General Fight Club

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, I mostly have a problem with protection because it can randomly blank entire decks, and prevent them from interacting meaningfully. Hexproof, to a lesser extent, also ignores large swaths of cards in certain matchups, making any inclusion with it a card to watch carefully. Meanwhile, "can't be countered" is unlikely to nullify entire decks in cube environments; it's not really possible to draft draw-go, even in the slowest and durdliest of cubes.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, I mostly have a problem with protection because it can randomly blank entire decks, and prevent them from interacting meaningfully. Hexproof, to a lesser extent, also ignores large swaths of cards in certain matchups, making any inclusion with it a card to watch carefully. Meanwhile, "can't be countered" is unlikely to nullify entire decks in cube environments; it's not really possible to draft draw-go, even in the slowest and durdliest of cubes.
And even traditional draw-go decks needed a few answers for those permanents (creatures mostly) that got through their counterspells!
 
I want a counter at {U}{U} that isn't Counterspell. I've narrowed it down to three options:



Where I'm at on each:

Deprive is basically counterspell, but interesting enough to dull my misgivings about how carefully I've tried to sculpt my counters suite. It might just be the final grain of sand that brings scrylands in at 360! I might just add them if I go up to 405, though, and losing a land drop is shitty otherwise. (i bet the foil's gorgeous)

I don't really have anything that can make a lock with CB, and blind Counterbalance isn't necessarily incredible. It feels disheartening to lots of people, and I'm not interested in stopping people from having fun. The problem is that I find Counterbalance (and playing against it) incredibly fun and am a terrible judge here. With around 70 one- and three-drops and 90 two-drops though I really want to test it out.
CML PLEASE RENDER YOUR COLDSNAP EXPERT OPINION

Redirect is hilarious. It's also pretty swingy and when it isn't swingy it's uncastable. Casting it on Auras has memory issues over the course of a night, and at that point why not just cast Negate? Mostly I want to see if it supports proactive decks and protect-the-queen strategies. Maybe Dualcaster Mage is worth another try?

I'd disqualify it immediately on the basis of flavour text, but the M11 version is better:
"Your strategy is marvelous. I've just made a few minor adjustments."
—Veris, watcher of Indi Keep

(is there any way in the card images BBcode to specify a card's edition?)
 
For me Redirect seems like a bad Negate due to missing enchants/artifacts/walkers and frankly I don't like Negate because justifying non-creatures in cube can sometimes be rather tricky, anyway. I'm tempted by all the cool, niche plays you might get out of it, but I'm not sure I'm sold. It seems very sensitive to power level and I dunno if it'd get ran over here since we rarely sideboard and holding up UU to jiggle around a specific subset of spells isn't always reasonable.

Deprive seems marvelous if you're looking to fool around with power level, but I felt that for conditional counterspells, Prohibit was as conditional as I wanted. I find it hard to imagine feeling good casting Deprive before T5 though, and without Scrylands (which everyone should run, they're awesome!) I'm not feeling it.

Counterbalance looks awesomely fun and I've considered running it, as well. We love crazy decks over here, but it's definitely a playgroup-dependent choice. Without ample TOL manipulation, I worry it just feels too skill-less, though. It's one thing to be hosed by a well-crafted deck utilizing Top/Crystal Ball/Brainstorm/etc, but being randomly countered by a deck that has no way to juice up the plan has got to be a bit of an "uh... oh, I guess it's countered.. darn." sort of feeling.

Of the three, I'd pick Counterbalance and watch it carefully for my own format, but it seems really group-sensitive. Control decks want land too much over here to justify Deprive, though, and Redirect has exactly the problem you describe, being occasionally hilarious sometimes but probably frustrating/uncastable too often (I'd be more open to Misdirection personally).
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I've used Deprive on an off over the years. It's a hard counter that sometimes gets stuck in my hand, with me staring at it missing land drop after land drop, thinking it's just about the worst card in Magic; other times, I've thrown in another marginal counterspell in its place, drawn that, and wished it were Deprive. It's pretty much a late-game-only counterspell, much in same vein as Logic Knot, and not even the best one at that, but I like it more than the other choices.

For the card images, we don't have anything that lets you specify additional attributes such as the expansion; the workaround would be to find an image with the appropriate artwork/flavour text/etc., then just drag & drop the image directly onto the text area, in lieu of using [ci] tags. It's an excellent idea, though - I'll put that on my to-do list!
 
I ran counterbalance back in the day. It's good with top of library manipulation (top, etc.). Blind, it's fully dependent on the speed of the format. Very low curves, it can hit randomly enough to where it feels worth it. Also nice sometimes to see the top card of your library to plan ahead. But I don't think it will work in cube unless you pair it with other things like top and brainstorm.
 

CML

Contributor
I for one like Counterspell. It's about the right power level for my Cube. Rather run 4 Rune Snags before Deprive, bouncing a land is real bad in this format compared to Legacy, etc. I also dislike Daze in Cube and compulsively play 4 in Legacy all the time
 

Aoret

Developer
I also dislike Daze in Cube and compulsively play 4 in Legacy all the time

Have you thought much about why you don't like it in cube CML or is it just more of a gut feeling? I kinda like Daze, although I get gotten by it a shitload. But I've never actually played Legacy so I think that's making me a little biased in favor of playing the card.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Daze is good, but the real money is force spike. The feeling of force spiking a critical high cc spell, and the look on an opponent's face when you do so, is one of the finest feelings in the game of magic.
 

CML

Contributor
Have you thought much about why you don't like it in cube CML or is it just more of a gut feeling? I kinda like Daze, although I get gotten by it a shitload. But I've never actually played Legacy so I think that's making me a little biased in favor of playing the card.


so when you pick up a land ...

no matter how well we design our cubes and no matter how relentlessly we cut 4's they're still going to be very high on the curve compared to legacy with daze or even modern with deprive. this decompression of curve makes daze substantially worse at countering things, too. manabases also wont be nearly as slick as modern or legacy, so UU is more of a real cost. finally, lowering the curve has allowed us to buff control to counteract aggro, so a card as good as counterspell is right at home.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Does it look kind of like this?


No, that daze art is really bad. More like this:

urlll.jpg
 
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