Chris Taylor
Contributor
I run 0 targeted discard
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
I've been running Balance for about 8 months now and I've enjoyed it. It's definitely a busted card, but it has this going for it: Balance can completely turn the game around out of nowhere, but it rarely, if ever, outright ends the game. You get all the excitement of high-powered magic, but unlike, say, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn you don't cast it and then immediately shake hands and shuffle it back into your deck.
With regards to the power-level, by far the most broken part of the card is the mana cost. On the other hand, that's also the feature that helps you get out of seemingly impossible board states. I think the ultra low mana cost also helps fit into decks with different curves and playstyles - e.g. in UW control late game with Snapcaster Mage, or in GW Lands with World Shaper, or WR Recursion with maybe Greater Gargadon, Feldon of the Third Path, and Second Sunrise.
EDIT: now that I'm thinking about WR balance
WR Restor(ation Specialist) Balance
 | | | | | |
| |||||
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I wouldn't want to! It's a sweet card that has added a lot to games on average in my experience
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn imposes a quest with a huge reward if quest is completed. Heads will turn and high fives will be given. It also ends games. This is a very good thing because nobody wants to be on the receiving end for several agonizing turns.
Balance Creates the agonizing turns for 2 mana. (Formula: Card text value divided by mana cost)
One could argue that the mana cost is the broken part of the card. One could also argue that the card text is the broken part of the card. It’s all part of the same formula that makes the card miserable.
I would strongly advice against running Balance in your cube unless:
1. You are power maxing. And then what are you even doing here?
2. You have designed a cube centered around Balance and friends.
3. Nostalgia
Otherwise I vote ‘no’ because it delays games too much compared to how little fun the card is.
Balance Creates the agonizing turns for 2 mana. (Formula: Card text value divided by mana cost)
One could argue that the mana cost is the broken part of the card. One could also argue that the card text is the broken part of the card. It’s all part of the same formula that makes the card miserable.
I would strongly advice against running Balance in your cube unless:
1. You are power maxing. And then what are you even doing here?
2. You have designed a cube centered around Balance and friends.
3. Nostalgia
Otherwise I vote ‘no’ because it delays games too much compared to how little fun the card is.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Why is Balance inherently less fun than, say, Wrath of God?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Because Armageddon and Persecute are inherently less fun than Wrath of God. After a Wrath of God, you still get to play Magic. Losing your lands or cards in hand is way more devastating in this aspect. Of course you won't typically lose that many lands to Balance, though I do run Borderposts in my environment. Losing the cards in your hand is a real possibility with Balance, though.
Onde decided to answer for me. What he said.
Wrath destroys creatures. Balance destroys creatures on the battlefield right now but also disrupts future aspects of the game such as cards in hand and mana sources.
And it costs 2 mana. So it is double negative in that aspect It is both too efficient and too cheap. For my taste.
Wrath destroys creatures. Balance destroys creatures on the battlefield right now but also disrupts future aspects of the game such as cards in hand and mana sources.
And it costs 2 mana. So it is double negative in that aspect
It is both too efficient and too cheap. For my taste.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Also, let me add a post by famed wtwlf123 from back in 2012.
Basically, as long as you can't go ham on 1 and 3, 2 is your main goal of 'abusing' Balance, and that's almost a fair reset button (if we ignore the low mana cost). If you have faith in your format's ability to handle the build-around-it and combo issues, Balance might actually be worth testing. Still, be aware that it's a ridiculously strong effect for only 2 mana.
Or, in our own ahadabans's words (from 2017):
There are three ways that Balance can be really broken:
1. Build around it. Play an overload of cards that Balance doesn't check for. Planeswalkers, Artifacts, Enchantments, and even some effects like Suspend can help break the symmetry. If your opponent is playing creatures while you're playing support permanents, they're going to walk right into a 2-mana wrath. Maybe even better if they have an extra land out than you do.
2. Watch for timing windows. Every time you're behind in the game, Balance could be quite advantageous to cast. It's not hard to wind up behind on two of the three resources that Balance checks for. An example would be playing an artifact into a creature, and your opponent plays a creature into a Flametongue Kavu, killing your guy. You have an artifact and no creatures out, and your opponent has 2 creatures out. In this situation, your opponent is likely up a card in hand and two creatures on the board. If you're even in resources, than Balance is a smooth 3-for-1 that wiped their board and removed a card in their hand. For
3. Use it as a combo card. Play a Greater Gargadon. Sac permanents. Balance. Put out 'Gargadon. Win. Also applies with Zuran Orb to make a 2-mana 'Geddon, a Carrion Feeder or something to make a 2-mana Wrath, or a Wild Mongrel to make a 2-mana Mind Twist. Using any of these types of cards can leave both players with nothing (which is great when you're ahead), or leave you with the superior card in any situation you want.
Basically, as long as you can't go ham on 1 and 3, 2 is your main goal of 'abusing' Balance, and that's almost a fair reset button (if we ignore the low mana cost). If you have faith in your format's ability to handle the build-around-it and combo issues, Balance might actually be worth testing. Still, be aware that it's a ridiculously strong effect for only 2 mana.
Or, in our own ahadabans's words (from 2017):
Balance falls in the category of spells that make me feel bad (apologetic?) when I cast them.
I challenge all of you to test it in the next cube tournament and bring back results.
I have tons of experience with it and feel like I truly understand when to run and (see above) and when to not run it (all other cubes than the ones above). I could still be wrong though So please test away and report back.
I have tons of experience with it and feel like I truly understand when to run and (see above) and when to not run it (all other cubes than the ones above). I could still be wrong though
So please test away and report back.
Not tried it but magus of the balance is probably less hideous,as more disruptable, expensive and is signposted.
We've been running balance since our first list update and it's been awesome.
It's a busted card if you run too much artifact mana; we run zero Moxen, Talismans and Signets, only colorless stuff like Mindstone, and the rest of the ramp options are Mana Myrs or limited to green. It's also busted if you run too many enchantments (this wasn't planned it just happened to be the way we built the cube) or too many single colour walkers (we decided early on that we would run two colour walkers as we didn't want to have a superfriends archetype).
Most of the time it plays as a card that allows comebacks, or as something you had to sequence and plan a lot for so opponents see it coming from a mile away.
We do not play powermax but we like our cube swingy and loud.
It's a busted card if you run too much artifact mana; we run zero Moxen, Talismans and Signets, only colorless stuff like Mindstone, and the rest of the ramp options are Mana Myrs or limited to green. It's also busted if you run too many enchantments (this wasn't planned it just happened to be the way we built the cube) or too many single colour walkers (we decided early on that we would run two colour walkers as we didn't want to have a superfriends archetype).
Most of the time it plays as a card that allows comebacks, or as something you had to sequence and plan a lot for so opponents see it coming from a mile away.
We do not play powermax but we like our cube swingy and loud.
In regards to what Trainmaster wrote here: https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/cbs.286/page-154#post-86246
Nobody has yet to run this board wipe that only clears villain’s side of the table + threat in a deck since I included it. How do you guys feel about AA?
Nobody has yet to run this board wipe that only clears villain’s side of the table + threat in a deck since I included it. How do you guys feel about AA?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
In regards to what Trainmaster wrote here: https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/cbs.286/page-154#post-86246
Nobody has yet to run this board wipe that only clears villain’s side of the table + threat in a deck since I included it. How do you guys feel about AA?
It made 3rd place (WLW) in my last draft in an UG ramp deck. It was very good, and one of the pilot's MVC's (the first one they mentioned, in fact). He lost the second round (of three) to me, when he decked himself in the first game (I ran a bunch of wraths), won the second game, then got run over when I sided in all my aggro cards on the play in the 3rd game. I feel AA is a tremendous reward for ramp and/or reanimator decks. The best way to counter it (other than, you know, actually countering it) is to go under and aggro it out. However, it is very dominating when it does hit the table, and for that reason I have considered running Thorn Mammoth instead.
In short, Apex Altisaur is a great card that feels borderline unfair when it hits the table, but is very expensive. The main ways to answer it are racing it before it can hit the table and/or running instant answers (be it Counterspells or Murders) to kill it before it can start the fight chain.
I was wondering about some single card archetypes and was curious about
.
I experimented with Birthing Pod as a double pick (pick up the Pod and you get a second one after the draft) and it has played out well. So I'm thinking of doing the same here as it would add a lot of consistency and incentive to build around these cards.
As Foretold can be played in a few contexts such as prison (Wildfire, Balance, Braids, Cabal Minion) decks where it becomes a mana advantage engine. It can also be used in a proliferate type deck (Volt Charge, Tezzeret's Gambit, Evolution Sage) or even a straight up control deck where you have a bunch of instants and gain a mana advantage that way.
Fires of Invention is more of a control or ramp card that encourages you to find mana sinks (Raging Ravine, Duskwatch Recruiter, Skarrgan Hellkite, Knight of the Ebon Legion, ...) Some people here mentioned wanting to try it, how were the results?
These cards don't seem very parasitic, I'm just wondering if the gameplay they offer is worth a slot in the cube over a more generic card.
.I experimented with Birthing Pod as a double pick (pick up the Pod and you get a second one after the draft) and it has played out well. So I'm thinking of doing the same here as it would add a lot of consistency and incentive to build around these cards.
As Foretold can be played in a few contexts such as prison (Wildfire, Balance, Braids, Cabal Minion) decks where it becomes a mana advantage engine. It can also be used in a proliferate type deck (Volt Charge, Tezzeret's Gambit, Evolution Sage) or even a straight up control deck where you have a bunch of instants and gain a mana advantage that way.
Fires of Invention is more of a control or ramp card that encourages you to find mana sinks (Raging Ravine, Duskwatch Recruiter, Skarrgan Hellkite, Knight of the Ebon Legion, ...) Some people here mentioned wanting to try it, how were the results?
These cards don't seem very parasitic, I'm just wondering if the gameplay they offer is worth a slot in the cube over a more generic card.
I've found As Foretold to be super good. The main thing I've learned from seeing it in play a bunch is the following: at first I thought this was a synergy-based build around like you said - e.g. wildfire or prison decks. The first time I drafted it was in a Stasis deck to break symmetry. But what I've found is that as long as you can spend 3 mana to cast it and not die (non-trivial), it's good in just about any deck. A free spell every turn (and on each of your opponents turns) is just extremely impactful in your typical mana-hungry blue deck.
Also for some reason my playgroup has built up this weird meme about using As Foretold to cast Force of Will "for free". It's happened >50% of the games when As Foretold has hit the field I think!
Are you talking about the Coliseum? If so, maybe our dinosaur friend's lack of play has something to do with some of the new mechanics you've implemented. I'm not quite sure how everything in that cube works, but it looks pretty cool.In regards to what Trainmaster wrote here: https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/cbs.286/page-154#post-86246
Nobody has yet to run this board wipe that only clears villain’s side of the table + threat in a deck since I included it. How do you guys feel about AA?
Onderz might also be having more success than you because he actually supports a dinosaur deck in some capacity.
Sidenote, can we just take a minute to appreciate the Haircuts on all of the Ixalan Sauropods?
I'm not a big fan of most of the Pride Dino designs, but these guys look great! The feathered heads give them some interesting character that a "naked" sauropod wouldn't necessarily have.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
You're forgetting the best one!
Yeah I was talking about the Coliseum.
And you are right. It is a lot harder to design functioning themes in a cube like mine because I need a very, very large card pool and people don't get exactly the cards they draft but are often handed random cards instead.
By the way: I felt like I didn't properly explain the Coliseum in my last blog and I promised to write a new one. So here is a shorter, simpler version that should explain things better:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/the-coliseum.2715/
I know somebody was asking about this a while back, I just wanted to point out that Sam Black's SCG article today brought up that you can sacrifice Demonic Pact to your own Doom Foretold and this seemed like the right thread.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
He stole the idea from here, I'm telling you!
But yeah, that's one more reason I want to try this out, since I actually do run Demonic Pact in my cube! Also, fourth stax piece, after Smokestack, Braids, Cabal Minion, and Rankle, Master of Pranks. There's got to be a point where the density of this effect gets high enough for it to be legit, right?