interesting decks.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I only run doubles, no triples.
Hmm... Come to think of it, I haven't looked into doubling gold cards yet. Maybe there's something I want to double. I'll have a look.
Anyway, as for a motivation.
Champion of the Parish: there's a lot of incidental humans, and Champion of the Parish does a get job at providing your one-drops with reach. If you find the second, you're really starting to pay attention to creature types, which is a fun thing to do in draft every once in a while.
Nyx-Fleece Ram: Abzan is the backbone of my enchantment theme, though blue and red have a few enchantments too, to make the theme viable in other colors. The Ram is my only enchantment creature in white, because it's by far the best fit, considering that constellation is about accumulating advantage over time with triggers. Furthermore it's one of the few playable walls that can actually attack in case of Doran.
Blade Splicer: Both Esper and Grixis have a strong artifact subtheme, but I'm trying to keep it as non-poisonous as possible. White is also the home of aggro, and combines with black for the super sweet (at least that's what I think) attrition archetype abusing the likes of Braids, Cabal Minion and Smokestack. Blade Splicer is a very, very happy intersection of those three very divergent archetypes.
Cloudfin Raptor: without a question the one-drop of choice in blue for me. It attacks well and plays into the Temur +1/+1 counter subtheme (which it shares with Naya).
Gravecrawler: ah, the other creature type I support in my cube. I even run the
Zombie lord, because it's also a decent enough roadblock on its own. Of course Gravecrawler goes into that same attrition based archetype I mentioned before, but it also combines with red in the Grixis "sacrificing minions, what isn't it good for" archetype.
Young Pyromancer: ah, who doesn't love this guy? Great and one of a kind in Izzet spells. A fantastic build-around-me two-of.
Eidolon of Blossoms: a bit of a strange card to double up maybe, but drawing cards is key in the constellation deck, and this is one of the best on-theme ways to do it in Abzan colors. Sometimes it's just a Striped Bear, sometimes it can go nuts.
Bonesplitter: perfect equipment. They won't ever print anything as remotely efficient and aggro-friendly, yet still balanced again, so this is a near mandatory two-of for everyone considering breaking singleton if you ask me.
Cogwork Librarian: won't ever see play (I wish it cost instead and will probably end up replacing it with two fakes that do just that) but the effect is too sweet to ignore. Worthy inclusions in any cube.
Lands: alpha duals are out, because I think they're too good (virtually no downside at all compared to a basic land), but fetches and shock duals are golden. Recently however I acquired one each of the Khans fetches (finally affordable fetches!), and I dislike playing one proxied and one real fetch, so I'm down to one. I will probably save up to buy a second fetch eventually. Since I run a wedge/shard themed cube triple fixing is important. I run two customs for each supported three-color combination, and two trilands.
Hmm... Come to think of it, I haven't looked into doubling gold cards yet. Maybe there's something I want to double. I'll have a look.
Anyway, as for a motivation.
Champion of the Parish: there's a lot of incidental humans, and Champion of the Parish does a get job at providing your one-drops with reach. If you find the second, you're really starting to pay attention to creature types, which is a fun thing to do in draft every once in a while.
Nyx-Fleece Ram: Abzan is the backbone of my enchantment theme, though blue and red have a few enchantments too, to make the theme viable in other colors. The Ram is my only enchantment creature in white, because it's by far the best fit, considering that constellation is about accumulating advantage over time with triggers. Furthermore it's one of the few playable walls that can actually attack in case of Doran.
Blade Splicer: Both Esper and Grixis have a strong artifact subtheme, but I'm trying to keep it as non-poisonous as possible. White is also the home of aggro, and combines with black for the super sweet (at least that's what I think) attrition archetype abusing the likes of Braids, Cabal Minion and Smokestack. Blade Splicer is a very, very happy intersection of those three very divergent archetypes.
Cloudfin Raptor: without a question the one-drop of choice in blue for me. It attacks well and plays into the Temur +1/+1 counter subtheme (which it shares with Naya).
Gravecrawler: ah, the other creature type I support in my cube. I even run the
Zombie lord, because it's also a decent enough roadblock on its own. Of course Gravecrawler goes into that same attrition based archetype I mentioned before, but it also combines with red in the Grixis "sacrificing minions, what isn't it good for" archetype.Young Pyromancer: ah, who doesn't love this guy? Great and one of a kind in Izzet spells. A fantastic build-around-me two-of.
Eidolon of Blossoms: a bit of a strange card to double up maybe, but drawing cards is key in the constellation deck, and this is one of the best on-theme ways to do it in Abzan colors. Sometimes it's just a Striped Bear, sometimes it can go nuts.
Bonesplitter: perfect equipment. They won't ever print anything as remotely efficient and aggro-friendly, yet still balanced again, so this is a near mandatory two-of for everyone considering breaking singleton if you ask me.
Cogwork Librarian: won't ever see play (I wish it cost
instead and will probably end up replacing it with two fakes that do just that) but the effect is too sweet to ignore. Worthy inclusions in any cube.Lands: alpha duals are out, because I think they're too good (virtually no downside at all compared to a basic land), but fetches and shock duals are golden. Recently however I acquired one each of the Khans fetches (finally affordable fetches!), and I dislike playing one proxied and one real fetch, so I'm down to one. I will probably save up to buy a second fetch eventually. Since I run a wedge/shard themed cube triple fixing is important. I run two customs for each supported three-color combination, and two trilands.
Double Blood Artist is a little dangerous, I would tend to agree, especially in lower power environments. I'm currently running Falkenrath Noble in lieu of a second Artist, and he's holding his own, despite being a Dreaded Four Drop.
In my head, I keep oscillating on the correct number of Oblivion Rings being zero, one, or two. At three mana for sorcery-speed spot removal, it's actually fairly clunky, especially if all you want to do is remove a growing Champion of the Parish who's already hit you for five. On the other hand, it removes pretty much any problem permanent, no questions asked. I'm currently at one copy, but I don't know if that's right.
In my head, I keep oscillating on the correct number of Oblivion Rings being zero, one, or two. At three mana for sorcery-speed spot removal, it's actually fairly clunky, especially if all you want to do is remove a growing Champion of the Parish who's already hit you for five. On the other hand, it removes pretty much any problem permanent, no questions asked. I'm currently at one copy, but I don't know if that's right.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm at one copy of Banishing Light. I really like the "until ~ leaves the battlefield" wording, because it avoids the unintuitive (at least for some of my players) "ability on the stack, destroy my Oblivion Ring" shenanigans. I actually reworded Parallax Wave and made a proxy with the new wording before including it.
Not to mention it only targets your opponent's permanents, so you can't "Redirect" it by destroying your own last permanent, which is also unintuitive. I recently switched to Banishing Light, too.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I would, but the FNM copies of ORing I have look so sweet
My multiples: (Oh good lord this is a lot)
and 2 of each fetchland and shock land
I am doubled up on fetches/shocks, and running these:
Seems pretty similar to the rest of the lists, though I have found double DRS to work well so far. A little extra graveyard control can help keep those decks in check, plus it's just an awesome card.
Looks like a lot of you are running triple pod. I have had a really hard time getting a pod deck to come together in my cube (as in, it never has). Is 3 the magic number for that to have a chance to happen?
Seems pretty similar to the rest of the lists, though I have found double DRS to work well so far. A little extra graveyard control can help keep those decks in check, plus it's just an awesome card.
Looks like a lot of you are running triple pod. I have had a really hard time getting a pod deck to come together in my cube (as in, it never has). Is 3 the magic number for that to have a chance to happen?
I haven't yet had the nut double Blood Artist deck pop up yet. Most of my players play EDH, so they value him pretty highly b/c they realize how powerful the effect is. If I see it happen more frequently and it becomes oppressive, I'll definitely swap one out b/c it definitely seems nutty with a recursion engine ala Feeder/Crawler.
I guess the consensus here is that multiple Champion is awesome, definitely gonna include it in my next update. I've wanted to emulate Jason's Steppe Lynx package for a while to push aggro a bit more, but I just don't have the fetchland density yet to pull it off. It's probably the best way for me to push non-Black aggro forward in general. I was completely ignoring Experiment One all this time, but he'd be pretty awesome a a two-of to get some form of Gx Aggro going, especially with the new Warden of the First Tree. Selesnya Humans with Warden/Ooze/Champion? I might be interested in bumping up my Bloodsoaked Champions to 2 once I get the 2nd Champion of the Parish in there.
I had gone double Pyromancer/double Delver for a while, but the deck only came together once for me. I''m kind of afraid to put it back together b/c of all the new Prowess guys I've added recently. I don't think the 2nd Delver will be back, but I do love Pyromancer and token producers so I'll likely find a slot for him.
@Onderzeebot, I really love Enchantress type decks (in EDH I run Karametra Enchantress), so I could definitely see myself doubling up on Eidolons in the near future as well. GB Constellation is one of my favorite Standard decks to come out in the last year, would love to see a similar effect work in my environment. Gonna look into more non-creature forms of ramp to include. I'm guessing that you've extended it through Abzan since you're building around wedges. What white enchantments are you running?
@Tyrole, I've had 4 at one point, but that seemed to be too much in a 360 shell. Since going to 3, it's been way more awesome. You pretty much only need two to really get it going. Three is usually overkill unless you have a super sick chain lined up. Seeing 1 every 120 cards seems about right to me.
Additionally, to deal with multiples of creatures getting out of hand, I've had good success with a singleton Sever the Bloodline. 4 mana is a fair amount to exile multiple creatures in one shot, comes through pretty much all the time and has Flashback which is super sweet. It's actually been fantastic in dealing with all the recursive shenanigans and cleaning up a mucked up board post Grave Titan.
I guess the consensus here is that multiple Champion is awesome, definitely gonna include it in my next update. I've wanted to emulate Jason's Steppe Lynx package for a while to push aggro a bit more, but I just don't have the fetchland density yet to pull it off. It's probably the best way for me to push non-Black aggro forward in general. I was completely ignoring Experiment One all this time, but he'd be pretty awesome a a two-of to get some form of Gx Aggro going, especially with the new Warden of the First Tree. Selesnya Humans with Warden/Ooze/Champion? I might be interested in bumping up my Bloodsoaked Champions to 2 once I get the 2nd Champion of the Parish in there.
I had gone double Pyromancer/double Delver for a while, but the deck only came together once for me. I''m kind of afraid to put it back together b/c of all the new Prowess guys I've added recently. I don't think the 2nd Delver will be back, but I do love Pyromancer and token producers so I'll likely find a slot for him.
@Onderzeebot, I really love Enchantress type decks (in EDH I run Karametra Enchantress), so I could definitely see myself doubling up on Eidolons in the near future as well. GB Constellation is one of my favorite Standard decks to come out in the last year, would love to see a similar effect work in my environment. Gonna look into more non-creature forms of ramp to include. I'm guessing that you've extended it through Abzan since you're building around wedges. What white enchantments are you running?
@Tyrole, I've had 4 at one point, but that seemed to be too much in a 360 shell. Since going to 3, it's been way more awesome. You pretty much only need two to really get it going. Three is usually overkill unless you have a super sick chain lined up. Seeing 1 every 120 cards seems about right to me.
Additionally, to deal with multiples of creatures getting out of hand, I've had good success with a singleton Sever the Bloodline. 4 mana is a fair amount to exile multiple creatures in one shot, comes through pretty much all the time and has Flashback which is super sweet. It's actually been fantastic in dealing with all the recursive shenanigans and cleaning up a mucked up board post Grave Titan.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
You are correct! I run 10 white enchantments.
Parallax Wave is edited to work like Banishing Light (i.e. no shenanigans with enchantment removal).
Sigil of the Empty Throne is edited to have constellation (i.e. it trigger when it or another enchantment enters the battlefield, rather then when casting another enchantment).
Modified Sigil of the Empty Throne is the real draw in white, and it can get out of hand pretty fast if you prioritized enchantments. I really like it