General CBS

Okay so if we choose to focus on the cubes in the links (We can talk about your version, Onde, later.)

So everyone gets the same amount of stickers but they do not get the same ones? And there are no requirements to gain these stickers, you simply just get them when the tournament begins?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Okay so if we choose to focus on the cubes in the links (We can talk about your version, Onde, later.)

So everyone gets the same amount of stickers but they do not get the same ones? And there are no requirements to gain these stickers, you simply just get them when the tournament begins?

The whole point of the cube is that it changes every time. You don't have to do anything for that, because you want to guarantee that cards get altered by stickers. That said, there's actually three ways of obtaining stickers, if I understood correctly.
  1. At the start of each draft, everyone receives two stickers for free and gets to apply each sticker to any card in their draft pool, with two conditions. One, the sticker may stipulate the card type they go on, and two, a card can never have more than two stickers.
  2. At the end of the draft (or after each game, depending), the winner gets a name sticker with which they can rename one card in their draft pool. From then on, that card costs them 1 less to cast, and others 1 more to cast.
  3. There's several "quests" that can be completed through play, represented by sealed envelopes or boxes. Each envelope stipulates the way to unlock it, e.g. "Open this whenever a player control 13 lands at the end of their turn". Such an envelope may contain additional stickers to be handed out to the drafters, though I have no idea if this is done at random or by drafting them or something like that. Also, envelopes could contain something different entirely, like Archenemy cards, or Planes.
I wasn't planning on doing 2, at least not with the added rules of cost reduction/increase, because that only leads to people drafting the same cards/archetype each time. Having cards named by your players is a cute idea though.
 
Perfect bans. They targeted exactly the cards that were the problem.

The Play Design Lessons Learned article has me thinking about my cube and taking a hard look at things. This paragraph especially:

Three-mana planeswalkers are riskier space than we were giving them credit for, even when we were giving them a lot of credit. We've seen some that occupy fun and healthy roles (Domri, Anarch of Bolas and Gideon Blackblade spring to mind), but we've also seen several invalidating large swaths of cards. For example, Teferi, Time Raveler invalidates most instants and Oko, Thief of Crowns invalidates most permanents more expensive than himself. We'll likely continue making three-mana planeswalkers, but sparingly, carefully, and with the question "if this planeswalker is strong, what could it push out of the environment?" at the forefront of the conversation.
In particular, we were leaning too hard on planeswalkers' ability to be attacked and how much less reliable that counterplay is on three-mana planeswalkers. The further we deviate from the basic four- and five-mana planeswalker loyalty schemes that we've explored many times now, the more careful we need to be about rechecking our assumptions about how they impact the game. Beyond that, as soon as we're able, we'll be including more and more varied cards to provide avenues for planeswalker interaction outside the combat step.

To this end, I think I'm cutting Wren and Six and taking a hard look a the other 3 mana walkers in the cube. They just provide too much continual value for too little investment. I'm also going to cut any planeswalker passives that turn off options for your opponent (passives that you can take advantage of, like 3 mana Vivien, are okay... she also gets a pass for having low loyalty and not protecting herself particularly well).
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think the one that gets me is the Gang of Devils with Evoke {2}{U}
(Right next to the one with evoke {2}{R} no less)
Yeah, at first I was like: “That’s a great creature to give evoke, and that feels like the correct cost too!” And then I moused over to the next Gang of Devils and I was like: “That’s why you want to put better requirements on those stickers!” But I think this particular playgroup just laughs at the color pie going to hell. Which is, fair.
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
Hey y'all, I want to teach my colleague magic and have some interesting, hard games (he's been teaching me chess). I think this has come up before, but can anyone recommend some good decks we could print out and go head to head with?

I don't need beginner stuff, I'll figure out some other way to teach the rules.
 
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Hey y'all, I want to teach my colleague magic and have some interesting, hard games (he's been teaching me chess). I think this has come up before, but can anyone recommend some good decks we could print out and go head to head with?

I don't need beginner stuff, I'll figure out some other way to teach the rules.

I made some beginner decks about a year ago so I could teach some of my friends how to play. The idea is that each of you gets one of these simple little budget decks and then you play them against each other.

I'll share two of my favorites, but I have more if you don't like these:

U/W Fliers

Mainboard (60)
Divination
Favorable Winds
Healer's Hawk
Jace's Phantasm
Mistral Charger
Pacifism
Siren Reaver
Storm Crow
Storm Fleet Aerialist
Thunderclap Wyvern
Warden of Evos Isle
Wingmate Roc
Azorius Guildgate
10 Island
Plains

(0)


R/G Dinosaurs

Rawr (60)
Charging Monstrosaur
Drover of the Mighty
Elvish Mystic
Feed the Clan
Grazing Whiptail
Lightning Strike
Llanowar Elves
Raging Regisaur
Rampant Growth
Savage Stomp
Shamanic Revelation
Thundering Spineback
Verdant Sun's Avatar
14 Forest
Mountain

(0)
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I saw some controversy on Twitter about competitive Magic being moved from paper to Arena. I always thought of this step as inevitable for the viewing experience, but maybe others feel differently. It doesn't really affect me either way. Do we have opinions on this?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I do. It's about damn time! It makes for a much cleaner viewing experience, and it completely removes the biggest blight on competitive Magic: cheating. I think paper tournaments still, by necessity need to feed into the top tournaments, and Magic Fests are, on the whole, a good thing, I feel, but I very much like the fact that the highest profile tournaments where the best are duking it out with the best are held on Arena. Love it!
 
Cleaner viewing experience and probably better in the long run, but taking out the human element turns me off completely from tuning in to watching any competitive Magic. There's just no appeal. At least with something like EDH online you get user commentary and playful back and forth to keep you entertained, stuff tertiary to the actual game, but competitive Magic is already all business and unappealing like 80% of the time. Stripping out the human element just makes it even less appealing and I have zero desire to tune in. Arena is a cool product for many players (not me), but has zero appeal to me as a viewer.

I also have no clue when anything is happening anymore so I guess it's a moot point. I don't know which tourneys qualify a player for the Pro Tour, when the next one is happening, or what is even at stake. When it was just GPs and Pro Tours it was so easy to follow and be aware of what was happening and what the stakes were. Now? Fuck if I know. They've really fucked up their whole system for their potential viewing audience.
 
Cleaner viewing experience and probably better in the long run, but taking out the human element turns me off completely from tuning in to watching any competitive Magic. There's just no appeal. At least with something like EDH online you get user commentary and playful back and forth to keep you entertained, stuff tertiary to the actual game, but competitive Magic is already all business and unappealing like 80% of the time. Stripping out the human element just makes it even less appealing and I have zero desire to tune in. Arena is a cool product for many players (not me), but has zero appeal to me as a viewer.

I also have no clue when anything is happening anymore so I guess it's a moot point. I don't know which tourneys qualify a player for the Pro Tour, when the next one is happening, or what is even at stake. When it was just GPs and Pro Tours it was so easy to follow and be aware of what was happening and what the stakes were. Now? Fuck if I know. They've really fucked up their whole system for their potential viewing audience.

Worlds is coming up on February 2020.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
the human element

FwcpJrh.png
 
I kind of would like to have an extended conversation on something random but I have no idea what to talk about. Girls? No. Trains? Always, but I doubt that's a conversation any of you would like to have. Something cube related? I'm tired of constantly upgrading things to no avail. Actually...

I'm really tired of constantly feeling like I need to throw cards from the newest set(s) into my cube. Cube isn't an exact science, so I find it difficult to get to a perfectly balanced format, or at least one where every deck I'm trying to support is playable in some capacity. I keep finding that the things I want to do that aren't working either require a deeper support pool than I need or have space for, while the things I'm currently making work can't be scaled back. Meanwhile, Wizards of the Coast keeps making new cards that either add to an existing archetype or support something new that I want to try. So, I end up in the following cycle:

-I want to improve my cube by cutting cards that are too weak or too good.
-Since I've built my cube out of pre-existing cards, clearly old cards aren't the answer to my problems.
-Therefore, I should be constantly acquiring the latest and greatest cards.

The thing is, I don't always feel like the new cards actually make my cube more fun. I remember thinking when I first started working on my current cube that using the Mentor mechanic from Guilds of Ravnica was going to revolutionize the way my cube played. After all, mentor is a sweet mechanic. Less than a year later, I've cut some of the mentor cards I was using, and I'm almost ready to cut all of the remaining mentors except for the Goblin Rabblemaster Clone. The same thing happened with the Afterlife cards. I started using some afterlife cards from Ravnica Allegiance as a way to support an aristocrats deck. I've been cutting those cards the entire time I've had the cube, to the point where I'm down to just Tithe Taker.

Actually, my aristocrats deck as a whole was kind of a flop. It's not like I didn't put powerful pieces for that deck into the cube. I mean, I may not have had enough enough sacrifice outlets in the cube when I first implemented the deck. Right now I know I'm a bit light on sac outlets, but that was after months of the deck not really panning out. What's left is all that really ever saw any play- and I'm not even sure it's worth leaving most of that in still because the most fun parts don't really need the extra support.

Maybe this issue is just because my cube's power level might be running slightly above the point where a true decks-not-cards format. I've been cutting cards that have just been winning games without needing a whole lot of help from the rest of their deck, but I'm still left with a format where drafters are looking to build decks to make certain payoff cards good. It's like a weird fusion of the "Color pair says do X" and "Card W says do X." But this doesn't lead to un-fun games, nor does it explain why new cards hand-picked for this environment aren't putting up their intended results.

I'm also finding that I keep adding new cards to the cube and then coming back a couple months later and wondering why. For example, I added Grumgully, the Generous to the cube when he first released with Throne of Eldraine, but now I think I want to go back to the card I was previously running in his slot, Rhythm of the Wild. It's not that Grumgully, the Generous has been bad. His ability to be used with tokens is actually quite useful in red decks because of Thopter token makers like Pia and Kiran Nalaar. Rhythm of the Wild is probably a little bit worse than Grumgully, but I find myself liking it more and more every time it crosses my mind.


Usually, when I write long reflective posts like this, I feel unhappy with how my cube is built or is playing, but that's not how I feel this time. My cube is the best it's ever been, and I've sloughed off most of the inelegance that has plagued my earlier attempts at design. I am feeling a fatigue for the breakneck rate we're seeing good cube cards be released. It used to be that you'd be lucky to see 40 cube worthy cards in a year, and now it's like we're getting 40 or so per set. I think I'm experiencing a real fear of missing out on the shiny new-ness of magic. I remember intensely wanting to add a Bone Miser to my cube when Commander 2019 was released, but now I can't even remember that it exists half of the time. The same is true with Apex Altisaur. Not having these cards is not the end of the world, and honestly hasn't even really mattered.

Now, we're going back into spoiler season with a set that has a heavy graveyard theme and an enchantment theme- both things I either support or have always wanted to make work in my cube. I'm excited, but I just don't feel that sense of wonder around magic that I felt even a year ago. I'm tired.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Now, we're going back into spoiler season with a set that has a heavy graveyard theme and an enchantment theme- both things I either support or have always wanted to make work in my cube. I'm excited, but I just don't feel that sense of wonder around magic that I felt even a year ago. I'm tired.

I think product fatigue is going to hit Magic pretty soon, if it hasn't already. The amount of sets, ancillary products and just new cards was something that we haven't had to deal with before.

You think it is hard to keep up with, to update your card with the ones from the newest set? Imagine how it is for someone who hasn't updated their cube in lets say 2 years (see: Jason Waddell), how long is it going to take them to churn through the slog that was 2019 to find the cream that will fit his cube? I know this is probably just whinging, but it takes me a while to produce any sort of content as I can't just let words flow through me. I like to keep my type 4 stack up to date, as it is the only real 'cube' I have at this point, but I still haven't managed to do a set review or even look at buying any cards from the commander set this year. Let alone the playtest cards from the mystery booster.

Please Wizards, just give me 2 months where you aren't trying to drop something new. You have plenty of formats and ways to play, if I get bored and I can change to one of those instead of needing new cards to satisfy my boredom. It just makes changing formats harder if you keep changing them all the time with new cards.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think product fatigue is going to hit Magic pretty soon, if it hasn't already. The amount of sets, ancillary products and just new cards was something that we haven't had to deal with before.
To be fair, product fatigue was always a thing. Try to find the last post by previous high profile posters like ahadabans, FlowerSunRain, or Eric Chan, and you'll see that it's been months, or even years. These were all people who, at one time in their life, dedicated enough time of their life to Magic to post regularly on a niche forum. For most people, interest in Magic is something that waxes and wanes, and I don't think that's something to worry about.

Sets used to be a lot larger as well, and I don't think the amount of new cards we've been getting has changed all that much. What has changed is the amount of chaff WotC puts out. WotC has learned, maybe from cube, that a narrower power band makes for a more fun limited experience, and they have raised the average power level of commons and uncommons considerably. The consequence of this move is that there's more possible includes each set, and that does mean it takes more work to maintain a cube with each new set. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as more options also means we have more tools to really shape our cube in a personal way. That said, we should never forget that even a random pile of cards, i.e. "my first cube", is a lot of fun to draft and play with. TrainmasterGT, you have, by your own words, a fun cube that's in a good place. Play it, don't worry about updating it religiously, and try, if you can, to enjoy the fruits of your labor. The more you play with it, rather than worry about what new cards to add, the better you will realize what cards you really want to replace and what effects are "missing" from your cube.

And if all else fails, and even playing Magic starts to become less fun, Safra's advice is a good one too :)
 
I think product fatigue is going to hit Magic pretty soon, if it hasn't already. The amount of sets, ancillary products and just new cards was something that we haven't had to deal with before.

You think it is hard to keep up with, to update your card with the ones from the newest set? Imagine how it is for someone who hasn't updated their cube in lets say 2 years (see: Jason Waddell), how long is it going to take them to churn through the slog that was 2019 to find the cream that will fit his cube? I know this is probably just whinging, but it takes me a while to produce any sort of content as I can't just let words flow through me. I like to keep my type 4 stack up to date, as it is the only real 'cube' I have at this point, but I still haven't managed to do a set review or even look at buying any cards from the commander set this year. Let alone the playtest cards from the mystery booster.

Please Wizards, just give me 2 months where you aren't trying to drop something new. You have plenty of formats and ways to play, if I get bored and I can change to one of those instead of needing new cards to satisfy my boredom. It just makes changing formats harder if you keep changing them all the time with new cards.

I just decided to ignore the playtest mystery booster cards since they aren't "real" black-border magic cards. Most of them are just kinda weird anyways :/

Like you say, there's just a ton of new cards now and WOTC is constantly releasing more.

To be fair, product fatigue was always a thing. Sets used to be a lot larger as well, and I don't think the amount of new cards we've been getting has changed all that much. What has changed is the amount of chaff WotC puts out. The consequence of this move is that there's more possible includes each set, and that does mean it takes more work to maintain a cube with each new set. . TrainmasterGT, you have, by your own words, a fun cube that's in a good place. Play it, don't worry about updating it religiously, and try, if you can, to enjoy the fruits of your labor. And if all else fails, and even playing Magic starts to become less fun, Safra's advice is a good one too :)

To be fair, product fatigue was always a thing. Try to find the last post by previous high profile posters like ahadabans, FlowerSunRain, or Eric Chan, and you'll see that it's been months, or even years. These were all people who, at one time in their life, dedicated enough time of their life to Magic to post regularly on a niche forum. For most people, interest in Magic is something that waxes and wanes, and I don't think that's something to worry about.

Sets used to be a lot larger as well, and I don't think the amount of new cards we've been getting has changed all that much. What has changed is the amount of chaff WotC puts out. WotC has learned, maybe from cube, that a narrower power band makes for a more fun limited experience, and they have raised the average power level of commons and uncommons considerably. The consequence of this move is that there's more possible includes each set, and that does mean it takes more work to maintain a cube with each new set. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as more options also means we have more tools to really shape our cube in a personal way. That said, we should never forget that even a random pile of cards, i.e. "my first cube", is a lot of fun to draft and play with. TrainmasterGT, you have, by your own words, a fun cube that's in a good place. Play it, don't worry about updating it religiously, and try, if you can, to enjoy the fruits of your labor. The more you play with it, rather than worry about what new cards to add, the better you will realize what cards you really want to replace and what effects are "missing" from your cube.

And if all else fails, and even playing Magic starts to become less fun, Safra's advice is a good one too :)

But to be balanced, there's way more products with new playable cards now adays. Remember when most ancillary products were all or mostly reprints? Duel Decks, for example, never had new cards in them unless they were teasers for the upcoming set. Like you said, sets used to be mostly chaff, and now there's tons of playable cards at every rarity. Conspiracy 1 was mostly chaff save for the like 4 new cards that you could play, while Modern Horizons was basically all cards that one could reasonably cube at some power level. It's like the Bonsai tree of playable has started to grow at an exponential rate. Honestly I think the only reason I'm even thinking about this is because we've had a break from (real) new cards since September with Throne of Eldraine.

Luckily for me, we're going to have one set on a world I love and supporting themes I enjoy. I can change anything I'm currently unhappy with, and then just let the cube lie fallow for a few months while we just draft it. Everything we know about Ikoria makes the set sound like it is going to be fairly parasitic, so I could probably sit updating the cube out for that one and just wait until core 2021 comes out to make any further changes.

That'd be nice, actually.
 
I pretty much go through periods of interest and disinterest when it comes to Magic. New sets will usually get me going again and interested in approaching the game, but I'll often go weeks or months just not really thinking about it at all. Currently doing that; I've got enough other things to do to keep me occupied to where Magic isn't really my go-to form of entertainment.

The product schedule has become extremely hectic, I definitely agree with that. I remember when I'd get a handful of cube-worthy cards for inclusions each set but lately it feels like there's 12+ in any given set, big or small. Considering the fact that I don't get to physically draft my cube all that much, maybe 3-4 times a year, I end up having more changes between sets than actual playtest data. And often times more than half the cards I test out don't even stick around for the long haul. It's just an overabundance of choices at this point and it definitely can be draining.

Cube is a format of constant iteration, but if it's becoming a keeping up with the Joneses type scenario, I'd just take a break and ignore Magic for a while. Spoiler season will still be fun to see new cards, but there shouldn't really be need to try out x and y and z for fear of missing out. At that point Cube becomes less a passion project and more a hassle.
 
I remember when I'd get a handful of cube-worthy cards for inclusions each set but lately it feels like there's 12+ in any given set, big or small.
This is so true. Now, testing a new set is less "what cards do I cut to make room for the new cards" and more "what new cards that are definitely cube worthy can I skip on this time?"

-Cries in Embercleave-
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
This is so true. Now, testing a new set is less "what cards do I cut to make room for the new cards" and more "what new cards that are definitely cube worthy can I skip on this time?"

-Cries in Embercleave-

There is also the cost factor of just waiting until they rotate out of standard so you can pick them up at a reasonable cost. I've been on the hunt for a Rekindling Phoenix and Carnage Tyrant now that they are less than 50% what they were a year ago.

I guess there is some plus sides for taking a year off.
 
There is also the cost factor of just waiting until they rotate out of standard so you can pick them up at a reasonable cost. I've been on the hunt for a Rekindling Phoenix and Carnage Tyrant now that they are less than 50% what they were a year ago.

I guess there is some plus sides for taking a year off.

100 % this!!

Just brand your cube as the non-Standard cube :p

Oh and you probably have to pick up a card/year that will only gain value as months go by. Cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil, Search for Azcanta etc. etc.
 
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