Isn't the Johnny mentality very much about taking this piece and that piece and (even though it might be highly unlikely) try to put them together like some kind of muddly mixture and hope they get some crazy effect? Like Ion Storm and +1/+1 one drops sounds like a great way to try to get a Johnny going, where a spike might think the cost for the effect is too much.
General Making Aggro more inclusive
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
I think you're over emphasizing the Spike/Timmy/Johnny player types. They really aren't this clear cut and each player likes to do different things so trying to appeal to distinct aggro-johnny and aggro-timmy players is a very odd suggestion to me since everything meshes into midrange strategies if the players don't end up building your vision.
I'm mostly a johnny who loves synergy. And the design doesn't need to be too complex (burning vengeance and spider spawning are plenty to play towards). Ion storm is really not much of an aggro card at all because of the mana barrier. If I see it, I just want to set up my source of counters and shoot everything in the mid-endgame.
Gravecrawlers (with something like carrion feeder) are an elegant design that theoretically should appeal to every type of player. And the human tribal should be plenty for the Timmys, though I would lean towards bestow and auras in general to let them voltron up their creature.
I'm mostly a johnny who loves synergy. And the design doesn't need to be too complex (burning vengeance and spider spawning are plenty to play towards). Ion storm is really not much of an aggro card at all because of the mana barrier. If I see it, I just want to set up my source of counters and shoot everything in the mid-endgame.
Gravecrawlers (with something like carrion feeder) are an elegant design that theoretically should appeal to every type of player. And the human tribal should be plenty for the Timmys, though I would lean towards bestow and auras in general to let them voltron up their creature.
I would think timmy looks at Tajic and thinks "4 mana 2/2, this is terrible". Basically it's very subjective, the fastest way to develop a new theme that your players want to draft is to ask them if they like certain cards or strategies.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I realize there is some limitations to the terminology, this is just the best that I have to work with to describe creative games, flashy gamers, and competitive gamers.
Well, let me give you some examples and see if that helps clarify things.
My list has more of a limited than constructed feel to it, so I’m using terms like "aggro" "midrange" and "control" loosely--my real focus is getting rid of the narrow early beaters, and running cards that appeal to a range of players. Gravecrawler, for example and as you noted, has been a great success in that regard. While it’s capable of showing up in a true aggro list whose curve tops out at 3, my Johnny player frequently drafts it and comes up with all sorts of nonsense to do with it. Now, he isn't drafting an "aggro" deck, he is drafting one of his weird combo brews whose curve can go all the way up to 12 depending on what he is trying to do.
I'm ok with that, because a good amount of the time, he will go turn 1 gravecrawler and there will be ground pressure. He gets to have the fun of exploring the gamespace, but at the same time, the format as a whole benefits because there are is a greater density of small beaters providing early pressure. I would like to do that with the other colors.
That’s kind of what I was thinking of with ion storm, but with exploiting counters on small early beaters as a resource. However, if that is something that you as a Johnny player wouldn't find interesting, thank you for letting me know beforehand.
One thing that I am trying now is to bring back in some of the ramp cards, but move the effect onto creatures with more aggressive stats: viridian emissaryand generator servant.
Well, let me give you some examples and see if that helps clarify things.
My list has more of a limited than constructed feel to it, so I’m using terms like "aggro" "midrange" and "control" loosely--my real focus is getting rid of the narrow early beaters, and running cards that appeal to a range of players. Gravecrawler, for example and as you noted, has been a great success in that regard. While it’s capable of showing up in a true aggro list whose curve tops out at 3, my Johnny player frequently drafts it and comes up with all sorts of nonsense to do with it. Now, he isn't drafting an "aggro" deck, he is drafting one of his weird combo brews whose curve can go all the way up to 12 depending on what he is trying to do.
I'm ok with that, because a good amount of the time, he will go turn 1 gravecrawler and there will be ground pressure. He gets to have the fun of exploring the gamespace, but at the same time, the format as a whole benefits because there are is a greater density of small beaters providing early pressure. I would like to do that with the other colors.
That’s kind of what I was thinking of with ion storm, but with exploiting counters on small early beaters as a resource. However, if that is something that you as a Johnny player wouldn't find interesting, thank you for letting me know beforehand.
One thing that I am trying now is to bring back in some of the ramp cards, but move the effect onto creatures with more aggressive stats: viridian emissaryand generator servant.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Thrummingbird and Volt Charge are awesome with +1/+1 counters!
Right, I really like the direction of your cube because of the depth of some of the card combinations.
To clarify, I really enjoy using counters as resources and ion storm looks like a nice build around. I just think resulting combo brew would want to take advantage of cards like golgari grave troll for example and be far from aggressive. Experiment 1 would still be interesting in this type of combination, however I would be hardpressed to depend on stromkirk nobles as a source of counters. On a side note, I think blade of the bloodchief would be pretty insane in that combo.
You can even put it on this one and rock a BR ion vampires deck
Grillo, is it worth laying out a few options and asking for feedback about what the players think 'sound cool'? Might give you a bit of direction to expand upon and you probably have a few options.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So, here is the list of cards i've gathered from this thread to submit for review:
I will explain to them the ideas behind the themes, so we will see what happens. I think I am in a good spot with Timmy, so right now I just have to close the gap with johnny. Unfortunatly, I don't have the space, but if I could run a goblins tribal theme, Timmy says he would love it.
As an aside, protean hulk was voted to replace woodfall primus, so that should be interesting.
I will explain to them the ideas behind the themes, so we will see what happens. I think I am in a good spot with Timmy, so right now I just have to close the gap with johnny. Unfortunatly, I don't have the space, but if I could run a goblins tribal theme, Timmy says he would love it.
As an aside, protean hulk was voted to replace woodfall primus, so that should be interesting.
Laz
Developer
I wouldn't worry too much about the Johnny player. Throw some Tezzeret's Gambits and Volt Charges in there and the Johnny will see value engines everywhere.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I suspect he will go nuts at thrummingbird.
Laz
Developer
Situational cards are fine, provided the situation comes up often enough, and the card isn't super poisonous. Likewise, making things more inclusive hardly something to sneer at, we are all slaves to our playgroups, whether we choose to admit it or not. There is no point to designing a cube that means players aren't able to have fun, especially if your pool of potential players is small. I think some of the problem is people simply constantly drafting 'comfort-zone' decks, and shaking it up with themes that are desirable to multiple types of players is a great way to force people into different things.
What do you think about this? Neuters Finks, Splicer, and tokens, boosts undying and anything else to do with counters. With time, it can take out the largest army, but plays politics by ignoring everyone else's board.
I like, but not sure it's an aggro card by any stretch... 
CML
Contributor
What do you think about this? Neuters Finks, Splicer, and tokens, boosts undying and anything else to do with counters. With time, it can take out the largest army, but plays politics by ignoring everyone else's board.
Probably worth a try. Really crappy cards are often playable because they're artifacts
On that topic, how do we feel about these
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I run or have ran all six of these. Now that Tinker is gone, Battlesphere is exactly where I a want to be at for 7 mana, and Dooooom Engine is just cool.Probably worth a try. Really crappy cards are often playable because they're artifacts
On that topic, how do we feel about these
I like the new anthem a lot as well:
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
What do you think of obelisk of Urd compared with Coat of Arms?
Depends on how crazy a board state you'll allow. Coat of Arms can be a double-edged sword due to incidental wizards and humans spread across the battlefield. The extreme scenario is hilarious to behold and a headache to keep track of. I would make the call based on whether that scenario will happen and how many of your players could navigate that, with or without paper. Or run it for the sadis- uh, stories, then take it out if people hate it.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I used to agree, but not anymore. Battlesphere feels like a legitimate reward for achieving 7 manas, while Tinker still feels like cheating