General Print this Wizards! (So I can put it in my cube)

[Onderzeeboot]

Remember the custom fetch I posted a while ago? The one that searched for, in case of Seaside Campfire, an Island or a Mountain, and put it onto the battlefield tapped unless your searched for a basic land? Turns out I mainly searched for a basic land, because entering the battlefield untapped is so important. Despite this, fixing still felt adequate, so I tweaked the fetches.



Now that it only searches for basic lands, I think I can get away with an extra rider. Index effects have traditionally been pretty bad, but I think it's really nice synergy with the shuffling effect, and it should make for a bit of interesting sequencing.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I do love the idea of pre scry scry with an effect that shuffles your library

 

[psly4mne]

It's basically scry 2 at the cost of maybe having the land produce colorless for a turn or two (assuming it was supposed to shuffle your library after searching it). That's so much better than the Temples it's silly.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's basically scry 2 at the cost of maybe having the land produce colorless for a turn or two (assuming it was supposed to shuffle your library after searching it). That's so much better than the Temples it's silly.

See, that's why I put these ideas out here! Thanks How would a simple "look at the top two cards of your library" be? So you can't rearrange, but you know if you want to shuffle or not. And yes, I accidentally left out the shuffling part.

Also, how annoying would this be?

Warding Stone
Artifact
As long as Warding Stone is untapped, attacking creatures get -1/-0.
: Add to your mana pool.

 

[safra]

Look at the top one, don't do anything is already more than Good Enough for an untapped fetchland

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Look at the top one, don't do anything is already more than Good Enough for an untapped fetchland

Maybe you're right. It only gets basics though.

 

[safra]

It's too good. You can be okay with that but the card is incredibly good even without any indexing at all.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's too good. You can be okay with that but the card is incredibly good even without any indexing at all.

Hmm... It could be that I am completely misevaluating how good this ability is. The scrylands were notoriously undervalued at first as well, it took actual playing with them to realize how good they were. So, if I change it to only looking at the top card, that's basically still scry 1, right? Because you can shuffle the card away immediately or wait with your shuffle for a turn. In that case this is kinda an untapped scryland, except that it doesn't fix both of your colors as nicely as the scryland would. Looking at only the top card is also a bit cleaner. It's easier to pick up only the top card from your library, and people won't make the mistake of rearranging the top two cards ever if they can't pick up two cards two begin with, so there's that as well.

Okay, I think I'm okay with going down to look only at the top card.

 

[sigh]

Hmm... It could be that I am completely misevaluating how good this ability is. The scrylands were notoriously undervalued at first as well, it took actual playing with them to realize how good they were. So, if I change it to only looking at the top card, that's basically still scry 1, right? Because you can shuffle the card away immediately or wait with your shuffle for a turn. In that case this is kinda an untapped scryland, except that it doesn't fix both of your colors as nicely as the scryland would. Looking at only the top card is also a bit cleaner. It's easier to pick up only the top card from your library, and people won't make the mistake of rearranging the top two cards ever if they can't pick up two cards two begin with, so there's that as well.

Okay, I think I'm okay with going down to look only at the top card.

I think this is an excellent idea. Looking at the top two opens up so many lines of play on a land with built in shuffling, it's like each of these is a mini-ponder.

You could also just make costless panoramas? or have you given up entirely on the three color stuff and are focusing on pairs?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

You could also just make costless panoramas? or have you given up entirely on the three color stuff and are focusing on pairs?

I considered this, but after I introduced colorless mana to my cube, I dialed back the focus on three colors a bit. There's now two true three-color cards in each shard left, and picking one already rewards you with a corresponding fixing land. These are all strong enough cards that they're pulling you into three colors (whether full or a splash) still, and combining strong two-color cards might also see you wind up in three colors, but I think the mana base focusing on the color pairs works out just fine. Less five color good stuff as well that way, I hope. Plus, this way I get to make the land have a tiny bit more impact, which is fun.

 

[Meltyman]

I think that land is really sweet.
It's pretty sure wotc would never make a land that powerful, but that isn't to say your cube shouldn't have it.
The land you fetch probably should ETB tapped, so it wouldn't be just an upgrade to a fetch land (yeah can't get duals, but still).

I respect flashier designs than just making cards that has prowess in 10 different bodies.
Go nuts, i like it!

 

[ColonelSanders]

See, that's why I put these ideas out here! Thanks How would a simple "look at the top two cards of your library" be? So you can't rearrange, but you know if you want to shuffle or not. And yes, I accidentally left out the shuffling part.

Also, how annoying would this be?

Warding Stone
Artifact
As long as Warding Stone is untapped, attacking creatures get -1/-0.
: Add to your mana pool.

My gut reaction says that if I was playing an aggro deck, I would be very sad to see this come into play on my opponents side of the field, especially if they had managed to play a defensive 2 drop the turn before. That being said, given a high enough power level, it might still be ok. I've never really tested damping pulse type effects so I don't know how good they are when your creatures have relevant abilities (as opposed to the aggro fodder wizards puts in draft formats)


As for the land, here's an example of the BW land from each of the cycles I run:

Spoiler

So a bit of a philosophical point from making a lot of custom lands:

Even though the lands are higher power than what wizards could print, I don't think it has a huge impact on format balance because every color has access to them. Instead of worrying too much about raw power, the most important considerations with your lands are how much they favor fast/slow decks, and the opportunity cost of 3+ color fixing. Admittedly, my cube is always sealed, and I acknowledge that stronger lands will influence draft orders. However, unless you make fixing for midrange/control too painless, it shouldn't really effect the ratio of 2:3+ color decks in your format. In my case, having the fetches cost 2 life makes players hesitant to shove too many into their 3+ color decks, even when the lands have tons of upsides. 5 color decks do happen, but they live in fear of aggro decks when their effective starting life totals are around 15 in a format with a 4 mana lava axe. Anyhow, this is all anecdotal, so your results may vary.

 

[psly4mne]

ColonelSanders, Church of Deceit is broken as printed. Targets are chosen before costs are paid, so the Church itself can be the target permanent you control, and the ability will still resolve. At a minimum, it should target nonland permanents. It's still really strong with any permanent you can sacrifice for value.

 

[ColonelSanders]

ColonelSanders, Church of Deceit is broken as printed. Targets are chosen before costs are paid, so the Church itself can be the target permanent you control, and the ability will still resolve. At a minimum, it should target nonland permanents. It's still really strong with any permanent you can sacrifice for value.

The first part is something I just fixed in MSE and hadn't been an issue because the card was played as intended. As for the second part, I was pointing out that from my experience, you can have very strong effects attached to lands without breaking a format. The shocklands I posted are better examples of that statement, but Church hasn't been problematic since I put its cycle in a few months ago. That's not to say you can just put whatever you want on a land. Filtering like Onderzeeboot was considering is strong but fits into any archetype. Spell like effects like Church require a little more consideration of the format. But my cube is very aggressive, so a 5 mana 2 for 1 in the opponent's favor isn't as good as you might expect.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Most of my fixing is rather aggro oriented. Two fetchlands, two Ravnica duals, two fetchable painlands, and the manlands (all exclusively in , , , and ).

 

[sigh]

"any power level is ok because they are part of a cycle" only goes so far. The titans are all extremely high powered, and every color can have access to one of them! but.... that still makes games with them less healthy for most environments. Same goes for cycles of high powered lands. What if one person snaps up three of the five because they know how powerful they are and they happen to be in the right seat that night? Now they just have this huge edge built into just their land base.

Maybe the impact wouldn't be as high as with nonland spells, but the impact is definitely there. This is true even with higher-powered fixing of any kind (fetches etc) in a group with new players. The lands end up not being equally available to everyone, because some people undervalue fixing. This can create a dichotomy of deck land-bases, and if the fixers are too powerful relative to the environment, it'll just create heavy game play imbalance. Now of course, the new players can "just learn to value fixing!". While this is true, they have to stay interested in the cube, and have fun with it, until then. Having grossly mis-powered cards of any kind can only harm that in my opinion.

 

[ColonelSanders]

Maybe I should have been more concise. Onderzeeboot was asking about the power level/playability of his land. I was trying to make the point that with lands in 10 card cycles, especially when the effect fits into any archetype, the power level of a lands design can more loosely fit your cube than the power level of your finishers or removal or _________.

I agree that you can't just put any land into any cube. I was suggesting that worrying a lot about raw power level is less important than worrying about how it impacts the mana development of fast/slow decks or the mana development of 2/3+ color decks. If a player drafts a ton of lands, is it effectively free advantage in the midrange vs aggro matchup? You can tweak this relationship in without making lands abilities weaker.

As for whether experienced players have an advantage because of better fixing, that is something you have to design for, but may not be applicable to every cube. It all depends on how often new people join your playgroup.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

When designing cards, I prefer to design cards that could conceivable see print. I toned the effect down to looking at the top card only, and that seems fair enough in hindsight. I appreciate that others think looking at the top two cards, and even rearranging them, is exciting though

 

[sigh]

II was suggesting that worrying a lot about raw power level is less important than worrying about how it impacts the mana development of fast/slow decks or the mana development of 2/3+ color decks.

In this case I'd have to entirely disagree and say that the indexing is the thing to worry about over mana development. This is especially true in this cube, where all the fixing is basically already equal in terms of how it actually fixes and the pace it works at (see his post). So he has this plateau of fixing potential, and 10 of them just get this huge bonus (a bonus that could be capitalized on by prioritizing these lands, giving that person a large edge that fixing shouldn't give).

I'm glad to see that Onder has gone to peeking at the top. This still is wicked strong, imo, but more toned down than before.

 

[safra]

It's time walk on a land if you're shuffling past cards you don't want, which is really close to a good, free spell that also fixes mana. Of course the indexing is busted on a base level?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's time walk on a land if you're shuffling past cards you don't want, which is really close to a good, free spell that also fixes mana. Of course the indexing is busted on a base level?

That's a bit extreme Safra. You don't get to attack twice, you don't get to draw an extra card, etc. I mean, do you compare the scrylands with Time Walk? Because that's the power level the current design is at. Instead of putting an unwanted card to the bottom, you're sending it to an unknown spot in your deck, and the land ultimately taps for only one color. The upside is that it enters the battlefield untapped. So, yeah, it's still strong and a desirable draft card I think, but Time Walk it is not.

 

[anotak]

imo put your complex tensiony mechanics on cards that get people more excited than lands tend to

 

[vennythekid]

In a typical double-fetch, double-dual cube environment, it's arguably never incorrect to first-pick or heavily prioritize fetchlands for the way they allow you to stay open to strong multicolor options later in the draft, as well as fix with off-colour duals as you see them later on. This is the only fault I see in this style of mana base when combined with a "flat" power level cube; it's extremely common to be rewarded for drafting tons of lands early on.

With that being said, tacking a "cantrip" (even one as weak or weaker than Scry 1) onto this already extremely strong pick makes these cards better than anything else you can pick in a pack in general, assuming a close-to-flat power level. Even allowing the land to add colorless is a huge buff to the fetches already.

 

[Suicufnoc]

Has anyone tried this? how is it?

 

[anotak]

i never realized recoup is sorcery only wtf