[Design/Construction] Rebuilding my 360...

Laz

Developer
Still in theory craft mode, but I am assuming I can seed enough spell-oriented cards to create a gradient of decks, from all-in UR decks, to decks which just run Seeker of the Way and occasionally get some value from casting O. Ring or Lingering Souls.

The Lucre-cube (aka. Draw-a-card cube) has shown me that blue-based aggressive decks can be terrifying, and a lot of the potency comes from the fact that the opponent has no idea what is going to happen in the upcoming combat phase. That deck runs a lot of can-tripping cards, for instance, doubling up on Leap, so creatures can suddenly become large and difficult to block as cards cantrip into one another. A large volume of instant speed protection adds a lot of inter-play to tackling threats, though the fact that virtually all decent removal costs 3 mana might have something to do with that dynamic. There are a lot of very strong tempo elements at play there. It is this experience that I am drawing on when I try to create that experience in this environment. I feel I can raise the power-level a fair way without compromising the experience.

There is certainly a scale of how spell-dependant cards are, from Delver of Secrets to Abbot of Keral Keep, though the fact of the matter is that none of these are wildly unplayable in an average 8-10 spell deck. They just scale really well with more spells being cast, which is a pretty natural thing for aggressive decks to do. I feel it is more important to focus upon adding appropriate spells to the environment. Emerge Unscathed and Feeling of Dread seem like powerful tools for a tempo-oriented deck, but have also been selected because of the multiple casting triggers. Likewise Firebolt and Staggershock. There is also the possibility of some interesting disruptive aggro deck which uses the 1 CMC black discard spells to do fun things. On that note, Raven's Crime only takes a single slot, and I have had my hand ripped apart enough by that card to recognize its power. Previously it was only really for grind-y GB decks, but it might be nice to give it some utility.
Aside: I just realised that Molten Vortex is basically a 2-damage Flame Jab... It is however, probably too dangerous to just Sharpie a 2 onto Flame Jab, mostly because you could Dredge it with Life from the Loam.

Ultimately, I feel that a lot of the Prowess and 'when you cast' cards are about generating value from what you wanted to do anyway. In this regard, the cards are a key component in out-tempoing your opponent. If you gain a little bit of extra value from every spell, you are in a good place. That said, lots of these cards force interesting sequencing decisions, and so add a little more complexity to the interactions. I premised this cube with 'I want a cube with Legacy-style decision trees, where games are won by inches' and so I see this as a good path towards that goal.
 

Laz

Developer
Ok, lets try to create a concrete implementation, though I am confident that I can't simply put a block of cards into a post and say 'That! There! That is spell-based aggro!', rather this will have to seep through the cube. I very much doubt that I can maintain consistency of this theme through the cube, unless I keep things very linear, as this is but one of many moving parts. Birthing Pod, for example is an archetype completely at odds with this one, as it relies on the 'creatures-as-spells' mantra, where I definitely want Reclamation Sage over say Naturalize.

I suspect that most of the Prowess cards don't need a lot of support, as Blue and Red are naturally fairly spell heavy, and White has solid token-making spells, which tangentially support the theme. The Prowess cards that I have my eye on are as follows, and some of these may warrant doubling up on (Likely Seeker, maybe Swiftspear):

Elusive Spellfist is also a possibility. Soulblade Djinn and Strongarm Monk are super sweet, but I have a hunch that they are about {1} too expensive. 4 CMC is probably a sweet spot for a curve-topper for this sort of deck. Monastery Mentor is a possibility, but I will want to proxy him for a while first, the effect might be a little much, and he is pretty pricey at the moment.


Pyromancer is still a sweet card, and I think it kind of makes sense to think of him like the Prowess cards, as he doesn't feel like he needs a lot of support. I mean, if he is a 2/1 for {1}{R} who brings along a 1/1, he is a fine card, and his best case is so far above that. The big difference to the Prowess cards is that Pyromancer doesn't really impact spell sequencing. Sure, sometimes you will play some instants in response to removal to get some 1/1s instead of waiting, but that is not nearly as big a deal as the Prowess cards, who really want you to be playing spells on your own turn, before attacking. I am not sure at this stage what that means for spell selection, but it something to consider when evaluating sorcery versus instant speed effects. Couple that with the fact that that Prowess effectively makes every instant a combat trick and I am not sure where we are left. I have a hunch that I am perhaps overthinking it.

There is one spells-matter card that requires a bit more support.

Delver wants to be set up. Delver wants cards that let you manipulate the top of your deck. Brainstorm is still awesome, but Scry also seems great here. In this regard, I am planning to go up to 2 Magma Jet. If the last year of standard has taught us anything, it is that Scry is great. I just wish it was attached to more random cards that are not complete rubbish.
One of the impacts of pushing spells which support this spells-matter theme is that 3 has become a critical toughness. A pair of Magma Jets, Staggershock and Firebolt is a lot of cheap burn that only deals 2. Especially if I supplement it with Pillar of Flame to help combat the recursive black aggro threats. This is certainly something to bear in mind when I am looking at 3-toughness creatures in future.

The other spells that support this probably don't need to be anything too special. Keep the curve low, prioritise Flashback and Rebound spells (though I am unsure about Distortion Strike alongside Staggershock and Emerge Unscathed. Survival Cache is also an interesting card...). I also need to consider how tempo oriented decks come together.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I love prowess so much man :D

Here's my experience with the deck so far:
  • Seeker is great, and he's decent in other decks but not so good you need to first pick him like finks. I run 2 and a custom version @450, so 2 is probably fine?
  • Young Pyromancer is similarly great, though he puts more demands on your deckbuilding. A lot of random removal spells and so forth happen to be enchantments (Pacifism, ORing, Journey to nowhere, let alone random stuff like seal of fire) so keep him in mind when you decide which of those to include (There's instant sorcery versions for some, and I love me some Valorous Stance anyways, but the wording downgrade on Council's Judgement is real bad). He's totally fine in a random list, so keep that in mind. I just don't like it when my drafters are disappointed to open removal :p
  • Abbot of Keral Keep is basically perfect, and works wonderfully in any deck. I would not be disappointed if I ran 14 copies of that card, so include as many as you want.
  • Shu Yun is a weird one, kind of plays like Geist of St Traft if he was fair. He's mana intensive and fragile, but the payoff is huge. (Hell he hits harder than geist if he's on).
  • Monastery Mentor is a sweet one, though he really gets out of hand quickly. I've had a few games where it combines with Unearth to make me try really hard not to die, but I think that's a good thing. I like the card, though running more than one might be overkill, since sometimes he does nothing.
  • All the 1 power prowess guys I've had bigger problems with (Swiftspear, Jeskai Elder, Jeskai Sage, Elusive Spellfist, etc). As we've seen, basically anything with 1 power just doesn't affect the board, so these creatures essentially need prowess to be on before they count as creatures. Swiftspear is probably unnecessary anyways, since I've found a prowess deck is perfectly happy with savannah lions or what have you, where the reverse is not true.
  • Soulblade Djinn and Strongarm Monk are overkill, as you state. this deck doesn't often have a huge amount of threats in play (Unless young pyromancer is shitting all over your opponent, in which case congrats on your match win). The curve topper I actually do like is Ojutai Exemplars, which plays well nicely in pure control decks as well.
  • Runechanter's Pike is also sweet, and can occasionally find its way into other decks (Mostly big piles of burn, but not always). I've got 2, I'm not sure I need the second one?
  • Rebound is super great for this deck, and basically every cheap rebound card from Rise is worth cubing (I dunno, I haven't tried Surreal Memoir myself, though consuming vapors is still great) and all the cards from DTK are too expensive (Artful Maneuver/Ojutai's Breath could be decent). Distortion Strike is a good card, trust me.

Lastly, a Rant:
Please don't run delver of secrets. Assuming a deck of 16 lands, 4 delvers and 20 (!!!) spells, that's a coinflip, and that deck would be horrible! Even if you can push that percentage up with scrys and brainstorms, what's the endgame? Is a delver that flips 70% of the time good? Because A) I'm not sure you can push it that high without some drastic errata, and B) each game where it flips turn 1 is still miserable.
Assuming customs are out of the question, run Phantasmal Bear in delver's place, it's the least shit of the horrible trifecta (Delver/Bear/cloudfin raptor). If you're amenable though, just make something that wizards would never make (Here's mine), since I've found that if you try and make an aggressive 1 drop that "feels blue" it ends up having these huge variances or is way too dependent on the number of spells cast, or other problems that would have us turning back to savannah lions in other colors.
DEWMxdn.png
 
  • All the 1 power prowess guys I've had bigger problems with (Swiftspear, Jeskai Elder, Jeskai Sage, Elusive Spellfist, etc). As we've seen, basically anything with 1 power just doesn't affect the board, so these creatures essentially need prowess to be on before they count as creatures. Swiftspear is probably unnecessary anyways, since I've found a prowess deck is perfectly happy with savannah lions or what have you, where the reverse is not true.

I'm convinced. I'm cutting all my one power prowess guys without looking back.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Chris and I have had this discussion before, and are clearly in disagreement, but I just want to say that I love delver of secrets and think its amazing. Its a suspend 3/2 flyer for {U}, but if you require that it be an actual 3/2 flyer for {U} you will be disappointed. Every deck should be able to deal with a two toughness one drop.

Of course I also have delver as my avatar, so I might be on a certain human wizard's payroll.

I do agree that cloudfin and bear are terrible, however onderzeeboot thinks cloudfin is great, so yeah.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Chris and I have had this discussion before, and are clearly in disagreement, but I just want to say that I love delver of secrets and think its amazing. Its a suspend 3/2 flyer for {U}, but if you require that it be an actual 3/2 flyer for {U} you will be disappointed. Every deck should be able to deal with a two toughness one drop.

Of course I also have delver as my avatar, so I might be on a certain human wizard's payroll.

I do agree that cloudfin and bear are terrible, however onderzeeboot thinks cloudfin is great, so yeah.

Two problems there: Delver can't be hardcast, and the suspend length is random. I wouldn't like Ancestral Vision if it had suspend D6: {U} either.
 
Re: prowess guys, I have to say I liked Jeskai granny while she was in my Cube. Not having evasion hurts somewhat, but attacking with mana open usually made the block decision difficult for the opponent. I was generally satisfied with 1-2 loots from her.
 

Laz

Developer
Cheers guys, I appreciate the discussion.

I am in the pro-Delver camp, but I do see how his inconsistency could be a turn off. I don't think that relying upon attacking for 3 on turn 2 is what you are expecting from your Delver, but it is nice when it happens. Delver offers a lot over other 1-drops in that he tends not to be stone-walled nearly as easily because of his evasion. Against many decks, they simply can't afford to ignore your Delver indefinitely, where they could with a small/midsized ground-pounder since at some point he is going to start flying. The best the ground-pounder can hope for is being involved in a go-wide Alpha Strike.
The fact the Delver is a kind of 'eventual-threat' is pretty awesome, since the {U} cost is cheap enough that you are getting to the 'multiple spells a turn' stage of the game faster. Sure, traditional aggro decks may be casting multiple spells from turn 2, but Delver actually represents a meaningful threat in the midgame, where your 2/1 is not.

On the 1-power Prowess guys, I see what you are saying. Swiftspear might not be where I want to be. I am still going to try Jeskai Elder, I can always go back to a Looter il-Kor if it doesn't work out, but I like the dynamic of a saboteur with Prowess (on that note... Jhessian Thief? Seems a little weak, but might be worth a try).

Chris, was it you that was exploring White CMC restricted reanimation and colour-shifted Unearth? It is an idea I have had rattling around my head a bit lately and want to discuss. I will take it to your thread.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
FWIW, I have added a white unearth, but it's been odd. Maybe my drafters don't really like it, but it's basically only seen play returning eternal witness and bone shredder, so I'm not sure I'd recommend adding it's closest real equivalent: return to the ranks. Maybe your drafters like it more?

Swiftspear is better than most of the other 1 power prowess guys, since the 2 toughness is this weird kind of evasion, and the expectations of 1 drops are lower, (Lucas has apparently won a lot of games VIA attacking for 1 and 2 recently, as long as he can keep doing it), but I really want to caution against treating cards like Jeskai Sage, Jeskai Student, etc as proper damaging attackers, since they don't really end up doing enough.
 

Laz

Developer
I have put together a shell of aggro cards across Red, White, Black and Blue here, and I think the core components are pretty solid, and weave together in interesting ways. An interesting part of the exercise was realising that provided your 1-drops and 2-drops have 2 power, you can basically flavour with whichever upside you want in order to emphasise different themes. I think this is similar to the realisation about big control finishers. It doesn't actually matter which ones you choose, the role they play is basically the same, be a resilient threat to close out the game with, so debating Sphinx of Jwar Isle, versus Frost Titan, versus Aetherling is ultimately a matter of taste, and you are probably going to be ok with any one of them.

Armed with this information, I just added Savannah Lions, Grizzly Bears and Goblin Pikers with upside to emphasise a the main interesting aggressive themes I had in mind, humans, go-wide, sacrifice-aggro and spell-based aggro. There is some pretty reasonable overlap between these, such as go-wide producing a lot of sacrifice fodder and Human tribal running parallel to each of the themes.
This overlap can also be seen in many of the cards that I added, with Consul's Lieutenant a human anthem, Humble Defector a human sacrifice, and Young Pyromancer a go-wide, spell-oriented human, who produces sacrifices. Yeah, that card is great.

Something that hasn't come up yet is equipment, and artifacts as a whole. Since I am not intending to run Jitte and the Swords of Protection from Whole Decks, there is no easy density of equipment. I have no issue with their being competing demand for equipment, since between recursive small threats, evasive threats and future artifact themes I am sure many people will find a use for it, I do have an issue with my equipment numbers. At present, I have a few pieces of general equipment (2x Bonesplitter, 2x Grafted Wargear), a piece for sac-aggro (Sylvok Lifestaff), one for spell-based (Runechanter's Pike) and a couple of more control-oriented pieces (Haunted Plate Mail, Tatsumasa). I feel I might want a couple more pieces, but I don't know what to add. I am not convinced I want equipment that explicitly supports go-wide (since Sigil of Valor and Pennon Blade are kind of eh). Any thoughts on exciting equipment? At the moment I am thinking something like O-Naginata or even Loxodon Warhammer.

Artifacts more generally? That is something I need to do more exploration of.
 
Before you decide to go with stoneforge I'd do a an as-fan calculation and look at what equipment you'd actually wanna run. I've heard people talk about running not high-power stoneforge and it's gotten mixed results.

Really like the list though! Might take some notes :) In the red section, what do you feel about making the block-disruption section larger? Like EoT Menace effects. Personally I've started to get really fond of cards like firefist striker (I maybe will add a second copy) and pyreheart wolf and goblin heelcutter (also fix that cmc in the cubetutor its a 3-drop :p). At what point is there enough critical mass for act of treason effects to be pickable?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
How do you want the cards to interact with your removal?

There are a few cards that I really dislike:




Aether adept's package I think is largely obsolete in most cubes, though if you are to run that card, I would much rather see the splashable man-o'-war. Vexing Sphinx is one of the classic "blue aggro" trap cards, and I think any number of comparable 3/4s for 3 in blue should be considered before it. Reckless reveler type cards I've never really liked: its just a very bad body in general at a very bad cost. Humble defector looks pretty bad in most scenarios. There also seems like a lot of singleton breaking, which is fine for an early draft, but it would be nice to see that tightened up a bit.

I also don't really care for slow anthem effects: consul's lieutenant and accorder paladin, which I think are just easy to play around. Mentor of the meek I would assume is way too low powered.

All of the savannah lions that are not named bloodsoaked champion I, of course, dislike.

I think if you have any reasonable dash creatures you've left out, those would be good inclusions. I also would like to see some more delve creatures and spells, as well as playable prowess creatures, as they really reward spell velocity.

I'm really skeptical on stoneforge in cube. Haunted plate mail and dragon's fang I don't think are very good in general--but you could update that entire tinker artifact package i.m.o with thopter spy network, pyromancer's goggles, hangarback walker, feldon of the third path, daretti, scrap savant, oblivion stone, and perilous vault. That whole theme got much better with orgins release. I think you are already running sharding sphinx?

If you are going to go with an equipment heavy approach, it might ultimately be better to think of it in terms of supporting a pants deck: den protector etc. Would be interesting to see what you cook up.
 
Building partly off of Grillo's comments:

I personally rather like Aether Adept, and I find the human synergies and it being somewhat harder to cast to be worth it over Man-o'-Whatever. The double-CC means it shows up less reliably in 3-colour+ decks. That's fine in my book; I think rewarding going deep with 2 colours is a good thing. YPMV (Your Philosophy May Vary).

I also have to dissent on Consul's Lieutenant; the first strike keeps it rather relevant. Accorder Paladin is dreadful, though, and not worth a slot. (If you're looking to do white tokens, Precinct Captain is kinda a cool choice, btw.) Mentor of the Meek has done Okay over here so far, but nothing too exciting yet; I just put it in, so, that's not too surprising! It's very format-dependent, but if it can do well in mine, which is pretty power-packed, I see no reason why it couldn't do fine or better in others. YMMV.

I'm very perplexed why blue doesn't have Jeskai Elder or Jhessian Thief, two of its better aggressive-oriented cards that are also very nice looters. I also think Azure Mage and Tandem Lookout deserve a space in most every cube, too. Consider them, I think you'll be pleased if you try them. Running all of them together gives blue a very nice card-selection/advantage-through-combat angle, too, which is, I think, also Rather Cool.

Mikaeus was never good over here.

Humble Defecator (yes, that's deliberate) has always been real crappy over here; Reveler is similarly a bit of a "what???" card. I'd pass on them both, for sure.

Re: equipment - Loxodon Warhammer is outrageously powerful. Outrageously. It requires a format that has efficient creature removal to be tolerable in, and even then, it's really, really, really powerful. I run it right now, and it can really run away with games. If you try it, be very, very mindful. Sword of the Animist has been cool over here, and the extra +1 to toughness has mattered plenty; it's worth a shot if you're in the market for more equipment.

I hope any of this was useful; I'm probably not familiar enough with your format to really say any of this advice was any good, hahah
 

Laz

Developer
Thanks for the great feedback guys.

The majority of the cards you have pointed out fall into two camps for me, cards that represent me falling back into the ruts of some older design, and cards which I think are interesting enough to be worth trying, but that I am not sold on. I can see wanting to move away from Aether Adept and Reckless Reveller. Aether Adept was mostly a hold-over from other builds, but I will attempt be more creative with the Tempo plays available. Reckless Reveller was just a throw in to increase the density of effects that deal with artifacts, but it is a pretty marginal card. I have no issue getting rid of them now you have forced me to pay more attention to their abilities to justify their slots. Accorder Paladin probably also falls into this camp, and I will be on the lookout for something else to take this spot.

Vexing Sphinx and Humble Defector are cards that I haven't had a chance to test before, and appear to do interesting things. I could completely believe that they won't work out. I think that Vexing Sphinx probably sends the wrong message, and is also a little difficult to grok, so probably isn't worth the slot. Humble Defector I still want to at least try, and as a red 2-drop, he is very easily replaceable if it doesn't work out.

I appreciate a lot of the concern about Stoneforge, which is why I was asking about equipment. I can understand concerns around Haunted Plate Mail and Tatsumasa, but Haunted Plate Mail is a bit of a pet card, and it actually tends to play pretty well. Tatsumasa, yeah... it is a card that is forced to pay through the nose for its flexibility. While it does serve as a pretty resilient finisher for control decks, and sometimes just makes creatures huge, it suffers from the '6 mana to not affect the board'. Equipment feels like it is in such a weird place, with very few pieces balancing somewhere on the narrow ledge between unplayable rubbish and GRBS. Bonesplitter and Grafted Wargear are uninteresting but functional, while most of the interesting equipment is either broken or non-functional (and I can willingly admit that Haunted Plate Mail and Tatsumasa are on this side of the divide).
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
One thing to pay attention to is that literally any piece of equipment plays well in a go wide strategy, since you've got a lot of mostly annoying to interact with dudes to suit up. Throwing bonesplitter on half of dragon fodder, trading up and then equipping something else is a satisfying route to victory after all.

Snap Judgements on various equipment:
-Bonesplitter: Awesome
-Wargear: Little wary of more than 1, this card is real good
-Runechanter's Pike: I want to like it, but you'll soon come to see the vast gulf between young pyromancer and prowess guys, and this card mirror's that perfectly. Realistically it could probably be tweaked to be fixed, but I've found that equipment is kinda like mana leak: Not really a place you need to introduce scaling.
-Sylvok Lifestaff: This doesn't seem like the reward I want for my sac deck. Also noting the +1/+0, it doesn't really do enough on it's own (Leonin Scimitar), so the lifegain clause does have to come into play to make it worth it.

Now, concerning Reckless Reveler, the body being bad and the ability costing too much is real. You can build a cube where he's just wholly unnecessary, but I understand the want for cards like wargear to have a downside as well.

Here's the card I'd recommend if you wanted something like him but actually good:
Reckless Smashy Guy {R}{1}
Creature - Human Warrior
Menace
Sacrifice ~: Destroy target artifact.
2/1

Ire Shaman with a different upside. I know customs are a solution I jump too far too easily, but what else are we doing here, hearth kami?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
RBM might ultimately be right about consul's Lieutenant. I've not played with the card in cube, and it is a really well designed renown card. My issue with it is that it takes a lot of work to get to the point where you can anthem with it, and usually I find those attack anthem's too clunky. But maybe the card is less about consistent anthem effects and more about the threat of anthem effects.

I agree with chris' equipment judgments. I rather like lifestaff though, but he is right about the lifegain clause needing to carry it, which it can do in certain matchups. In an aggro mirror, a resolved lifestaff is just backbreaking, and if you are running goblin sharpshooter it can lend itself to boardstates where the red deck can take firm board control.

Still, you probably want to find some solid red or black cards that damage their controller if you are going to run it. Any sort of good life pay card. The classic pauper example is sparksmith and pestilence, but you are probably looking more to staple lifestaff to a cheap value aggro creature and than use stuff like slagstorm or char.

As for artifact destruction, I'm experimenting with that, but I'm leaning towards ingot chewer and smash to smithereens at the moment. Ingot chewer's cheapness is important for an aggro deck tight on mana, and it offers the potential for a reasonably sized body in the event the aggro deck is somewhat flooded. The three damage from smash helps makeup for the time spent casting it.

None of these are perfect though, and my aggro decks have a lot more potential targets, including value targets for ingot chewer. So you might have to resign yourself to these being sideboard cards, or try chris' custom (which looks quite reasonable btw).
 

Laz

Developer
For the last month or so, I have been slowly pecking at my list, trying to get the important core cards into place.

Current State

There are a lot of ideas here, some of which were discussed earlier in this thread, and others which have been brought in from elsewhere. Ideas from the Restrictive Reanimation thread, and from the discussions of discard suites have been included, so some concepts would probably be deemed 'experimental'. The discard suite I decided to go with looks to create space for aggressive decks against midrange decks, with 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, Blackmail and Despise at 1-CMC. The fact that none of these are likely to be able to grab a Wrath from the hand of a control deck is weighing on my mind, and this leads into my next point. Aggressive decks looks to have slowed down slightly as I have moved away from Sligh aggro towards spell-based, human-based white weenie and sacrifice aggressive decks, with a lot more focus upon getting past blockers as opposed to simply overrunning the opponent with Savannah Lions. As such, perhaps like Wizards and Standard, turn 4 Wraths are not where I want to be, and I might migrate from Day of Judgment and Wrath of God to the far more interesting selection of 5 CMC Wraths. This also (hopefully) forces control decks to leverage cards that Inquisition of Kozilek can interact with.

There are hints of an artifact theme here, and I am still trying to determine where I want to take it. The 'fair-Tinker' path I went down previously was never amazing, I suspect because I played it fairly safe with the targets. I am not sure if the flexibility of being able to go and grab a Wrath, a Needle, a removal spell, etc is worth the drafting and deck building sacrifice (though... phrased like that...). Daretti and Goblin Welder offer a lot of what 'fair-Tinker' offered, but in a reusable package. Tinker is obviously busted when it is getting Blightsteel Colossi and the like, but Goblin Welder feels a little more honest, and transforms Tinker from less of a 2-card I win, to more of a 3-card combo, because you have to get things into the graveyard somehow.

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts, and like last time, hearing about cards that people hate seeing (Don't tell me about Humble Defector, I want to try him for myself!).
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Notes:
  • I forgot to mention this last time, but another one of the issues with Sylvok Lifestaff is that the sacrifice deck tends to be the beatdown in most matchups, so the lifegain will matter less and less the more inclined your opponent is to block instead of race. It's not wholly useless to be at 56 against your control opponent, but it probably contributes less to your chances of victory than another 1 drop would.
  • What's the intent behind Spectral Procession? The card is good, and if you want to reward mono color decks it's a decent one, but if it's just in here because Midnight Haunting is a bit below the curve, then I could suggest other things.
  • Double Snapcaster excites and scares me :p Keep a sharp eye on the removal there, Snapcaster usually makes for a far better Shriekmaw than he does Man-o'-War
  • Slagstorm is alright, but I think the players mode is chosen about 1/100 times. Anger of the Gods is there if you'd like a way to interact with gravecrawler, and Firespout is a nice alternative if you think your drafters can parse out that nobody cares if you pay green mana for it unless you control a delver. Up to you if you want a 3CC sweeper to be splashable. Maybe sprinkle in enough flying that it never really gets anything unless you actually pay 1RG?
  • Scuttling DOOM ENGINE makes me happy :D
  • Tangle Wire is a card that works really well with the artifact theme but basically just ends up making people miserable. I'd cut it, especially with Welder as an archetype
  • Scavenging Ooze might a bit above the Jedi Curve here
 
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Laz

Developer
Thanks for the feedback Chris, I really appreciate it.

I do understand the semi-awkwardness of Sylvok Lifestaff, I will keep an eye on it, but I think it comes down to the 'Equipment is in a weird spot' issue. Maybe I should just go lighter on it full stop, and have 2x Bonesplitter, 2x Grafted Wargear and a Pike and call it a day. Or just wheel out Skullclamp as an incentive for the sacrifice decks... It feels like I am really trying to make every card justify its slot at the moment.

Spectral Procession... yeah. That card is kind of in there as an 'oh, I need some tokens' card, and it just carried over from this cube's previous form. There is a bit of reward for playing tight with your mana in this iteration, with far more CC cards than I had included previously, but Spectral Procession seems like an odd payoff for that. If you have other cards which could fulfil that sort of requirement, I would love to hear about them. I suspect I will replace it with Hallowed Spiritkeeper, since that card is awesome, but other options are welcome.

Snappy is great. I have two in at the moment and it is great in all sorts of decks (funnily enough, it is a really good card... who would have thunk it?). I don't find getting a re-buy on early removal is too punishing, but I will have to watch it in this new environment. The removal is quite strong, but I have some room to manoeuvre with downsides and restrictions.

I finished writing my response, and then realised I hadn't really created any talking points, which is probably not the best state to leave the thread in. As such, it may be worth elaborating on my thoughts with regards to this concept slight tweaks to high power removal, beginning exploring high-power but with minor downsides and restrictions.
My thinking is that we want to get away from cards like Doom Blade, which represent a 2-mana pretty-much unconditional instant speed piece of interaction. It also happens to be pretty much the cube gold-standard of removal. We don't want to get too far away though, and there are a lot of knobs here to influence its effect; the immediate ones I see are as follows:
  • Sorcery Speed
  • More conditional
  • More difficult to cast
  • Require some pre-work
If we look for Doom Blade equivalents which have one of these attributes, we get quite an interesting list of cards:

I am confident that there are more cards in this vein, such as the other {B}{B} cards Malicious Affliction and Grasp of Darkness (I am assuming that Victim of Night basically reads 'Destroy target creature.' and so is less restrictive than these others). I also don't know where Murderous Cut slots in, but I know that I want to play it. I am not convinced that this is a good approach, but it may be something interesting to try, and swapping out Snuff Out, Go for the Throat and Doom Blade for a couple of drafts is not really a big deal for me.

Slagstorm can become Anger of the Gods, no complaints from me. I don't think I want a very high density of these cheap board wipes, but I was excited by the 'Aggressive decks that can play sweepers' line that come up in the Restrictive Reanimation thread. Anger is a bit of a non-bo there without a sacrifice outlet, but I agree it is probably better overall.
DOOOOOOM! This one was added while I was thinking about Tinker as more of a reanimation effect. Doom Engine is a solid threat, but doesn't immediately end the game, and offers some value to the player with Tinker even if it is immediately removed.
Aw... I like Tangle Wire. The card draws out the early game really effectively, but then suddenly the game is anyone's to win over again. I see how it could be oppressive with Welder, but Welder/Daretti are competing with the streamlined wide-ish aggro deck for the card. I am going to leave it for now, and then see how much complaining my drafters do when someone builds Daretti prison...
Scavenging Ooze, too powerful? I thought the power level was pretty high here, but yeah, it is a strong card.

As before, thanks for the thoughts.
 
Sylvok Lifestaff is cute, but I think it's only really useful against aggro, either in the aggro vs. aggro matchup or in an attrition based sacrifice deck against aggro. I'm not sure it's a keeper.

If you kep slagstorm over anger of the gods I'd be interested to see how you get on. I too quite like the idea that aggro is able to pick it up to burn face as well.

I think the faster your aggro decks, the more oppressive the welder is. I have a soft spot for the card, but haven't been playing it, but might need to reconsider. I think it's one to keep an eye on. Unless players have experience of it, it's not usually something that is picked up on.

Scavenging Ooze seems fine here.

I think there's a huge bunch of interesting removal effects you could use, in black I'm liking:

 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Thanks for the feedback Chris, I really appreciate it.
Anytime man! :p
I do understand the semi-awkwardness of Sylvok Lifestaff, I will keep an eye on it, but I think it comes down to the 'Equipment is in a weird spot' issue. Maybe I should just go lighter on it full stop, and have 2x Bonesplitter, 2x Grafted Wargear and a Pike and call it a day. Or just wheel out Skullclamp as an incentive for the sacrifice decks... It feels like I am really trying to make every card justify its slot at the moment.
Having everything justified is the mark of a good cube :p Don't forget that you can justify stuff by saying "Fuck it, I like it" too.
Equipment at it's core isn't insanely necessary, but if gives aggro decks a way to compete in the lategame, and allows them to commit to the board without being insanely blown out by wrath. There's both other methods of doing that and other methods of mitigating it's need.

That being said, I'll let you know if there's any really good equipment I come up with :p
Spectral Procession... yeah. That card is kind of in there as an 'oh, I need some tokens' card, and it just carried over from this cube's previous form. There is a bit of reward for playing tight with your mana in this iteration, with far more CC cards than I had included previously, but Spectral Procession seems like an odd payoff for that. If you have other cards which could fulfil that sort of requirement, I would love to hear about them. I suspect I will replace it with Hallowed Spiritkeeper, since that card is awesome, but other options are welcome.
As I said with the prowess stuff, Battle Screech has been amazing for me. Hallowed Spiritkeeper is really good, a lot like Blade Splicer, but with more of the power shifted to the back end, which is probably a positive. Double Blade Splicer could be cool too, with the Welders. I wonder if Blade Splicer itself was an artifact...
Snappy is great. I have two in at the moment and it is great in all sorts of decks (funnily enough, it is a really good card... who would have thunk it?). I don't find getting a re-buy on early removal is too punishing, but I will have to watch it in this new environment. The removal is quite strong, but I have some room to manoeuvre with downsides and restrictions.
Snapping back doom blade doesn't scare me, snapping back Arc Trail or other cheap 2 for 1s wiping out your opponent's first 4 threats scares me.
It's also an insanely versatile split card, but that's the icing. Again, it excites me too :p
I finished writing my response, and then realised I hadn't really created any talking points, which is probably not the best state to leave the thread in. As such, it may be worth elaborating on my thoughts with regards to this concept slight tweaks to high power removal, beginning exploring high-power but with minor downsides and restrictions.
My thinking is that we want to get away from cards like Doom Blade, which represent a 2-mana pretty-much unconditional instant speed piece of interaction. It also happens to be pretty much the cube gold-standard of removal. We don't want to get too far away though, and there are a lot of knobs here to influence its effect; the immediate ones I see are as follows:
  • Sorcery Speed
  • More conditional
  • More difficult to cast
  • Require some pre-work
If we look for Doom Blade equivalents which have one of these attributes, we get quite an interesting list of cards:


I am confident that there are more cards in this vein, such as the other {B}{B} cards Malicious Affliction and Grasp of Darkness (I am assuming that Victim of Night basically reads 'Destroy target creature.' and so is less restrictive than these others). I also don't know where Murderous Cut slots in, but I know that I want to play it. I am not convinced that this is a good approach, but it may be something interesting to try, and swapping out Snuff Out, Go for the Throat and Doom Blade for a couple of drafts is not really a big deal for me.
I think victim is probably safe, though (even though it requires more setup) I'd shy away from Malicious Affliction for the snapcaster reasons mentioned above. Dreadbore is solid, I love downfall so much I added a second, and Tragic Slip is sweet.
Grasp of Darkness and Diabolic Edict are ones I've never had any success with, edict especially. I've got more random undying guys than average, but I'm still not convinced killing your opponent's worst creature is worth it.
Murderous Cut is also an option under the "Requires some work". I've also found Reave Soul to be totally fine.
Slagstorm can become Anger of the Gods, no complaints from me. I don't think I want a very high density of these cheap board wipes, but I was excited by the 'Aggressive decks that can play sweepers' line that come up in the Restrictive Reanimation thread. Anger is a bit of a non-bo there without a sacrifice outlet, but I agree it is probably better overall.
Maybe you're right. The sweeper in an aggro deck idea I had was more protection/indestructible, and less undying.
I dunno I take my graveyard hate where ever I can :p
DOOOOOOM! This one was added while I was thinking about Tinker as more of a reanimation effect. Doom Engine is a solid threat, but doesn't immediately end the game, and offers some value to the player with Tinker even if it is immediately removed.
"When scuttling doom engine dies, destroy target planeswalker"
I should add this guy again :p
Aw... I like Tangle Wire. The card draws out the early game really effectively, but then suddenly the game is anyone's to win over again. I see how it could be oppressive with Welder, but Welder/Daretti are competing with the streamlined wide-ish aggro deck for the card. I am going to leave it for now, and then see how much complaining my drafters do when someone builds Daretti prison...
Eh, this one is a new cut for me. I found it never really actually drew the game out, it was just a one sided armageddon.
Scavenging Ooze, too powerful? I thought the power level was pretty high here, but yeah, it is a strong card.
As before, thanks for the thoughts.

He's approaching wurmcoil status for me. I think we all knew about how insane it was against red, where it's essentially indestructible and makes racing impossible, but I've also taking over other match-ups as well. White and Black have a decent time, but give it lots of food, and blue can bounce it, but as a 2 drop it's resilient to alot of the soft countermagic that can be present. It's also bigger than most green creatures in short order if that's what they're playing.[/quote]
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Life staff is really good if you have a bunch of value dudes running around doomed to the bin, or life pay strategies that can benefit from that.

Edit effects are great if you have people investing in single threats. Than you can get people metadecking where they are looking for edict fodder. I also like the double edict effects, cards like consuming vapors or barter in blood. They make black mass removal feel distinct.

Murderous cut is great, and I feel that the new awaken hero's downfall should be in the conversation somewhere.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Ruinous path is basically fine and while I like Awaken I'm not sure I care enough :p

The problem I had with edict effects was that even the single threat decks had a random support creature lying around.
 

Laz

Developer
Lifestaff is out. Love affair over.

I did bring in both Battle Screech and Hallowed Spiritkeeper. Sue me.

I absolutely agree with your concerns about Snapcaster buying back a cheap 2-for-1. With the density of 1-toughness creatures here, Forked Bolt or Arc Trail would be a supremely oppressive cards. Luckily I planned for this or something, and all of the easy 2-for-1 removal has a way of keeping itself out of the way of ol'Snappy. Firebolt doesn't really need a Snapcaster flash back, and Staggershock is less staggering the second time around, though just as shocking.

On Edicts, I have found them really variable. I suspect they will be worse in this new environment than they have been previously, since I have pushed utility 2-drops really hard (on that note, thoughts on a second copy of Return to the Ranks? Or a first copy of Rally the Ancestors?). I find the Edict effect on Liliana is often brutal, but that may simply be because 'that is the ability to use when it happens to be good', plus, it does leave behind a planeswalker. Diabolic Edict on the other hand doesn't really offer the same flexibility. Grillo raises a good point on double Edicts, which really change the dynamics of the effect a lot. Barter in Blood has been in and out of my cube like a yo-yo, but lost out most recently when I added Damnation, not sure what I am going to do from a mass-removal perspective this time. I have mentioned moving up to 5CMC Wraths, but not sure how this will apply to black. Consuming Vapors gets its first run this time, but was on the bench forever.

Perhaps worth considering if I include my favourite pair of invulnerable creatures, Predator Ooze and Falkenrath Aristocrat. I like how Predator Ooze becomes a little in-game puzzle, but is a little dorky. The Aristocrat is awesome, but eventually runs out of food, so is less of a problem. I probably just need to remember to have some density of -x/-x effects in my removal suite. Bile Blight, as Alfonzo suggested sounds great, even if I did just make all of my 1/1 flying tokens inconsistent by adding Battle Screech (This is an absolute lie. I already had a bunch of Thopters...).
 

Laz

Developer
Ding! We hit 360 by adding a few cards here and there.

Now, I know it is a little hard to process whole cube lists, so I am sorry for just putting the list out there, but maybe give it a draft and see how it unfolds.

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/36865

Any and all feedback appreciated, as always.
 
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