Didn't a bunch of people here come to the conclusion that madness is best is RB, a pair you could probably play waltz in?
Sets [ORI] Magic Origins Spoilers
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I will say something nice in support of renowned. For the cards that have impactful triggers you can leverage that as pressure to generate tempo as the opp can't let those cards connect
Am I the only one on the Acolyte of the Inferno hype train? A 3/1 for 3 that gets a +1/+1 counter after it connects once sounds like a dull deal but his ability is seriously sweet. Ashmouth Hound does a LOT of work in cubes that cram their 1-drop section with 2/1s and weird value x/1s in the 2-spot, and this guy is like a jumbo hound, burning his blockers for 2. Look at your cubes. In mine, his ability means he tears through around 65.6% of my creatures - over half of my cube can, at best, chump this guy. That's insane. Each colour save green has very few creatures below a 4-drop that can do more than chump this guy for me. He demands a serious trade or a removal spell, and he doesn't even require you to hit renown to do this, either! I get that he isn't some zany card like Alesha, Who Smiles at Death who has lots of fun potential and all, but this is a real aggressive 3-drop in red, where red has always felt a bit in need imho, that has a lot of potential. The rest of the renowners bore me, but this guy looks hella rad.
At least it gives the rdw player a really mean deal right? Like it's not just turning a bunch of dudes side ways, he's bullying you into not blocking do you'll actually have to really deal with that.
Aoret
Developer
well I'll be damned, in mine he wrecks a full 71% of creatures (full disclosure: I didn't scrub the list for activated or triggered abilities that might make the previous a lie). I think this card is worth a spin. Thanks for championing it RM! And remind me to keep paying attention when somebody here says "look at your cube". You find some interesting stuff...
I played against an Acolyte of the Inferno in the prerelease and it was quite the pain to deal with. I had to trade my Managorger Hydra with it just so I wouldn't die (I did win that game). When looking at it, I just kept thinking it was equivalent to a 3/3 (with renown I guess), that died easier to burn spells, but now that I think harder it probably is a bit better than that as it is almost impossible to double block to kill the thing.
Probably the best renown creature in the set.
Cards that impressed me in my sealed pool:
Deadbridge Shaman did a lot of great work. Fearlessly swung in (when there were no 1/1's in the road) and was a scary blocker. Finally, the black cat we deserved.
Gilt-Leaf Winnower is such a great beater. It was so hard to figure out when to hold it back for removal or just run it out there. 4/3 menace is so hard to deal with in limited without losing a bunch of guys. I needed to run that guy out more instead of holding it back.
Shadows of the Past. I opened three of these things and thought I would give it a try, expecting it to be subpar. It didn't really impress me that much but it was still interesting. It helped me dig to a removal spell/chump blockers when I was getting beaten down by a Vastwood Gorger. The drain ability actually won me a game against mono red where it mitigated the life lost from his thopers while my ground force held firm. Still probably not cubable, maybe cut 1 from each of its costs, but pleasantly surprised by how much work it did.
Probably the best renown creature in the set.
Cards that impressed me in my sealed pool:
Deadbridge Shaman did a lot of great work. Fearlessly swung in (when there were no 1/1's in the road) and was a scary blocker. Finally, the black cat we deserved.
Gilt-Leaf Winnower is such a great beater. It was so hard to figure out when to hold it back for removal or just run it out there. 4/3 menace is so hard to deal with in limited without losing a bunch of guys. I needed to run that guy out more instead of holding it back.
Shadows of the Past. I opened three of these things and thought I would give it a try, expecting it to be subpar. It didn't really impress me that much but it was still interesting. It helped me dig to a removal spell/chump blockers when I was getting beaten down by a Vastwood Gorger. The drain ability actually won me a game against mono red where it mitigated the life lost from his thopers while my ground force held firm. Still probably not cubable, maybe cut 1 from each of its costs, but pleasantly surprised by how much work it did.
I too believe in the Inferno now, Acolyte is the real deal. Super Ashmouth Hound is pretty awesome.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
One toughness is a big liability against removal. Having your three drop die without compensation to darkblast sucks. And it gets chumped all day if the situation calls for it. Its not the worst 3 drop or anything, but 3/1 unblockable creatures for 3 aren't generating hype, so this guy really needs something better then "can get a +1/+1" to make up for the fact he is completely blockable.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think its more that he's either a mini-abyss or he hits you a few times and wins the game.
The way the card is designed, it does a really good job of leveraging pressure: you can't afford to let it hit you many times (considering you are playing against a red deck), and the effort to prevent it from hitting you either generates tempo, card advantage, or both for the red deck. Considering that RDW usually sucks at doing anything other than pushing a narrow assertive gameplan, this seems like a welcome addition.
The way the card is designed, it does a really good job of leveraging pressure: you can't afford to let it hit you many times (considering you are playing against a red deck), and the effort to prevent it from hitting you either generates tempo, card advantage, or both for the red deck. Considering that RDW usually sucks at doing anything other than pushing a narrow assertive gameplan, this seems like a welcome addition.
- Blue isn't Red and those sorts of comparisons aren't useful if you want each colour to do its own thang
- More specifically: Red aggro wants to hammer hard on its way to a big 4-drop or 5-drop and this helps that plan
- Making clean, easy trades hard =/= unblockability, which demands a specific kind of removal or you lose (aka pretty dull); this also gets bigger on its own, a feat that cannot be claimed by the 1UU Latch Seeker. As I like a lot of interactivity in my cube, this seems like a slam-dunk in forcing your opponent to play critically to remove him with minimal hassle.
- A 3-drop that specifically dies to pings is no big deal if your cube isn't cluttered with pingers. If you have a lot of -1/-1 at CMC 1 or a lot of 1-damage shenanigans/pingers, then this guy's value goes down. I don't look at custom cubes so I don't know how yours is like on this front, but as I suggested in my original post: look at your cube. If this guy dies to a bunch of 1-mana stuff that a 3-drop normally doesn't, then pass on him.
- Speaking for my own environment, off the top of my head, this guy dies to Tragic Slip without any work (and I will be very mad if I have to waste Slip on a 3-drop), and Arc Trail, for the dreaded 2-for-1. That said, not a lot else is removing him for 1-2 in my cube that wouldn't otherwise remove any other-sized creature, and I personally have had no issue running decks that play 3-drops that die to removal in my very removal-friendly cube. Since he runs over 62.6% of my cube's creatures and he only dies extra-easily to like 2 things in my cube that other 3-drops wouldn't die to (before becoming renowned, of course), I'm gonna go ahead and consider that a good deal in my books and a very cubeable 3-drop since most of red's 3-drops aren't very impressive. YMMV
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I don't want to play a card that is an arguably worse version of a card in another color that I'm not even playing because it isn't very interesting or powerful. Doing your own thing is not doing something another color does, but worse. Cards definitely should be compared to cards in other colors so that we can see how they play differently. This card needs to diverge further from something like Latch Seeker for it to be a slam-dunk. Desecration Demon, for example does a very similar mini-game, but in a much more interesting way that is both interactive and rewarding. The reward for them not dealing with your three drop in this case is you get a four power creature, which is, again, ok, but not really exciting me.
That's why I'm not on the Acolyte Hype Train.
If Latch Seeker is above the curve in your list and 4 power 3 mana creatures are something worth getting excited about, then I can see the card being super interesting.
I do have a "travel cube" that emulates my cube without the land drafts, crosstribal errata, multipicks and custom cards.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/26091
That's why I'm not on the Acolyte Hype Train.
If Latch Seeker is above the curve in your list and 4 power 3 mana creatures are something worth getting excited about, then I can see the card being super interesting.
I do have a "travel cube" that emulates my cube without the land drafts, crosstribal errata, multipicks and custom cards.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/26091
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
He was maybe not as clear as he could have been in making his point, but I think he's correct: they are just two different cards. Latch seeker represents actual pressure, while acolyte of the inferno represents perceived pressure.
The impact from being hit by latch seeker is negligable, while the impact from being hit by acolyte is huge. I can warp the game around acolyte's presence, which I could never do with latch seeker.
The impact from being hit by latch seeker is negligable, while the impact from being hit by acolyte is huge. I can warp the game around acolyte's presence, which I could never do with latch seeker.
Yet you run poisonous jank like Goblin Matron in your Travel Cube. Why not run Demonic Tutor? Way more flexible, not as poisonous. If you don't agree with a colour doing something another colour does, but worse, then I heartily support the switch. IMHO the 1/1 body seems pretty irrelevant, unless a 1/1 for 3 is something worth getting excited about in your environment. I'd watch out for Darkblast, though: you could be in for quite a beating against a player running that particular piece of removal.
Agreed. So, let's see how they play differently.
Latch Seeker: 3/1 for 3, so that's fine. Double-cc cost; hmm. Unblockable beatstick... but in a nonaggressive colour. Unblockable, so it isn't very interactive and demands removal.
Verdict: Pass. I'd rather run something that supports the colour more effectively.
Acolyte of the Inferno: 3/1 for 3, so that's fine. Easier to splash due to the single R cost. Hard to block, but not unblockable, so it adds some board complexity and requires thought to handle, without being a frustrating, unstoppable beatstick on the 3-drop spot. Is in a very aggressive colour, so it has high odds of being played to some effect. Can turn into a 4/2 if it connects just once.
Verdict: Totally cubeable.
Black 4-drop =/= Red 3-drop, at least not in my cube, which seems significantly more aggressive-looking than your Travel Cube. Desecration Demon is also a drastically more serious threat with a minigame. Personally, I like that, but I don't consider Acolyte to actually provide a "minigame", unless you find "blocking appropriately" to be a minigame..?
Your 3-drop spot for red is Alesha, Scrabblemaster, Prophetic Flamespeaker, tutor, crappy tutor, and pinger. I fail to see how Acolyte could not easily slide into your travel cube, aside from its lack of interaction with your pushed goblin tribal theme. A quick numbers-crunch: ignoring special abilities, Acolyte eats around 82% of your cube's creatures. That's a lot. To me, that seems like a fine deal, as a 3-drop; he demands removal or he's going to cause all kinds of stress for your opponent. If you want more out of a 3-drop, I don't know what more that is.
Anyway, that's all I have to really say on the matter, because frankly, this isn't worth a lot of argument to me; he's undeniably cube-worthy for most of the cubes on Riptide, and if I want to have shouting matches over non-powermax cards, I'll go to MTGS. I agree that he isn't the coolest thing since ice cream, I'll grant you that much, sure, but I see no reason not to get excited over a cube-worthy 3-drop creature, and I'm gonna be riding that Hype Train over to tcgplayer and buying my ticket to Aggrosburg. If you don't want to run him, fine; I will. Enjoy your Goblin Matron.
I'm probably more excited about Ravaging Blaze than any other card in this set. Like in retail limited, X damage spells with upside have historically performed better in cube than in constructed formats. Despite not seeing any play in standard in its era, Devil's Play has quietly been an all star for a few years in cube control decks here, doing good work by stifling aggressive starts early and then finishing off opponents late. While it's weaker than Devil's Play in the early going, Ravaging Blaze offers similar card advantage, and in an instant-speed package, to boot - not unlike recent Modern Masters standout, Comet Storm. It can't sweep the board like its multikicker cousin, but it can always do the kill-a-beast-and-its-Garruk trick, and at a discounted rate.
Really fast cubes might not have much use for it, but I think that in most environments, Ravaging Blaze will be an excellent, underrated curve topper that furthers control decks' reactive game plans, allowing them not to commit to spending mana until absolutely necessary.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Grillo: I think you are overstating the power of the implied threat and the difference between the cards. Both cards do only do two things: attack and block. They are directly comparable.
Neither card really wants to block and both do it equally well (before renown), so barring the corner case where renown is active AND blocking with a 4/2 is significantly better then blocking with a 3/1, the only real functional difference of the two cards in play is what is worth more: being unable to be blocked or getting a reward for not being blocked. Its not cut and dry which one is better as it is situational, but I'm fairly confident unblockable is better which is only fair because its a CC1 as opposed to C2 card.
In almost any game where the acolyte's presence is able to warp things, the Latch Seeker will have already killed your opponent.
Obviously power level isn't the only reason to discuss a card and it has more play then Latch Seeker, but it is just too functionally similar for it to be very exciting.
That said, I did order one anyway because +1/+1 counter synergy is awesome, I just really doubt its going find a spot.
Neither card really wants to block and both do it equally well (before renown), so barring the corner case where renown is active AND blocking with a 4/2 is significantly better then blocking with a 3/1, the only real functional difference of the two cards in play is what is worth more: being unable to be blocked or getting a reward for not being blocked. Its not cut and dry which one is better as it is situational, but I'm fairly confident unblockable is better which is only fair because its a CC1 as opposed to C2 card.
In almost any game where the acolyte's presence is able to warp things, the Latch Seeker will have already killed your opponent.
Obviously power level isn't the only reason to discuss a card and it has more play then Latch Seeker, but it is just too functionally similar for it to be very exciting.
That said, I did order one anyway because +1/+1 counter synergy is awesome, I just really doubt its going find a spot.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
RavebornMuse:
Do you actually think the reason I don't run demonic tutor is because I don't think it is "very interesting or powerful"?
Do you think I believe that red three drops and black four drops should have comparable effects?
Do you think their is no difference between a card being good in a cube and good for a cube?
I just don't think the card is very good for (or in) cube! Sorry! Fortunately you don't need my approval to like a card! Seven people like your post! If you don't want a detailed discussion on a card with me, you probably shouldn't post a detailed, bulleted, point-by-point response specifically addressing my post, because that makes it look like you do.
Do you actually think the reason I don't run demonic tutor is because I don't think it is "very interesting or powerful"?
Do you think I believe that red three drops and black four drops should have comparable effects?
Do you think their is no difference between a card being good in a cube and good for a cube?
I just don't think the card is very good for (or in) cube! Sorry! Fortunately you don't need my approval to like a card! Seven people like your post! If you don't want a detailed discussion on a card with me, you probably shouldn't post a detailed, bulleted, point-by-point response specifically addressing my post, because that makes it look like you do.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The power of the implied threat is that it effectively wins the game if it connects twice in the deck it goes into. This forces the opponent to make all sort of weird decisions in terms of how they play their game, which the aggro player can exploit. All latchseeker does is race: it can never generate either tempo or card advantage.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm having a really hard time understanding where you are coming from with this comparison. I think it only makes sense if you assume that the only way to play aggro is to race with it. One of the best features of acolyte of the inferno is that as long as its on board, it limits what sort of attacks an opposing deck can make on you. Presuming that we are giving our aggro decks any sort of card advantage or tempo generating tools (and I know not everyone does), this gives the aggro deck a disproportionately impactful board presence that it can leverage to win a game they would be losing otherwise. And thats the real value of the card: the disproportionate board presence it creates.
Latch seeker in a perfect example of the exact type of aggro card and aggro deck that I hate: its just an idiot that you race with. There is no strategy of holding it back to build an advantageous positon, or use the threat of it hitting to force an opponent to hemorrhage tempo or card advantage as part of a strategy to craft a win in the mid or late game. There is no strategy involved with it at all; the card just plays itself in the most boring way imaginable.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I fail to see how Latch Seeker is an apt comparison to Acolyte of the Inferno. They are only ever competing for the same spot in an 
tempo/aggro deck. Latch Seeker is closer to Wind Drake as a blue three-drop with evasion than it is to AotI. Because blue and red offer such wildly different gameplay, and thus are interested in very different cards, our experiences with Latch Seeker will mean very little when trying to evaluate whether AotI is a good fit for our cubes. Blue, for example, generally sucks at pressuring an opponent, and thus is ill-equipped to use Latch Seeker optimally. Red, on the other hand, is probably the best of all colors at pressuring an opponent's life total, and is thus way better served by an evasive 3-power three-drop.
tempo/aggro deck. Latch Seeker is closer to Wind Drake as a blue three-drop with evasion than it is to AotI. Because blue and red offer such wildly different gameplay, and thus are interested in very different cards, our experiences with Latch Seeker will mean very little when trying to evaluate whether AotI is a good fit for our cubes. Blue, for example, generally sucks at pressuring an opponent, and thus is ill-equipped to use Latch Seeker optimally. Red, on the other hand, is probably the best of all colors at pressuring an opponent's life total, and is thus way better served by an evasive 3-power three-drop.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
It doesn't force anyone to make weird decisions. If they have to block, they block and doing so might give them the time to win the game. With Latch Seeker, if they have to block, they lose the game, because they can't block.
Yes, Latch Seeker is an idiot, isn't interesting and isn't really any good either. The problem is, the only thing differentiating it from Acolyte of the Inferno is that in exchange for being able to block it (and sometimes even profitably block it, its not a 3/1 firststrike/death touch or anything!), you get a +1/+1 counter the first time you hit a player with it. I feel that the reward is too insignificant for the drastically increased counterplayer, leaving it basically a worse latch seeker. I mean, sure, we can argue the value of blocking as a 4/2, +1/+1 counter synergy, human synergy, easier casting cost and different color position it better so that in practice its a reasonable enough card, but my issue is that at the end of the day its still has the same issues that leave to leave Latch Seeker in the binder. As I said, when adding that much counterplay to a card, you need an interesting reward, which works for Desecration Demon, but not so much for this dude.
I'm kinda with FSR; though Acolyte of the Inferno is a pretty interesting red three drop with a novel ability, most cube three drops these days need to do more than just attack or block. With a few notable exceptions - guys that get genuinely huge, can both attack and block well, or have multiple sweet keywords - I suspect that most of us aren't running too many other guys at three mana whose only job it is to get into the red zone. Granted, Acolyte might be one of the better candidates to fill out an application, but you just might not have any job openings available for a straight beatstick.
In any case, can we stop arguing about this stupid 3/1 for 3, all these posts are getting on my nerves
In any case, can we stop arguing about this stupid 3/1 for 3, all these posts are getting on my nerves
I played a 2hg prerelease tournament today, ended going 2-2 and pulling a couple of cards I might think about running in cube, so all in all a really nice day. A funny thing about the makeshift meta was that everyone, more or less, ran one small weenie deck (usually red or white based) and a GB rock deck. It was the mirror more or less for four games!