I think there was a serious one of those too but don't remember it's name.
[Design/Construction] Lets build the Scuttlemutt Cube!
- Thread starter Laz
- Start date
Laz
Developer
Yeah that's the one. Giant fan is hot garbage compared to it though :<
Also,
hits both "colour is important" and "tokens are dope".
Also,
hits both "colour is important" and "tokens are dope".
Chris Taylor
Contributor
The one fading card I'd consider worth it is tangle wire.
Also the advantage of power conduit is it doesn't cost a bajillion mana
Assuming you feed on the tears of your drafters, consider this addition: Magistrate's Scepter.
Also the advantage of power conduit is it doesn't cost a bajillion mana
Assuming you feed on the tears of your drafters, consider this addition: Magistrate's Scepter.
For those who prefer their Time Walks cost 15 mana, maybe you could just try this guy?
Laz
Developer
Proliferating Tangle Wire counters sounds insane enough to be fun. Does it function if it is re-templated to Vanishing though? If I am reading correctly, it just means that it dies immediately upon running out of counters as opposed to sticking around for an extra turn doing nothing.
Magistrate's Scepter... Anotak seems right. It seems either miserable or miserable.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well there's someone out there who enjoys magistrates scepter, even if none of us are that guy
He probably plays commander though, and says it's okay "because it's so janky!"
Tangle wire would function fine as you say, but I don't see it being worth it: Vanishing always has one more counter on it for balance (as we can see between calciderm and blastoderm) and letting tangle wire tap another thing seems edgey to me. I'm not sure there's a good solution, but perhaps your drafters are smart enough to understand this one small almost meaningless difference between the mechanics?
He probably plays commander though, and says it's okay "because it's so janky!"
Tangle wire would function fine as you say, but I don't see it being worth it: Vanishing always has one more counter on it for balance (as we can see between calciderm and blastoderm) and letting tangle wire tap another thing seems edgey to me. I'm not sure there's a good solution, but perhaps your drafters are smart enough to understand this one small almost meaningless difference between the mechanics?
Laz
Developer
I would like to think so, maybe I am falling into the 'Well... I am using custom cards anyway...' trap?
I am actually pretty sure that retemplating Fading to Vanishing actually changes nothing on Tangle Wire. Sure, with Blastoderm and Calciderm, the extra counter is important (since Blastoderm can still attack with 0 counters, and dies next upkeep), with Tangle Wire, it just hangs around for a full turn with 0 counters, and since the text references number of counters, it hanging around for that one turn versus being sacrificed in the upkeep seems like it would only matter in edge cases. In addition, Vanishing uses time counters, not fade counters, which is a non-negligible difference (ok, only non-negligible if I choose to go for any of the many cards which reference time counters), but is more consistent.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
It's certainly a trap worth considering
If we really had erratta here, I'd say anything that adds/removes time counters can add/remove ANY counters, just go giant fan on the whole project.
Tangle wire with vanishing does work well though, good thought
If we really had erratta here, I'd say anything that adds/removes time counters can add/remove ANY counters, just go giant fan on the whole project.
Tangle wire with vanishing does work well though, good thought
Laz
Developer
I am trying to template a Giant Fan/Power Conduit hybrid card, but the rules text is clumsy.
Variant 1: Attempting to use the Giant Fan wording. Has issues when a permanent references multiple types of counters, for instance Epochrasite. Also, how does this work with Suspend cards?
Everflowing Stone
Artifact
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Put a counter on target permanent. If that permanent's rules text refers to any type of counter, the counter becomes one of the referenced types. Otherwise, it becomes a +1/+1 counter.
Variant 2: Using more modern wording (See Vorel of the Hull Clade). This one is more restrictive in its use, and doesn't let you do cool things like take -1/-1 counters off of your permanents without any other countered targets.
Everflowing Stone
Artifact
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose a counter on target permanent with a counter on it. Put an additional counter of that type on that permanent.
Variant 3: Power Conduit wording... or, flexible, powerful and all around awesome. Also, the templating is really easy.
Everflowing Stone
Artifact
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose one -- Put a charge counter on target permanent. Put a time counter on target permanent with a time counter on it. Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature.
Thoughts/feelings?
Edit: Wow! Mana/tap symbols just work! Nice one Eric.
Variant 1: Attempting to use the Giant Fan wording. Has issues when a permanent references multiple types of counters, for instance Epochrasite. Also, how does this work with Suspend cards?
Everflowing Stone
Artifact
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Put a counter on target permanent. If that permanent's rules text refers to any type of counter, the counter becomes one of the referenced types. Otherwise, it becomes a +1/+1 counter.Variant 2: Using more modern wording (See Vorel of the Hull Clade). This one is more restrictive in its use, and doesn't let you do cool things like take -1/-1 counters off of your permanents without any other countered targets.
Everflowing Stone
Artifact
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose a counter on target permanent with a counter on it. Put an additional counter of that type on that permanent.Variant 3: Power Conduit wording... or, flexible, powerful and all around awesome. Also, the templating is really easy.
Everflowing Stone
Artifact
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose one -- Put a charge counter on target permanent. Put a time counter on target permanent with a time counter on it. Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature.Thoughts/feelings?
Edit: Wow! Mana/tap symbols just work! Nice one Eric.
How about:
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose one -- Put a charge counter on target permanent. Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. Put a counter on target permanent with a counter on it of a type of a counter on that permanent.
Bonus points for that last clause being both accurate and a horrible mess?
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose one -- Put a charge counter on target permanent. Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. Put a counter on target permanent with a counter on it of a type of a counter on that permanent.Bonus points for that last clause being both accurate and a horrible mess?
Laz
Developer
That is indeed how I felt when trying to template the card... Counters having to have types when created, specificity for cards with multiple types of counters. Gyah!
Maybe I can use Variant 3 and just have to be careful with types of counters. Gemstone Mine? Mining counters?! What are you?
Maybe a blend of Variant 2 and Variant 3 becomes more functional?
, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose one -- Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature; Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature; or choose a counter on target permanent with a counter on it, put an additional counter of that type on that permanent.At least Tangle Wire is easy to retemplate...
Yeah, that's what I was going for with bonus adding a charge counter to a depleted charge counter artifact.
you're probably fine
It's not really legal text, but I would probably just replace the last two with "proliferate target permanent". You don't need to have a special charge counter clause.
Laz
Developer
Removing the charge counter clause stops the card from being able to recharge depleted artifacts/lands etc, but I don't think that is a huge deal. I checked the templating on Proliferate, but I don't particularly like that text, '...then give each another counter of a kind already there'. I am not sold on 'give' as a rules term.
Removing the text and re-factoring a little makes the whole thing neater:
I just realised my attached images are pretty variable in size. Are there parameters for the image tag to change the display size? That way I could keep them at 100% for printing, yet not have them dominate the screen.
Removing the text and re-factoring a little makes the whole thing neater:
I just realised my attached images are pretty variable in size. Are there parameters for the image tag to change the display size? That way I could keep them at 100% for printing, yet not have them dominate the screen.
thanks ive just been dumping cards in spoiler tags mainly because of this
Laz
Developer
So... I went through Shadowmoor and Eventide again, picking out interesting colour/counter play cards. I am not sure on all of these, but 'ere we go! (Sorry for there being lots here, but I want to use this post for my reference later as well.)
Hatchling Cycle:
As 4 mana 6/6s go, these seem pretty bad. I can't really think of any sort of deck that wants a card like this, they are a bit too slow for aggressive decks, and I am sure midrange can do better. They do cross over well between multicolour matters and counters though, which is why I listed them.
Colour-matters Aggro cards:
With the push I am trying to give multi-colour aggro, these cards seem pretty decent. Mudbrawler Cohort is pretty dependent upon 1 drops, but stuffing Red full of 1CMC creatures is Cube 101 (not that we shouldn't question that, etc). Burning-Tree Emissary into Talara's Battalion seems pretty sweet, and I am sure with the density of hybrid 1 CMC cards, Talara's Battalion should be good. Are there any more of these? Ballynock Cohort at 3CMC seems eh...
Ramp:
These two cards are pretty different, and curiously ramp better with either counter manipulation or colours... Should I double up on both?
Generic -1/-1 cards:
This section is pretty big, and of some pretty variable quality. Quillspike seems like it could be awesome in a deck that is heavy on persist, and some of the other cards seem really good in decks with proliferate to help kill creatures. Other cards just have counters so that you have something to manipulate. I think the most interesting creature is probably Grief Tyrant. Removing counters from it makes it terrifying, adding counters transforms it into a kill spell, and as a bonus, it is a hybrid. That said, I think I would like to errata it to '...for each -1/-1 counter on Grief Tyrant, choose a creature and put a -1/-1 counter on it'. That way adding counters to it becomes an assemble your own Plague Wind.
I am not sure about Puncture Blast. It is a fine card, but I am still not sure about the strength of removal required for this cube. It may work out to being too weak, and that is ok, but I need to gauge the speed of the cube first.
I fear Necroskitter becoming the centre-piece of a very terrifying deck, Blowfly Infestation is similar. These two might be a little poison-principle, then again, I could simply think of them as good anchor cards.
Morselhoarder might cost too much. I am not sure how expensive ramp targets are going to be, but Morselhoarder into Regal Force seems pretty sweet.
Scarscale Ritual exists. I have seen worse draw twos...
Other cards are variable, Wickerbough Elder is almost certainly being included, where Rendclaw Trow only makes the list because it has two keywords which reference -1/-1 counters. Bloodied Ghost has the right hybrid mana symbols to match two sub-themes I am considering, and could be a 23rd card as a Wind Drake.
Persist:
I know there are a lot more cards than this with persist, but these seem the most interesting without being stupidly oppressive with heaps of ways to remove counters. Alright, that is a lie. Infinite Redcaps could get old fast. Safehold Elite seems like an easy to cast bear that turns on Shard-blades, while also being resilient and doing counter things. Yey! Cross pollination! Furystoke Giant seems like a very interesting card, but as to how good it is, I don't know. Restless Apparition seems pretty bad. I suspect it would be a more interesting card if instead of giving itself +3/+3, it put +1/+1 counters on itself... That is a bold bit of design that might be a little too courageous for Wizards though.
Sneaky Counter/Colour Stuff:
Come on guys, you knew Gilder Bairn was coming...
Leech bonder and Razorfin Abolisher work perfectly for how I envisage Blue. Manipulative, though as I am not sure either will be decent if spot removal is strong.
Swirling Spriggan. Redundancy! Yey!
Generic Hybrid stuffs:
Some of these are here so I don't forget they exist, others because I would like an opinion.
Crackleburr? - What does this do? Does it do anything?
Elvish Hexhunter? - I like my artifact/enchantment hate to have legs, and being a hybrid one drop is not the worst place to be in this cube.
Desecrator Hag? Seems expensive, but if I am planning to support Black devotion, does that change opinions?
Puresight Merrow? Genuine question-mark next to this one...
Tattermunge Witch? Seems a passable 2-drop that helps push damage later, not sure how gummy the ground will get yet though.
Valleymaker? Yeah... this is a card.
tl;dr; Shadowmoor block was pretty damn awesome.
Hatchling Cycle:
Colour-matters Aggro cards:
Ramp:
Generic -1/-1 cards:
I am not sure about Puncture Blast. It is a fine card, but I am still not sure about the strength of removal required for this cube. It may work out to being too weak, and that is ok, but I need to gauge the speed of the cube first.
I fear Necroskitter becoming the centre-piece of a very terrifying deck, Blowfly Infestation is similar. These two might be a little poison-principle, then again, I could simply think of them as good anchor cards.
Morselhoarder might cost too much. I am not sure how expensive ramp targets are going to be, but Morselhoarder into Regal Force seems pretty sweet.
Scarscale Ritual exists. I have seen worse draw twos...
Other cards are variable, Wickerbough Elder is almost certainly being included, where Rendclaw Trow only makes the list because it has two keywords which reference -1/-1 counters. Bloodied Ghost has the right hybrid mana symbols to match two sub-themes I am considering, and could be a 23rd card as a Wind Drake.
Persist:
Sneaky Counter/Colour Stuff:
Leech bonder and Razorfin Abolisher work perfectly for how I envisage Blue. Manipulative, though as I am not sure either will be decent if spot removal is strong.
Swirling Spriggan. Redundancy! Yey!
Generic Hybrid stuffs:
Crackleburr? - What does this do? Does it do anything?
Elvish Hexhunter? - I like my artifact/enchantment hate to have legs, and being a hybrid one drop is not the worst place to be in this cube.
Desecrator Hag? Seems expensive, but if I am planning to support Black devotion, does that change opinions?
Puresight Merrow? Genuine question-mark next to this one...
Tattermunge Witch? Seems a passable 2-drop that helps push damage later, not sure how gummy the ground will get yet though.
Valleymaker? Yeah... this is a card.
tl;dr; Shadowmoor block was pretty damn awesome.
Laz
Developer
I probably should have posted this last night, but sleep beckoned.
Black/White mini-themes.
I am thinking that White could have a 'It is good to be White' thing going on (Racist overtones aside), with cards that only benefit white creatures. For this, I am thinking of the following:
I am not sure how good Crovax is, but the intention of these cards is to provide an interesting incentive to play white hybrid cards. I don't think this section has to be very big, since it is not an archetype per-say, simply a minor factor in drafting (similar to looking for other Humans to help your Champion of the Parish)
In the opposite corner, Black devotion can be a thing, for a similar reason to the white mini-theme. I also like this as a little joke at the expense of the the generally bad Mono-black deck that seems to exist in power-maximisation cubes, where there is no competition for the BBB casting cost cards, here there might actually be competition for something like Ashenmoor Gouger.
Maybe this should be 2x Mogis Marauder instead of 2x Gary? Or maybe a Disciple of Phenax? I am not sure.
Black/White mini-themes.
I am thinking that White could have a 'It is good to be White' thing going on (Racist overtones aside), with cards that only benefit white creatures. For this, I am thinking of the following:
I am not sure how good Crovax is, but the intention of these cards is to provide an interesting incentive to play white hybrid cards. I don't think this section has to be very big, since it is not an archetype per-say, simply a minor factor in drafting (similar to looking for other Humans to help your Champion of the Parish)
In the opposite corner, Black devotion can be a thing, for a similar reason to the white mini-theme. I also like this as a little joke at the expense of the the generally bad Mono-black deck that seems to exist in power-maximisation cubes, where there is no competition for the BBB casting cost cards, here there might actually be competition for something like Ashenmoor Gouger.
Maybe this should be 2x Mogis Marauder instead of 2x Gary? Or maybe a Disciple of Phenax? I am not sure.
Laz
Developer
Removal thoughts:
White:
Seems a lot more interesting than Swords/Path/O. Ring...
Red:
Flame Slash is something of an afterthought here, but it seems like it is probably of the right power level. I am not sure if I am putting too much emphasis on counters here, but I suspect that Proliferate has more of a cube-wide-benefit, as opposed to propping up a specific 'counter-matters' deck.
Black:
Black removal is something I am unsure about. It seems that there is a gaping divide between 'effective, efficient, instant speed' and 'awkward, unplayable, garbage'. I am not sure that Drag Down and Grim Affliction are where I want to be, even if they do fit some of the themes.
I am sure there will be some awkward green and blue removal, but probably not enough to warrant much discussion.
White:
Seems a lot more interesting than Swords/Path/O. Ring...
Red:
Flame Slash is something of an afterthought here, but it seems like it is probably of the right power level. I am not sure if I am putting too much emphasis on counters here, but I suspect that Proliferate has more of a cube-wide-benefit, as opposed to propping up a specific 'counter-matters' deck.
Black:
Black removal is something I am unsure about. It seems that there is a gaping divide between 'effective, efficient, instant speed' and 'awkward, unplayable, garbage'. I am not sure that Drag Down and Grim Affliction are where I want to be, even if they do fit some of the themes.
I am sure there will be some awkward green and blue removal, but probably not enough to warrant much discussion.
Given at least a minor focus on changing colour, I'd drop murder for another colour restricted kill spell.