Chris Taylor
Contributor
Admittedly power is usually what makes the effect cool for me 
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Speaking of things that care about a creature's P/T box...
I liked this in my Peasant cube, and right now I run Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, and Languish, so there's sort of a "4 is the magic butt number" thing going on. Plus, burn or recursive aggro decks can use this to blow up chump blockers while burning the opponent. And the un-kicked mode is like everyone's favorite sweet sideboard tech...
lolololololol
I liked this in my Peasant cube, and right now I run Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, and Languish, so there's sort of a "4 is the magic butt number" thing going on. Plus, burn or recursive aggro decks can use this to blow up chump blockers while burning the opponent. And the un-kicked mode is like everyone's favorite sweet sideboard tech...
lolololololol
So wow. What do you guys think of Gurmag Angler? There are guys on MTGS rating that over Kokusho, The Evening Star which I am having trouble wrapping my brain around. I love me some delve, but I'm not even sure I rate Tasigur, the Golden Fang above Kokusho (and Tasigur is definitely better than Angler). What am I missing here?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Angler is a 1 mana 5/5. The card is great.
It's a 5/5 for 1 on turn 5. Maybe a tad earlier. It's only better than that if you run a heavy graveyard theme. Which is fine if you do, but it still gets chumped all day. Tombstalker costs 1 more for evasion that in my mind is well worth it.
Tasiguar without his second ability is really not that great.
Tasiguar without his second ability is really not that great.
i actually think Gurmag Angler > Tasigur, because there's often not enough time to get value out of Tasigur's activated ability in cube
Kokusho hasn't really been good enough for most cubes in a while now
but either way it's a little silly to compare them head to head, Angler is much more of a Tarmogoyf, in that he's a very cheap ball of vanilla stats, not necessarily a top end control finisher
Kokusho hasn't really been good enough for most cubes in a while now
but either way it's a little silly to compare them head to head, Angler is much more of a Tarmogoyf, in that he's a very cheap ball of vanilla stats, not necessarily a top end control finisher
I suspect a lot of this is theorycraft. But it could also be that my list is just so far removed from contemporary cubes at this point that I can no longer meaningfully compare the two.
I've played a lot with Tasigur at this point. Making him cost 1 more for 1 more power will not make him better in my meta. And while I agree his second ability is expensive, either you can swing with him and get value or you have to use him as CA engine. If he didn't have that second ability he'd be nothing more than a vanilla beater that was conditionally very cheap to play (i.e. he would not be worth a slot in my list). Plenty of games have been lost after I played him and with him rotting in my hand because I either can't delve enough, don't want to delve all my cards, or he wouldn't impact the board enough to bother.
In particular, it's not like delving is truly a "free" thing. Any deck that is built to abuse the graveyard has a real cost associated with delving. A lot of stuff you want in your graveyard to feed other synergies so removing them closes doors. Nothing worse than delving your entire yard and getting Tasigur bounced or killed.
As far as Kokusho not being good enough... I really think guys just haven't played with it in so long they've forgotten what it does. 5/5 flyers are hard to deal with. And this one comes with a 10 point life swing when it dies. Got forbid you have anyway to recur it. While there are certainly more powerful options now and I understand guys not wanting to run it for that reason, suddenly putting it below vanilla beaters that are conditionally undercoated at common rarity makes no sense to me. Unless your meta is so stupid fast that it's impossible for decks to get to 6 mana I guess. Even then. This is nonsensical to me. Tombstalker costs one more and has flying and no one is falling over themselves to play it (or they weren't until the delve redux revolution).
I've played a lot with Tasigur at this point. Making him cost 1 more for 1 more power will not make him better in my meta. And while I agree his second ability is expensive, either you can swing with him and get value or you have to use him as CA engine. If he didn't have that second ability he'd be nothing more than a vanilla beater that was conditionally very cheap to play (i.e. he would not be worth a slot in my list). Plenty of games have been lost after I played him and with him rotting in my hand because I either can't delve enough, don't want to delve all my cards, or he wouldn't impact the board enough to bother.
In particular, it's not like delving is truly a "free" thing. Any deck that is built to abuse the graveyard has a real cost associated with delving. A lot of stuff you want in your graveyard to feed other synergies so removing them closes doors. Nothing worse than delving your entire yard and getting Tasigur bounced or killed.
As far as Kokusho not being good enough... I really think guys just haven't played with it in so long they've forgotten what it does. 5/5 flyers are hard to deal with. And this one comes with a 10 point life swing when it dies. Got forbid you have anyway to recur it. While there are certainly more powerful options now and I understand guys not wanting to run it for that reason, suddenly putting it below vanilla beaters that are conditionally undercoated at common rarity makes no sense to me. Unless your meta is so stupid fast that it's impossible for decks to get to 6 mana I guess. Even then. This is nonsensical to me. Tombstalker costs one more and has flying and no one is falling over themselves to play it (or they weren't until the delve redux revolution).
having played with and against both Angler and Tasigur, i like Angler more at this point. but i concede that my evaluation might change over time, especially if i observe Tasigur used in a control-vs-control matchup, where his ability will have time to shine. i'll admit that if they were both in the same pack, i'd probably take Tasigur because his upside is higher, but in practise players haven't reliably had enough time nor space to maximize his potential.
death triggers are tough to trigger reliably without a sac theme; they're a bit like punisher cards in that they're controlled by your opponent. that doesn't make Kokusho bad, just behind the curve when it comes to the pool of all available six drops
again, why are we comparing two drops to six drops? is Dark Confidant better than Massacre Wurm? i don't really know and i don't really care, i can run both knowing that they're not likely to fill the same role nor go in the same deck
death triggers are tough to trigger reliably without a sac theme; they're a bit like punisher cards in that they're controlled by your opponent. that doesn't make Kokusho bad, just behind the curve when it comes to the pool of all available six drops
again, why are we comparing two drops to six drops? is Dark Confidant better than Massacre Wurm? i don't really know and i don't really care, i can run both knowing that they're not likely to fill the same role nor go in the same deck
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Tasigur is great too. The problem with tombstalker is the double black. You can run angler or tasigur in control decks as a cheap finisher that lets you keep up a counterspell, you can run them in mid range decks as tempo efficent beaters that let you sequence multiple spells in a turn, and you can even run them in x/b aggro decks as mid or late game pieces because the cc is one. The one B means they are splashable, and because they get their discount from expanding resources, you don't even need a dedicated graveyard theme for them to be good.
Kokushu is a very different card and much less flexible, but I like it a lot too.
Kokushu is a very different card and much less flexible, but I like it a lot too.
Angler and Tasigur are NOT 2 drops. They are 5+ drops that can cost less than that. There is a big difference. The only way to cast either on turn 2 is something like entomb stinkweed dredge. Otherwise, they don't come down until later in the game. And you get them on the cheap which is fine, but dudes without evasion make bad finishers as a general rule. If you are a control deck and you plan to win with a generic 5/5, well I hope you are running A LOT of removal.
I agree Kokusho is a different beast and probably not a great direct comparison, but calling it a punisher card is completely misrepresenting what a punisher mechanic actually is. If you don't want to kill my 5/5 flying dragon, I'm perfectly happy to keep punching you in the face with it. You are only punishing yourself with that, I assure you. And as far as it being behind the curve, it depends on what your top end looks like. It's probably the best 6 drop in my cube, but I'm not running Titans and certainly have a lower powered list than many here.
I agree Kokusho is a different beast and probably not a great direct comparison, but calling it a punisher card is completely misrepresenting what a punisher mechanic actually is. If you don't want to kill my 5/5 flying dragon, I'm perfectly happy to keep punching you in the face with it. You are only punishing yourself with that, I assure you. And as far as it being behind the curve, it depends on what your top end looks like. It's probably the best 6 drop in my cube, but I'm not running Titans and certainly have a lower powered list than many here.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I completly understand why you would be sceptical: I was too. The best way I can describe it is that playing it feels like having a black goyf. Its the ability to produce a 5/5 body for almost nothing that is so great, and why its better than tombstalker (though I like tombstalker too).
But yeah, it plays much better than it looks, in my experience.
But yeah, it plays much better than it looks, in my experience.
Gurmag Angler may in fact be really good, but you know what? He's boring, too. The only cool thing I've ever heard someone talk about in relation to Angler is Podding him into Craterhoof Behemoth, and you know what else? I can Pod Tasigur into Foe-Razer Regent, or Myr Battlesphere, or Angel of Serenity, or whatever, and get the same feels, without playing a vanilla.
(This may seem hypocritical since I run Tarmogoyf, but at least he can change his stats.)
I strongly dislike Gurmag Angler.
P.S. Obviously this varies from group to group but in my experience with Tasigur the card draw is a big, uh, draw to playing him. It gets activated or threatened to activate in most games that he resolves without eating removal before his controller untaps.
(This may seem hypocritical since I run Tarmogoyf, but at least he can change his stats.)
I strongly dislike Gurmag Angler.
P.S. Obviously this varies from group to group but in my experience with Tasigur the card draw is a big, uh, draw to playing him. It gets activated or threatened to activate in most games that he resolves without eating removal before his controller untaps.
It comes down to tempo: getting a 4/5 body for 1-2 mana in the midgame is a great tempo play, because it's maximizing your resources (1-2 mana and some graveyard digging) for greater gains than your opponent (you're getting a 4/5 body for 1-2 mana; how much body will 1-2 mana buy your opponent, Tarmogoyfs aside?). You can thus usually cast 2-3 things in the delve-creature turn, whereas your opponent, for a similar body, is paying more mana and using most of his turn to do it.
The trick with Sassigur (which also more or less explains Angler) is to not get greedy with what you keep in your 'yard. Unless it's your only kill spell in your whole deck, delving out a Doom Blade to cast him faster is usually the correct choice, for example, because planning to activate his ability to pull multiple things out of your current 'yard is absurdly greed and inefficient use. Sometimes, cards just need to be played out, and damn whatever sounds most "efficient"; you can't spend the whole game scheming about slamming down Sassigur and pulling your whole library back into your hand, the person across the table from you is trying to kill you!
Over here, cracking a fetch early, casting a cheap spell, and having a creature hit the 'yard isn't that unusual by T3, making Tas, at the worst. 3-mana 4/5 with upside on T3. If your manabase can support it, that means next turn you untap with a 4/5 beater and can use that ability too, if you so choose (though it's usually best to use it later, the point stands). And beyond T3, he usually ends up being 1 mana in virtually any deck, which is, again, real sweet for keeping up the tempo pressure. So while, yes, he does come down later than T1/T2, his value is in letting you do more on the later turns that you might drop him on, or letting you get ahead on big bodies with a 4/5 on T3 regularly if you play him out quick.
The trick with Sassigur (which also more or less explains Angler) is to not get greedy with what you keep in your 'yard. Unless it's your only kill spell in your whole deck, delving out a Doom Blade to cast him faster is usually the correct choice, for example, because planning to activate his ability to pull multiple things out of your current 'yard is absurdly greed and inefficient use. Sometimes, cards just need to be played out, and damn whatever sounds most "efficient"; you can't spend the whole game scheming about slamming down Sassigur and pulling your whole library back into your hand, the person across the table from you is trying to kill you!
Over here, cracking a fetch early, casting a cheap spell, and having a creature hit the 'yard isn't that unusual by T3, making Tas, at the worst. 3-mana 4/5 with upside on T3. If your manabase can support it, that means next turn you untap with a 4/5 beater and can use that ability too, if you so choose (though it's usually best to use it later, the point stands). And beyond T3, he usually ends up being 1 mana in virtually any deck, which is, again, real sweet for keeping up the tempo pressure. So while, yes, he does come down later than T1/T2, his value is in letting you do more on the later turns that you might drop him on, or letting you get ahead on big bodies with a 4/5 on T3 regularly if you play him out quick.
I totally agree with the value of undercosted guys. And I also really like delve since it allows you to use "spent" cards as a resource. It's really good in cube. Tasigur has been very solid. He's not on the verge of being cut. But a more generic version of him that is 1 more mana? I'm having a hard time digesting that. But I don't run (or even like) Tarmogoyf in cube. Undercosted vanilla beat sticks are the last things I want taking up precious slots in my cube.
Just to be clear, I have no doubt Angler plays well. I see what Tasigur does from time to time simply as a beat stick. I get that side of it. I do.
On a related note... how has Hooting Mandrills been for those that are running it? I've been tempted to give that guy a try since I am not running any delve cards in green and there are several Gx decks that can make use of delve.
Just to be clear, I have no doubt Angler plays well. I see what Tasigur does from time to time simply as a beat stick. I get that side of it. I do.
On a related note... how has Hooting Mandrills been for those that are running it? I've been tempted to give that guy a try since I am not running any delve cards in green and there are several Gx decks that can make use of delve.
I actually psyched myself into slotting Hooting Mandrills into my list with my latest update... and then when it came time to actually pull the trigger, I realized that it didn't make much sense. The whole reason Gurmag Angler is making as big of a stir as he is is that black fundamentally doesn't get giant vanilla beaters without drawbacks for so cheap, whereas green does. When green has interesting options at every point on the curve, I realized that Yet Another French Vanilla Beater wasn't necessary to the colour. Whereas black can make great use of boring, undercosted bodies, green gets good deals on those kinds of things everyday.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, thats really interesting: I had the same experience with hooting mandrills. I'm really not sure why its inferior: if goyf is our point of reference for angler, wouldn't it apply even more so to mandrills?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
That makes sense, its also much worse at controlling the board. Angler can pretty much just go over the top of most creatures it encounters, while mandrils finds itself in trading situations much more often.
I also kind of think that green is just much worse at feeding velocity driven graveyard strategies. Black is a natural controlling color and wants to expand resources to control the board, while Green tends to want to build board presences. Angler provides a natural way to recoup value off of those expanded resources, and transform them into a board position of its own. Green dosen't really have that dynamic, or that need.
I also kind of think that green is just much worse at feeding velocity driven graveyard strategies. Black is a natural controlling color and wants to expand resources to control the board, while Green tends to want to build board presences. Angler provides a natural way to recoup value off of those expanded resources, and transform them into a board position of its own. Green dosen't really have that dynamic, or that need.
Breath of dirigaaz is a toal fave gave miles a foil one for the noob cube. Red is a total control Colour in pez.
Anyone know of any fatties that act like wraths aside from reaver demon. Green or black are fave but any Colour sweeper fatty is appreciated. Honestly if not sweeper I'm looking for on board card advantage like that commander 7 drop black demon that destroys a guy then give you a 2/2.
Anyone know of any fatties that act like wraths aside from reaver demon. Green or black are fave but any Colour sweeper fatty is appreciated. Honestly if not sweeper I'm looking for on board card advantage like that commander 7 drop black demon that destroys a guy then give you a 2/2.
Those are about all I know that seem potentially worthwhile, and their wrath-ness is debatable.
For card advantage on a stick,
is high on my to-try list. It's like a fair, blinkable, reanimateable Reanimate! VALUE!If you want a cool dude for control,
has always felt very underappreciated in my book, as he can be extremely powerful if you can keep him alive. Dropping him T5 to doublecast Ghastly Demise is one of my fave plays so far, but he also allows you to crank out additional value from things like Brainstorm.For wraths not on a stick that give great card advantage,
and are also pretty tasty.*taps foot waiting to be outdone by someone who will post a better wall of cards*
But it was far too good here.