Sets [ORI] Magic Origins Spoilers

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Why are you guys still arguing? Is there any doubt about which of these two colors is actually in the market for a hard to block "3/1"? Or are you just arguing because someone is wrong on the internet? You are going around in circles guys, and frankly the discussion is missing the entire point.

Anyone interested in a noninteractive, color intensive, aggressive three-drop in blue? No?
Anyone interested in an interactive, splashable, aggressive three-drop in red? Maybe?
Eh, kind of interesting to see people not let a point go in here.

To argue against FSR, not blocking acolyte will make it a) grow and consequently b) harder to block in the future. FSR's argument is that of a punisher mechanic: if you give your opponent the choice, they get to choose the one that's better for them.

I don't know why, but it's reminding me of this card, which I actually run sometimes:
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Other point: if Acolyte is blocked, the damage triggers before combat damage is assigned and you can finish the blocker off with burn damage, making the opponent hesitant to block even with say, a Baneslayer. This introduces some bluffing / reading, which isn't all that prominent in a typical cube environment.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
The card is nothing but a beater, so there isn't any other way to judge it. It has no ability to do anything other then attack or block. It has two triggers, one makes it harder to block profitable and thus more likely to do damage. The other makes it do more damage after if it does damage. Its no different from Latch Seeker, whose only text makes it impossible to block, thus more likely to do damage. These cards literally don't do anything else. If you get through once with Acolyte, it blocks some things better and doesn't die to a few removal cards, but that's pretty narrow. Other then that they are completely identical in function.
 
Why are you guys still arguing? Is there any doubt about which of these two colors is actually in the market for a hard to block "3/1"? Or are you just arguing because someone is wrong on the internet? You are going around in circles guys, and frankly the discussion is missing the entire point.

Anyone interested in a noninteractive, color intensive, aggressive three-drop in blue? No?
Anyone interested in an interactive, splashable, aggressive three-drop in red? Maybe?


Yeah, basically this. I've been reading the back-and-forth and I don't see why it still went on. You want this sort of aggressive card in red based aggro, you don't care for it as much in blue. Latch Seeker is 1UU and blue aggro isn't a common theme unless you're forcing it. I'm not in the market for 3/1's for beatdowns in a blue based deck, but I am in many red based deck with plentiful burn and legit early pressure. Any way I can force through damage is a plus when I'm trying to kill my opponent ASAP. A dude that continues to apply pressure, discourages chump blocks, and opens up more interesting interactions is far superior for me. Also 2R is definitely easier than 1UU.
 
I won both prereleases that I attended, playing RG in the first and RB in the second. The card that impressed me most this weekend was Chandra's Ignition. If you're playing midrange that card is ludicrous. During one game my opponent had an army, so I sacked 3 creatures to Nantuko Husk, played ignition, and then my nantuko casually strolled across the vacant battlefield for a total of 16 damage to my opponent.

Could be another good candidate for the RG haste fatties archetype.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, I agree - without having played or even seen the card, I'm actually pretty excited about Chandra's Ignition. It's secretly the second Wildfire that no one knew we wanted. It's a wrath effect that requires a board presence, but should ensure that you're left with the one creature standing, and the bonus damage to the opponent - or a planeswalker! - is no small potatoes. In cube, it's probably strictly a Gruul card, but what a Gruul card at that.
 
I see where you are all coming from on this, and I think you're just talking about two different things. One is which card is more likely to help you win the game, and the other is which card is conducive to a fun game (for both players) and by extension is better for your cube. For the moment, let's leave out the fact that if your cube has a few lure effects, acolyte's ability can become a one-sided pyroclasm, since I think most cubes are running 0 lure effects.

Imagine the case where the acolyte was the same except you switched it's ashmouth hound ability for "can't be blocked". From the point of view of trying to win, it's ability is obviously worse than "can't be blocked" because your opponent can always just not block (in which case it's ability is identical to the ability "can't be blocked"). If they block when they were better off not blocking, that just means your opponent misplayed. At against an opponent who plays correctly, the fact that it could affect the board is meaningless from the point of view of trying to win because your opponent can just not let that happen ever by not blocking. And if they are playing correctly (i.e. making the choice that makes it more likely for them to win) and let it affect the board, since magic is a zero-sum game, that means you would have been better off if it could just get through. So from the point of view of winning against an opponent who always makes the correct plays, I think if you had to choose between acolyte as is and an acolyte with "can't be blocked", the second is clearly always be better.

Even in comparison with actual latch seeker which lacks the human creature type and renowned ability, in terms of winning I think the question is, would an unblockable red latch seeker be worth running in your cube? I don't think the renowned ability and human creature type are enough on their own to make acolyte the better card as far as winning goes if it was blue. But I could see that maybe being wrong. Human synergy can be nice, and so can the extra damage and ability to sometimes trade with a slightly larger creature when blocking (or being able to sometimes stonewall a 1/1 instead of trade with it).

From the point of view of leading to interesting games though (which is totally orthogonal to what cards are better for wining) I get why people really like acolyte. It gives your opponents more outs by letting them not die where in some cases they would die to a "can't be blocked" version of it, but it still makes them pay a penalty sometimes. It also makes certain cards better blockers than normal (super high toughness dudes) and other worse (1/1 death touchers or x/2 first strikers), so it makes sideboarding more interactive and not just the first game. So the fact that acolyte's ability is worse than "can't be blocked" actually makes it more fun even if your opponent is always blocking it correctly because its ability is more interactive (assuming interactive = fun). It's more interesting to play with and against than latch seeker, even if the player playing it would have been more likely to win if acolyte had "can't be blocked".

Of course, if a "can't be blocked" acolyte would be only borderline playable in your cube, than the actual acolyte is total jank in your cube. But I think in a lot of non power max cubes a "can't be blocked" acolyte would make the cut power level wise.

Does what I said make sense to both sides?

edit: I know I'm largely just reiterating here; I'm just trying to split up the points of the two arguments.
 
The Acolyte was really solid for me in my prerelease deck, but more importantly i'm not looking at it as a purely aggressive card but rather a threat that sometimes protects itself, which is squarely in line with my vision for red. I wrote a prerelease puff piece that talks a little about Tragic Arrogance and it's in my cube thread, since i didn't want to jump over this discussion until people had a chance for closing thoughts.
 
Tragic Arrogance does seem really interesting. Such an aptly named card, too.

I'm really liking it, actually. It's worth noting for the folks at home that costing five mana instead of four doesn't really matter, getting to keep a planeswalker is nice and not ruinous across the table, but the caster choosing survivors for both players opens up some different lines of play. The worst of those lines is more unsettling than the worst Cataclysm line and less fun to experience (in low-curve environments). Compared to Cataclysm I think not hitting lands makes it quite a different card but now that I've cast it a few times I've realized I like that card a lot too. I'll probably run both rather than one or the other, they do wonders to simplify boards and make both players fight the same fight.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm really liking it, actually. It's worth noting for the folks at home that costing five mana instead of four doesn't really matter, getting to keep a planeswalker is nice and not ruinous across the table, but the caster choosing survivors for both players opens up some different lines of play. The worst of those lines is more unsettling than the worst Cataclysm line and less fun to experience (in low-curve environments). Compared to Cataclysm I think not hitting lands makes it quite a different card but now that I've cast it a few times I've realized I like that card a lot too. I'll probably run both rather than one or the other, they do wonders to simplify boards and make both players fight the same fight.


What do you think of it in terms of your idea of a "catastrophe turn"? We never really got to delve into that idea in the combo thread.
Its kind of interesting that they even printed it.
 
What do you think of it in terms of your idea of a "catastrophe turn"? We never really got to delve into that idea in the combo thread.
Its kind of interesting that they even printed it.

Oh yeah, that's worth getting into! And definitely. Cataclysm straddles a very interesting line between Divine Reckoning and Apocalypse, which is a weird place to be. At least today, Tragic Arrogance felt like Cataclysm crossed with Plague Wind. It was interesting playing around my opponent's planeswalker; I had a Suppression Bonds on a flipped Liliana and kept that Bonds as my enchantment. My opponent's suppression bonds also stayed, but the creature it was on didn't, and I think that's the interaction Wizards wanted in a set with enchantment-based removal. It's a shame they had to print something so monstrously powerful to enable it. I'd thought that keeping lands would let the opponent rebuild faster but that turned out not to be the case - my opponent didn't know I had the card, and they'd overextend, and I'd cast it and then follow up with the creatures I'd sandbagged while they topdecked. Games two and three the warning wasn't much help, because my aggro build punished holding cards back.

38.jpg

WHY CAN'T I HOLD ALL THIS SORROW
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Yeah, I agree - without having played or even seen the card, I'm actually pretty excited about Chandra's Ignition. It's secretly the second Wildfire that no one knew we wanted. It's a wrath effect that requires a board presence, but should ensure that you're left with the one creature standing, and the bonus damage to the opponent - or a planeswalker! - is no small potatoes. In cube, it's probably strictly a Gruul card, but what a Gruul card at that.
I had initially dismissed it as some random shitty 5 mana limited only burn spell, but after seeing it in one of your lists of cards you were going to try, I reread it and I think I'm a believer. I'm not really a big fan of wildfire, but this is top end red spell I can get behind
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
The Acolyte was really solid for me in my prerelease deck, but more importantly i'm not looking at it as a purely aggressive card but rather a threat that sometimes protects itself, which is squarely in line with my vision for red. I wrote a prerelease puff piece that talks a little about Tragic Arrogance and it's in my cube thread, since i didn't want to jump over this discussion until people had a chance for closing thoughts.
Weren't we crying like two months ago about how Balancing Act and something else couldn't pull off being a second Cataclysm? I'm not sure how this card will play out in an environment where putting multiple dudes on the environment isn't a given, but it is certainly something.;
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
For argument's sake, if Acolyte were a vanilla 3/6 would it still be interesting? The most natural comparison isn't Latch Seeker, it's some other random beater that invites the 'take it or chump' dynamic in the same way.

ETA: I want Chandra's Ignition to be good; the idea of casting it on Vampire Nighthawk tickles me
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I don't think Chandra's Ignition will prove to be too good; if anything, it might turn out that it isn't good enough. Like with Wildfire, you still have to set up your board in a profitable state, which can often be easier said than done. Of course, having enough instant speed removal will make it a lot more fun and interactive - do you go for it when your opponent has three mana up? ...How about two? Or one?

Yeah, I might have overlooked Whirler Rogue too. Seems legit!
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
This set is so great. There are just so many cool cards. There are so many cards that people are getting hyped about that people are forgetting to get hyped about other cards that in any other set they would be super hyped about! How cool is that?
 
Chandra's ignition seems fine- powerful effect but a bit of setup required- an interesting reward for decks that go big IMO.

Beetleback chief has been perfectly fine as a wide strategy, whirler rogue has some advantages over it- seems great.

I'm going ham and trying all these things
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Let me know how Flameshadow Conjuring works out! I've ordered one but can't find room for it. I probably should cut another burn spell for it, since I seem to be running too much red removal anyway :)
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
But I think in a lot of non power max cubes a "can't be blocked" acolyte would make the cut power level wise.


For the sake of debate, are there any actual red 3-drop creatures people are omitting due to being too powerful?

Blue 3 drop creatures omitted:


Red 3-drop spells omitted
(not sure how much wheel counts)

My guess is that most RL 3-drop red sections look somewhat similar to their power-max equivalents, unless you're running something like that 1/1 who leaves a 5/5 artifact behind.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think Chandra's Ignition will prove to be too good; if anything, it might turn out that it isn't good enough. Like with Wildfire, you still have to set up your board in a profitable state, which can often be easier said than done. Of course, having enough instant speed removal will make it a lot more fun and interactive - do you go for it when your opponent has three mana up? ...How about two? Or one?

I think it's too situational. Cube control decks would probably just prefer to board wipe and then play their creature. Besides, it's not like you can't set up similar things with a red sweeper.

I don't see a home for it in cube.
 
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