[Design/Construction] Rebuilding my 360...

Laz

Developer
So, I went and did the actual update. That post was not reflective of the changes. I had too many Green cards?! How did that happen? Didn't add Ghoultree, Tooth and Nail, Wood Elves (God it was easy to cut those huge CMC spells!) after all. Even had to cut Slaughterhorn, poor guy...

I could probably do something dodgy like classify Noxious Revival as colourless, and sneak Ghoultree back in, but that can wait until I finish off Black and Blue, and look at slot availability.
 

Laz

Developer
Given the density of equipment, Tinker in Blue and graveyard themes I am going to start working out what Blue looks like (from a creature perspective, but shaped by the spells) with a simple addition.

Unblockable guys, that carry equipment well, stock the yard, and provide card filtering? Seems solid.I also want to see the Stoneforge Mystic -> Elbrus + Looter il-Kor combo come together at least once. Giving Blue an early attacking bent is a possibility, and something like three or four Brainstorms allows for Delver to potentially be good. I am a little wary of putting too many cheap creatures into Blue though, as I have already added Opposition, and I am aware of just how terrifying that card could become. That said, I can always take it out if it proves oppressive too commonly.
While discussing one-drops, I do want to try out Dakra Mystic. Card seems very decision dense, especially with the reasonably strong graveyard emphasis of this cube.

Control decks will still need their early blockers, so Augur of Bolas and Ludevic's Test Subject round out the two-drops. Augur is actually incredibly strong here, as there is a very high density of x/1-creatures across the aggro colours, and a shortage of 3-damage removal... Whoops... Might need to scale up my aggro-friendly removal (Path to Exile and Ultimate Price will probably be the go-to cards here if that is the case).

Seven two-drops (including the Phantasmal Image mentioned below) seems like a lot for Blue, but the reality is that Snapcaster is almost never going to be cast for two-mana, and Phantasmal Image scales into the late game very well. This density gives control decks more play in the early game and supports the 'feels like Legacy'-mantra, though considering that this is seven without counting Riftwing Cloudskate, perhaps I should scale back slightly.

I want a couple of clones for Birthing Pod, and for doing typical Blue stuff, so Phantasmal Image comes in. With Phyrexian Metamorph and Duplicant already in the mix, this is probably enough. It makes me sad to see 'It's a NINJAAAA!' aka Sakashima's Student out, but sometimes you have to kill some sacred cows (I should be careful with what I say, Ludevic's Test Subject is something of a sacred cow for me, but will likely have to be the first to go if I start hacking into Blue creature numbers).

A weakness of my current cube is a lack of three-drops, not just in Blue, but across all of the colours. This always becomes apparent when I try to draft Pod, and I have done my best to bolster the 3-drop section of each of my other colours (Black, Green and Red have 5 each, while White has 7!). At the moment I am contemplating the following:

I am hoping for the other colours to carry the numbers for the Pod deck's three-drops, although there are plenty of other cards I could add (Serendib Efreet, for instance). Aether Adept gets the nod over the normally easier to cast Man-o'-War simply because creature types matter, and I am not supporting Jellyfish tribal (things to do in other cubes I guess?). Stitched Drake is likewise chosen for tribal synergies, but also requires some of the graveyard support that has been trickling in. Deceiver Exarch is almost exclusively a Pod target, to jump from 2-4, but has done work previously in control decks, flashing in and eating guys, tapping down attackers, allowing the representation of counter-spells, etc. It is an interesting card, and doesn't require the presence of Splinter Twin to be good. Vendilion Clique is of course awesome, but I am going to go without as I want the other {1}{U}{U} cards more.

I am going to run Sower of Temptation and Dungeon Geists at four in this cube, though this might be going too tempo heavy. Venser is a card I want to dabble with over one of these two guys for the more controlly deck, but I want to see how well this version of Blue tempo plays first.

Fives are pretty standard. Mulldrifter and Riftwing Cloudskate pair up with non-standard, but super sweet Body Double.

Finishers?

Something I have found interesting about this rebuild is just how pointless it is to bicker over the finer details of powerful cards. These guys could be basically anything. Big flying Sphinxes, Legendary Dragons, whatever. For instance, at the moment I need one more big Black finisher that can also be reanimated. There are something like 20 different six or seven drops that would kill the opponent in ever so slightly different ways. I simply chose Aetherling and Ol'Frosty here because I like them. The former totally changes the pace of the game, and I have a soft spot for the latter.



EDIT: Ah! All of those Brainstorms and I forgot to add Conundrum Sphinx! How could I be so careless?!
 
Are you using shadow here as can't block/be blocked, or are you going to seed some shadow elsewhere, as I think that's actually an interesting distinction to think about.
 

Laz

Developer
Sorry Bob, these guys are basically looting Tormented Souls.

If I need some evasive 2-drops in White, some of the Soltari creatures could get the call up over something like Stormfront Pegasus, but I don't think that is too likely. Something interesting could be Temporal Isolation over a Pacifism effect, but I don't think it really adds enough. There is never going to be the density of Shadow I need to make it feel appropriate.
 

Laz

Developer
Black is in a position where it is reasonably easy to finish off. I have 6-8 slots, and need the following:
- 1x Reanimatable Fatty
- Planeswalkers
- Card Draw
- Targeted discard

The Fatty is pretty simple. After looking at all of the random 6+ CMC black creatures, Sheoldred has the most interesting text which doesn't involve you taking 7+ damage during your upkeep. Pacts with demons seem pretty ordinary really. Bloodgift and Rune-Scarred seemed to be the only demons that really give back. Rune-scarred is an option, but Sheoldred just feels that bit more impactful, and can reward a more dedicated graveyard-based game.

Planeswalker? In black? I know someone...

Liliana has all the rich decision density I want from walkers. A challenging symmetrical +1 that rewards graveyard synergies and a -2 which is on the expected power curve.

Card draw in black doesn't give us a lot of choices, but Night's Whisper and Read the Bones are very serviceable when you are not in Blue. I really should have paid more attention to the 'draw a card' thread, as cards replacing themselves is pretty awesome...

Targeted discard can take up a bunch of the remaining slots. At this stage I am thinking:

There maybe should be a Thoughtseize here, but I don't own one, so I am happy to run with these guys for now. I rarely see Despise, and I have no idea why that is...

That is 7 slots, which rounds out Black perfectly. If I find I have a spare one, I will probably add Ultimate Price, simply because I suspect that I might need an extra piece of point removal.
 

Laz

Developer
We are in the home straight now! Pretty much just have Blue non-creatures to finish up before rounding it all out with some gold cards.

Blue broadly does 3 things with their non-creatures. Draw cards, Counter spells and performs generic trickery.

I have made it clear from earlier posts where we are starting:

Possibly there should be 4 of these, but it is hard to tell. Card is sweet! Hugely decision dense cantrip that has synergies with a whole range of other cards, from Fetchlands to Sarkhan the Mad.
While we are on the card-draw topic, I think it is remiss that I haven't already added Thirst for Knowledge. Discard, artifact synergies, instant speed draw? How did this make it past the first graveyard and artifact updates? Deep Analysis, Fact or Fiction, Forbidden Alchemy and Frantic Search were all added back then, so perhaps I assumed I had enough. We might as well have all of our card draw spells from being synergistic, no room for Divinations, make way for Thirst!

Moving on to Counterspells. I have previously said I don't like counterspells too much, but I have moved past that opinion, and as is probably evident from much of the rest of this rebuild, I want this type of early interaction to be possible.

Izzet Charm is already in, bringing the density of counters up pretty high. I will see how I feel about this dynamic after a couple of drafts, but I am excited about it for now.

My final category of Blue spells is trickery. Unfortunately I don't think I can be super tricky with my last few Blue spots, as I don't have that many. Cyclonic Rift definitely earns a spot and Rapid Hybridization beats out Pongify because Frog Lizard > Ape.
Finally, Blue gets face, in Jace, Architect of Thought.

Jace, AOT is about the perfect power level for planeswalkers here. I like that there is the tension between defensive and aggressive play with him, as you have to let your shields down in order to draw cards, and the card draw provides interesting decisions to both players.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Sounds good on blue to me!

Questions:
-Is control magic the kind of thing we're trying to avoid here?
-Compulsive Research is also sweet, but if artifacts are a thing then maybe this isn't the spot for it\
-I like dissolve, but my personal favorite 3cc counters are forbid and hinder. Forbid is way safer than it looks, and hinder is both sweet graveyard hate and a flex memory lapse. Lovely card. Maybe complicate can leave? I dunno, I haven't played with complicate since actual onslaught drafts
 

Laz

Developer
Questions:
-Is control magic the kind of thing we're trying to avoid here?
-Compulsive Research is also sweet, but if artifacts are a thing then maybe this isn't the spot for it\
-I like dissolve, but my personal favorite 3cc counters are forbid and hinder. Forbid is way safer than it looks, and hinder is both sweet graveyard hate and a flex memory lapse. Lovely card. Maybe complicate can leave? I dunno, I haven't played with complicate since actual onslaught drafts

Control Magic was definitely one of the effects I was wanting in Blue, and one of the first cards I added to my shortlist. What I really wanted was an Instant/Sorcery version, because that plays far nicer with all of the other effects (Snapcaster, Delver, Pyromancer, focus on artifacts as opposed to enchantments) Unfortunately Dominate and Govern the Guildless are a little too inefficient.

Compulsive Research is also sweet, I agree. I feel there I already have enough card draw of this type (where this type means 'graveyard stocking'), though Compulsive is a possibility over say, Frantic Search. Thirst is an instant, which really pushes up its stock, probably to really-powerful levels...

I understand what you are saying about graveyard hating counterspells. The swaps are pretty straight forward if I feel the need for them. Dissolve -> Dissipate/Hinder and Condescend -> Syncopate. The issue is that I think I prefer the average case of these cards more than them occasional preventing Lingering Souls flashback. This might change when I get annoyed by being unable to effectively counter a Gravecrawler. Chandra's Phoenix is probably the card you want to exile with a counterspell (because Haste...), but the density of burn isn't so high that I expect Phoenix to be a huge nuisance.

I haven't played Complicate either, but I have heard naught but good things about it, and I can understand why. Sure, it isn't quite a hard counter, but it is for most stages of the game. Plus, it cycles, which is awesome.

I also really like venser, though that slot has a lot of great choices. Somnophore is another good one.

Ok... That card is really cool. I hadn't ever seen it before. I might give it a run over Dungeon Geists at some point if I feel the 3 toughness is too difficult for some decks to overcome with all of my 2-point burn (I keep telling myself that that kicking Burst Lightning is an acceptable solution, but I know it really isn't).

Coming out of this feedback, I think I want to try to find room for a couple more non-card draw, non-counterspell Blue cards, probably by cutting a creature or two.
Control Magic
Repeal (or Into the Roil, Repulse?)

Potential cuts:
Ludevic's Test Subject
A counterspell?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Control Magic was definitely one of the effects I was wanting in Blue, and one of the first cards I added to my shortlist. What I really wanted was an Instant/Sorcery version, because that plays far nicer with all of the other effects (Snapcaster, Delver, Pyromancer, focus on artifacts as opposed to enchantments) Unfortunately Dominate and Govern the Guildless are a little too inefficient.

The only card I could think of that would somewhat meet these requirements would be ray of command. It fills a somewhat different role than a true instant speed control magic would, but it still feels like a powerful effect without being broken, and synergizes well with sacrifice pieces.

My vote is always for repeal: I just really like that card.
 

Laz

Developer
Some delays came up (shipping ones specifically), and so I have fallen into the trap that likely befalls every member of this forum; I have far more time for designing than I do for testing designs. This means I have an increasing number of cards on my desk that need to find a place in the, as yet untested rebuild of this cube.

Cards currently under consideration:


There are also Bind and Squelch, but those ones aren't on my desk. Bind is in a cupboard next to me, and I am yet to find a copy of Squelch...
 

Laz

Developer
Deconstruction of my pre-rebuild cube was heartening. As I went through each of the colours and removed the cards which didn't make the new list, it was great to see that a lot of the cards that I was removing were often cards which were often out and out oppressive (Vedelkan Shackles, Sundering Titan) and cards about which I continually asked myself 'How did this ever make this list?' (Cream of the Crop, Mutilate).

The total number of cards being cut is pretty insane...
cube_cuts.jpg

That is a little less than half the cube! The vast majority of cuts are from the multi-colour sections, as I went from having a quota for each guild to just including strong incentive/archetype supporting cards as I saw fit. This has ended up with a pretty serious guild imbalance, but I have no issue with that, excellent fixing covers all manner of minor issues like this, so it is not like Rakdos player is going to have free wheel of cards like Dreadbore. The actual Gold section are now pretty small, at least by my method of classification (as the sections contain a lot of very cast-able hybrids). The love for gold cards that was re-kindled by RTR seems to have smouldered and gone out, as I had no issue going from a 50 card gold section (4-5 per guild) down to a 'true'* gold section of 26 (2-3 per guild, 1 in the case of Orzhov).

Now, all ready for the first draft next Tuesday! (Sorry Grillo, you might have to wait a week on the Scuttle-cube decks.)

*Note: My classification of 'true' multicoloured is a card that requires 2 or more colours of mana to be cast, or contains 3 or more of the same hybrid mana symbols. i.e Izzet Charm and Boros Reckoner are counted as multicoloured, Murderous Redcap is not.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
It's interesting: people always ask me if I doubled up on multicolor cards (Like actual multicolor cards, as you specify)

I really find the place for multicolor cards is for things that the monocolor sections couldn't do on their own. Terminate and Dreadbore don't really excite me, vindicate barely does, but something unique like Drogskul Reaver or Glare of Subdual is more what I think the multicolor cards should be.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, this is where the recent Wizards philosophy of "limited gold cards should be build-arounds that pull you into those colours, rather than just efficient value cards" has gotten ahold of me. Hero's Downfall does a fine stand-in for Dreadbore, but it's harder to find a Grenzo in mono-red or mono-black. Also, gold planeswalkers!
 

Laz

Developer
Grillo re: Tezzeret/Fair Tinker decks.

Do you think people are just drafting the deck poorly right now?

It looks like there is a more aggro-controllish U/W version, based around stoneforge, and a more controllish tinker version of the deck. Have you seen any U/R varients running trash for treasure yet? It looks like it could be part of an aggro-control deck, control deck, and artifact reanimator/control deck.

Interesting stuff.

I think there are a number of directions it could go, and people haven't really figured out where to take it yet. On cubetutor I have drafted a number of variations, from pure control decks which basically Tinker for Staff of Nin or Nevinyrral's Disk.

I seeded a more aggressive version with the multiple Looter il'Kors. They were a cross archetype support card, but the Elbrus synergy is the one I hold the most affection for. I suppose Stoneforging Grafted Wargear or Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang onto an unblockable creature would be pretty strong too, but doesn't quite appeal to the same aspect of my character as Withengar Unbound does.

One interesting version I drafted on cubetutor looked like this:
This deck is a bit more aggressive, although the Delver flips are a little optimistic. It also looks a little reliant on Tezzeret. Tinker gets answers in Duplicant and Nevinyrral's Disk or Tatsumasa as a threat, or Trading Post in longer games. Sideboard of this deck included Colossus of Akros which seems pretty strong against anything attacking on the ground (though it did get Tinkered for in a game last week, before, tragically, slipping off of its pedestal).

I also drafted a couple of reanimator shells, but I think I built the decks a little suboptimally...

All in all, I like what the cards add. There is a lot of play to them, but what tweaks need to happen, I am not sure. Also, all of these interactions are not obvious to my drafters yet. They need to get a better understanding of the card pool in order to really start to leverage all of the artifact-based tools available.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think you're probably right about that, the deck you posted looked a bit like a hybrid of two strategies. If you wanted to tweek it, I think maybe adding a second stoneforge would help make it easier to draft.

Anyways, I wanted to try to force the archetype, and this is what I got.

U/W Aggro Control from CubeTutor.com











It actually came together pretty easily after I refreshed cube tutor enough to get a p1 p1 stoneforge. The notable cards I have in the sideboard are delver x2, runechanter's pike, tatsumasa, angel of serenty, and elbrus. I settled around a strategy of using stoneforge basically as a tutor and tempo play, to quickly get equipment out that than beats in the air, backed up by a bunch of disruptive threats that can take advantage of the light reanimation elements. I think it turned out pretty well.

I could have taken the deck, or the draft in slightly different directions. I had no where near a high enough sorcery/instant count to run delver/runechanter's pike. Cutting angel was a hard choice, but I figured I had enough value from the reanimation already, and there was no reason to go with a more powerful but inconsistant reanimation plan. Cutting elberus and tetsumasa were also hard choices, but I was worried I would just end up pitching them to the looters, and without trash for treasure I would have no way to get them back. Maybe thats more of a U/W/r deck? Or a pure tinker deck.

Anyways, it looks like a very fun family of decks, and the tempo version at least looks like a blast to play. Not sure about the control versions, maybe they need a little bit more of a pay off? Not sure exactly what you could run though.
 

Laz

Developer
That deck looks pretty awesome! I would definitely have played the Elbrus (although that is probably dependant upon having at least one Tinker) because you know... stories.

I know what you are saying about the control versions, I guess we will see. I will post back here with more interesting things if they occur. I know I promised you decks from the Scuttle-cube, but people are enjoying this Cube at the moment.
 

Laz

Developer
Ok! While I have been randomly tweaking and touching up this cube over the last year, I think it is time for another rebuild, since now my brain is ticking over from Magic Origins. Red has embraced tokens! And they are tokens that support the artifact theme! I mean I could probably pull cards here and put cards there, but I like to have a big bang approach every now and again, just to shake out cards that somehow survived all of the changes.

So, things that are currently working well:
Humans
A 'human-centered' deck doesn't come together every draft, but lots of the components work well on their own, with Mayor of Avabruck being the only semi-weak link. Xathrid Necromancer normally does good work, and Champion is a solid 1-drop that admittedly does get relegated to the sideboard on occasion. However, when the deck does come together, these, combined with Bloodsoaked Champion, have been truly terrifying, and kind of makes me want to run less effects which 'destroy' and more effects which 'exile' or 'put on the bottom of their owner's library'.
Graveyard themes
This is very broad, and overall the theme adds a lot of lines of play, which is a net win for the environment. However sub-themes within this have had mixed success. Generally the graveyard adds value and options to a bunch of decks, which was kind of the point. Reanimation is less of a combo deck, and is mostly supporting mid-range value decks, to get more use out of their ETB effects. Recent threads have caused me to question what I want midrange decks to be doing, and how they interact with my aggressive decks, so this probably deserves a second look.
In my 'draw-a-card' cube, graveyard decks tend to be tool-boxy, with cards like Tortured Existence and even Pit Keeper leveraging stocked graveyards to get the right creatures at the right time. I had a game the other night where I used Bone Shredder three times, letting it die to Echo each time to use one of my re-buy effects for value, until I eventually got something big to actually close out the game with. That cube is all about durdly value engines, which virtually every deck has access to (I saw an Esper Heroic Aggro deck start a Spirit Cairn, Undead Gladiator loop!), but some of that feel might be nice to recapture here. Then again, that just sounds like 'supporting mid-range value decks', and Birthing Pod fills that role pretty well.
Spell Density
CMCs are low, and spells are flowing fine. I love how action packed the early turns of games are, and how Flashback spells often pull double duty in spell-based decks and in control decks. On that note, I am loving Prowess, and would like to make it a bigger feature, probably by pushing a UWR Tempo archetype (or, pushing it more).
Sacrifice Theme
A fan favourite. Maybe need to be more of these effects that benefit from multiple tokens. For instance, Jinxed Idol is great and all, but only really needs 1 goblin to get going, and only Goblin Bombardment and Greater Gargadon really benefit from having many bodies to throw away (Oh, also Blood Artist, that card is insane). Overall though, this provides a great engine, but I am going to note here, mostly for my own reference, that I want to run Humble Defector. It might be worth noting that this theme is strongly RB, and probably could afford to bleed more into other colours. MM15 implemented a GB sacrifice theme, so that might be worth a look.

Things that are 'fine':
Artifacts
Fair Tinker was always going to be interesting, and overall I think it is going ok, but not amazing. I think I can afford to slowly ramp up the power of Tinker targets until it breaks, which is something I haven't been testing that much, as I have been tending to play the 'draw-a-card' cube a lot more recently (at $129 according to Cube-Tutor, I have no issue drafting it with random people at the LGS). I am hoping I can add some more support with the artifact theme that Red has jumped more heavily into since this project started (er... restarted).
Go-Wide Red
This theme has also been fine, but not amazing. It feels like there is a lack of Falter effects, so possibly these cards benefits from the tempo cards mentioned above. That said, this theme plays really well with the sacrifice effects, but might need a boost on the beatdown front.

Things that are pretty bad:
Actually not much. While there are cards here and there that haven't proved the most adequate, most of the themes and build around work well. Maybe some of the cards in the 'top of deck' matter theme are a bit low reward, the theme isn't really build-around so much as 'Oh! I could do this... then that happens!', which is a pretty great experience for people drafting and playing the cube, so the problems can likely be solved by tweaking the cards. I am sure when I dissect further I will find things that I don't like as much and I would rather add something else in its place, but at present, I only really have problems with cards, not ideas.
Some recent discussions about mid-range beef and giving aggro options as games go longer, as well as some things I have learned from the draw-a-card cube will be front of mind as I go through this process, and hopefully we end up with a slightly more refined iteration this go-around...
 

Laz

Developer
Ok, lets make aggro decks more interesting!

There has been a lot of discussion in the last month or so about making aggressive decks face up to mid-range decks more effectively, usually through the concept of perceived pressure, rather than the standard 2/1's for 1, then close the game out with some sort of reach, normally burn. Don't get me wrong, I love burn as a finisher. Tribal Flames is pretty much my favourite card in Scuttle-cube, but I want to experiment a bit with more disruptive aggressive decks.

Firstly, it is perhaps of use to discuss the aggressive themes I would like to see. Recent printings have made pushed these ideas to the forefront:
- Supplement the existing go-wide aggro strategy centred in Red.
- Spell-based aggro has become far easier to support with Prowess becoming evergreen.
- Equipment is in an interesting place, and probably deserves some thinking about.
- Everyone's favourite recursive black aggro.
- I am sure there are some interesting things that can be done with the Dash mechanic.

Go wide, at present is pretty reliant upon Mogg War Marshal, but I think it is time it got cut. It is a fine card, and plays well enough with cards like Alesha and sacrifice effects. Go-wide could move a little further up the curve, and some of the Thopter producing cards help to support it, and provide evasive tokens, which handles my biggest issue with the theme at the moment, in that the tokens are too easily stonewalled. Goblin Rabblemaster and Young Pyromancer probably provide enough on-ground go-wide, and play nicely with the same types of cards that the War Marshal does. In addition they tie more neatly into a prowess-oriented aggressive deck, in the case of the Pyromancer, and a tempo, make-blocking tricky deck in the case of Rabblemaster, which epitomises the disruptive aggro notion I want to emphasise. I have a feeling that I probably going to have to throw out my existing <3 CMC red-section and rebuild from scratch in order to get the aggro play that I am looking for, since at present I have too much invested in all of the interactions in there.
Notes on individual cards here: Consul's Lieutenant is a newly printed card I want to try out, despite the CC, and Outpost Siege is far more flexible than Hissing Iguanar while still providing much of the threat the 3/1 did.

Spell-based aggro has been bolstered by the printing of more and more Prowess creatures. Supporting this is easy, but will require me to look closely at the cheap spells that I am running. I think it might be time for Delver to shine, and I probably need to examine my density of cheap instants, as well as deck-manipulation spells.

Equipment is indeed in an interesting place. It interacts well with early evasive threats, plays really well with First/Double strike, and serves to make all of the otherwise pretty mediocre black recursive threats into far more terrifying beasts. There is already plenty of competing demand, but there is an opportunity to do some more interesting things here.

I like Dash. I have been beaten to death while holding Wraths in my hand a couple of times now, and I still like it. It provides a lot of play in its natural state, but I want to seed some interesting interactions. There is always the possibility of growing Champion of the Parish with dashed humans, and Outpost Siege does trigger off of 'leaving the battlefield'. Maybe seed a few 'whenever a creature enters the battlefield' cards, to play nicely with Dash, as well as with the go-wide approach above (Are you thinking what I am thinking? Are you thinking of Blasting Station?)

Awkwardly, Green doesn't really get a piece of the aggro pie. If I toned things down a little, it might be able to play with a +1/+1 counter theme, but that theme takes up so much space, and requires support across every colour, and so I don't really want to explore it here.

I suppose now I have to stop theory crafting and make some changes...
 
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