General CBS

Trainmaster you are just one big troll right now. We should report you.

Let Wizards do charity and help others do charity if they want. Shut up and stop complaining when other people do good things for other people.

And if you wish to enjoy squirrels, go play with Squirrels. There are plenty of them in both black and silver Magic. This new charity set is only silver.

End of debate!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Here's my Planeswalker Tier List:
IuwdGh3.png

I feel pretty confident about most of these ratings. I based my decisions on both card power and how much I like the character. Arguably, I could have put Ugin in S tier and Chandra in A. Some of the walkers in C tier could go up or down a tier as well- however not all of them would go up.

You can just judge my tier list, or make your own here:
https://tiermaker.com/create/post-mending-planeswalkers-43566

By the way... It bothers me that S-tier is red and F-tier is green. This gradient should clearly be the other way around!

Also, Davriel is a super cool character and has a reasonably playable card. He's the black character with the most gripping storyline. Definitely does not belong in F-tier.
 
By the way... It bothers me that S-tier is red and F-tier is green. This gradient should clearly be the other way around!

Also, Davriel is a super cool character and has a reasonably playable card. He's the black character with the most gripping storyline. Definitely does not belong in F-tier.

S-tier as red and F-tier as green is just kind of the standard tier list setup. Usually, it goes from reds on top, to greens in the middle, to blues on the bottom. This particular template only used Red and Green for some reason.

Davriel could go up in the future depending on what his next card looks like.
 
Ok, assuming for a second that you are not trolling here, for someone who professes to miss the whimsy of yore in the game, you're taking this way too serious :')

I just really don't like the message this sends.

Wizards has basically been saying "limit the whimsy and keep it serious" for years now. Then they make ponies. They've been screaming at the top of their lungs "Take Us Seriously!" only to make something that is the antithesis of seriosity. It's really annoying to be told to take something seriously only to have the same people telling you to take that same thing seriously treat it with such irreverence. Especially for a corporate tie-in.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think this is perfectly acceptable. Honestly, they should do as they please. This is obviously a tongue-in-cheek tie-in, and as a charity thing, I see no reason why it should adhere to the same standards as your typical standard-legal set. WotC obviously takes their craft more serious than years ago, so why shouldn't they be allowed a break every now and then, especially when doing silver-bordered sets or tie-ins. Don't forget there's been the Transformers tie-in last year (I think; edit: nope, two years ago already), which wasn't really serious either.

f1bb8fb5-32f2-444d-85cb-de84657b21bd.jpg


Also, there's loads of examples of WotC not taking themselves serious all the time, you just have to look for them. From oldies...



To brand new cards...



I say light up and don't let it bother you. The sky isn't falling, this won't harm Magic, it'll only help a few poor souls through all of the extra donations this charity is getting :)
 
Yes but I want real squirrels, not silver bordered stuff that you can't even use online or in arena.

I get that these are silver bordered, but they're also an entire product not related to some weird hasbro convention- this is just Magic. Magic for a charity, granted, but still Magic.

Wotc's been trying to change Magic's public perception from being that weird card game that people keep confusing with Pokémon and D&D to the full-fledged cultural juggernaut that it really deserves to be. They sacrificed a lot of the humor and whimsy that made old school magic so fun to try and give the game a more serious image. Even the silver-bordered set released in this era was treated seriously, despite the fact that it was partially a joke. Unstable was basically just a set playing with design space black-border magic couldn't use with an element of humor. The plan was starting to work- there are more magic players now than ever before.

And then we get this pony product. They're associating Magic with My Little Pony, in many ways undercutting and undermining the recent serious swing. They might be silver bordered- but they're still extremely visible in a way any one card from a full set rarely is.

It's really frustrating hearing that parts of Magic that you really enjoy aren't ok for the game because they're either not serious enough or too complex, only to be slapped in the face with cards that have the words "Everypony" and "Coat, Mane, and Outfit" on them.

Imagine for a second if they had used this product slot to- say- reprint 3 Planeswalkers with new art. They would have given more to Charity and made a product that makes Magic look good. Instead, we get cards featuring characters from a line of toys for toddlers.

It's already hard enough trying to be included with non-gamers openly playing Magic these days. Did they really have to make us look like Bronies too?

As much as I enjoy paragraphs of toxic incel-grade man-dribble, its really not what I come here for. On an unrelated note, is it possible to block people on here?
 
Trainmaster you are just one big troll right now. We should report you.

Let Wizards do charity and help others do charity if they want. Shut up and stop complaining when other people do good things for other people.

And if you wish to enjoy squirrels, go play with Squirrels. There are plenty of them in both black and silver Magic. This new charity set is only silver.

End of debate!

As much as I enjoy paragraphs of toxic incel-grade man-dribble, its really not what I come here for. On an unrelated note, is it possible to block people on here?

Hey guys I'm sorry my point of view was offensive to you. My intention was never to hurt anyone. I am just extremely upset about this product existing and this is my only outlet through which I can vent my frustrations with people who actually know what the heck I'm talking about. I will be more mindful about what I am saying in the future.

For now, I'm going to take Onder's advice and:
I say light up and don't let it bother you. The sky isn't falling, this won't harm Magic, it'll only help a few poor souls through all of the extra donations this charity is getting :)
 
How do people feel about Llanowar Elves, etc? I'm sort of interested, but my OOOOLD cube had issues with Elf, early fat green thing, early fatter green thing. I'm wondering what makes the turn 1 ramp appropriate for an environment. I've not played with ramp in a long time.
 
How do people feel about Llanowar Elves, etc? I'm sort of interested, but my OOOOLD cube had issues with Elf, early fat green thing, early fatter green thing. I'm wondering what makes the turn 1 ramp appropriate for an environment. I've not played with ramp in a long time.

It really depends on the quantity of answers for big creatures (or mana dorks) in your environment. I've never had any issues with 1-mana ramp. Just make sure that your threats in green aren't so big that the average deck can't deal with them though combat. It's usually not a good idea to add Pelakka Wurm to a format when the largest creature the average deck will field is a 2/2.

Basically, as long as you have decent removal and reasonably sized creatures in relation to your green fatties, you should be fine.
 
How do people feel about Llanowar Elves, etc? I'm sort of interested, but my OOOOLD cube had issues with Elf, early fat green thing, early fatter green thing. I'm wondering what makes the turn 1 ramp appropriate for an environment. I've not played with ramp in a long time.


I was just thinking about that following yesterday's cube night on our end. We had a good time, but 2 decks had access to 1CC ramp and when deployed early the games were not really close. Granted I play multiplayer games where you can't really use a kill spell on a mana dork otherwise you end up behind on card advantage compared to your other opponents.

However, the 1CC mana dork that felt super fair was Gilded Goose. Sure it provides that extra ramp, but you have to chose your spell carefully. After that it takes time to set up again. Are there any other cards like this one, because I'd be interested!
 
I was just thinking about that following yesterday's cube night on our end. We had a good time, but 2 decks had access to 1CC ramp and when deployed early the games were not really close. Granted I play multiplayer games where you can't really use a kill spell on a mana dork otherwise you end up behind on card advantage compared to your other opponents.

However, the 1CC mana dork that felt super fair was Gilded Goose. Sure it provides that extra ramp, but you have to chose your spell carefully. After that it takes time to set up again. Are there any other cards like this one, because I'd be interested!

One thing to consider would be including more kill spells that can deal with smaller creatures efficiently without necessarily being cards that are unplayable in a multiplayer environment. For example, in red, try running a utility Shock variant like Wild Slash, a removal spell that deals damage in increments like Staggershock, or doubling up on Magma Jet and Firebolt. In black, you could double up on Fatal Push, add a utility small creature removal spell like Moment of Craving, or try adding a simple Disfigure or Vendetta effect.

Multiplayer is harder to balance since killing a mana dork can put you behind on cards- but you have the advantage of being able to prepare cards that can effectively counter small ramp strategies.
 
Gilded Goose is a really cool design when it isn't ramping into Oko. Fuck standard...

I think Firebolt is a good suggestion for bolting the bird in multiplayer, because it doesn't cost you a full card, but you've highlighted my worry that 1cc ramp unbolted is a bit much. I think it's really difficult for other colors to match green's size anyways, so letting them do it early can be so, so brutal.
 
I actually think Goose is bad design, regardless of Oko. One-drop dorks that tap for rainbow colors are too efficient. There’s a reason why WorC stopped printing Birds of Paradise in Standard.
 
Wotc's been trying to change Magic's public perception from being that weird card game that people keep confusing with Pokémon and D&D to the full-fledged cultural juggernaut that it really deserves to be. They sacrificed a lot of the humor and whimsy that made old school magic so fun to try and give the game a more serious image.

A cultural juggernaut, as Marvel, Disney, and others have proven, is bolstered by the strategic fusion of corporate universes and associations. When you connect a franchise with another, you suddenly meld the interest of millions of people, creating a product that pushes the boundaries of each franchise's target audience. This expands the realm of each franchise's influence massively. It is an age-old trick, and now Hasbro's starting to learn it (for example, by putting "Sword of Dungeons and Dragons" in the Un-set you praise so highly). Crossovers are, in fact, part of the recipe for cultural domination.

Even the silver-bordered set released in this era was treated seriously, despite the fact that it was partially a joke. Unstable was basically just a set playing with design space black-border magic couldn't use with an element of humor.

What do you mean by "treated seriously", and how does it conflict with jokes? One powerful way that people gain the respect of others is through good-natured self mockery. By making fun of yourself and laughing with the crowd, you show authenticity, confidence, and likability. The same strategies can be employed by companies. Instead of displaying insecurity in regards to Magic's ties to sillier and cheesier topics, Unstable succeeded by turning it into an enjoyable parody that conveyed self-assurance.

The plan was starting to work- there are more magic players now than ever before.

I could make up any number of explanations for this trend without any of them resting on solid evidence. However, for the fun of it, let me throw out some other, potential reasons for this:

-more widespread acceptance of 'gaming' in general, primarily due to its tie to internet culture, which, thanks to the meteoric rise of the internet, has bled into overall global culture
-population growth, or more crucially, growth in the number of people in the world with enough disposable income to spend it on cardboard
-people who grew up with magic are now in their 30s-50s, at the height of their income and purchasing power, and their nostalgia is being heavily cashed in by WOTC
-it is easier than ever to learn the game than ever with Arena, Youtube guides, etc
-as more people play the game, they recruit more friends to play, who may recruit others, and so on
-enfranchised players often are involved in Magic for a very long time. Also, most enfranchised players are under 65 (because Magic started in the 90s and primarily targeted young people), so few of them have died yet. Even without much new blood, it might be possible for the total number of players to keep going up, despite the growth slowing

It's really frustrating hearing that parts of Magic that you really enjoy aren't ok for the game because they're either not serious enough or too complex, only to be slapped in the face with cards that have the words "Everypony" and "Coat, Mane, and Outfit" on them.

I mean, yeah. "It's not okay for Magic" is code for "it's not profitable". This OC was deemed profitable, and that's why WOTC made it happen. However, complexity at high levels has been deemed unprofitable by WOTC, and as a result we have not seen Time Spiral levels since that block (though Modern Horizons certainly represents a step closer).

It's already hard enough trying to be included with non-gamers openly playing Magic these days. Did they really have to make us look like Bronies too?

Most people not involved with Magic have not followed the creation of this niche product. If you don't play with said pony cards, I think you will be fine...

Imagine for a second if they had used this product slot to- say- reprint 3 Planeswalkers with new art. They would have given more to Charity and made a product that makes Magic look good. Instead, we get cards featuring characters from a line of toys for toddlers.

Magic's mythos is being commercialized and expanded. It started with the creation of the Multiverse. Then we started to get planes that were mock-ups of pop culture settings like Ancient Greece. The envelope was further pushed by Vehicles and other technologically-associated props. Magic started to become more pluralistic and more careful about its image. We got more and more products that stretch the definition of Magic, from a digital platform structured like a phone app to this most recent crossover. At this point we have either a watered-down or an expanded definition of Magic, depending on your perspective. This, ironically, is the ultimate mark of franchise success, not the antithesis of it.
 
Thank you GalacticTraveler12. Nobody else could write that better.



I actually think Goose is bad design, regardless of Oko. One-drop dorks that tap for rainbow colors are too efficient. There’s a reason why WorC stopped printing Birds of Paradise in Standard.

I think you defeated your own statement in one short sentence. If there is a reason Wizards of the Coast stopped printing Birds of Paradise in Standard, then why have they printed Gilded Goose? If your answer is to say something like “Because Goose is not as efficient as Birds” then what is the reasoning for you thinking Goose is a bad design?
 
Personally, I think Llanowar Elves would have been even a bigger "problem" than Goose since it's repeteable. The mana fixing is good and with Elves you wouldn't be able to run UWG but I think Elves are more powerful than Goose and the white splash doesn't matter for Oko. When Llanowar Elves were in Sntandard they were also powering three-turn Nissas which wasn't exactly great gameplay.

Really, it's just the combination of ramping undercosted, repeateable effects (Planeswalkers) one turn earlier than normal (via 1-drop mana dorks) leading to problems. Magic is a very short game and can't handle this kind of gain in tempo very well.
 
I was just thinking about that following yesterday's cube night on our end. We had a good time, but 2 decks had access to 1CC ramp and when deployed early the games were not really close. Granted I play multiplayer games where you can't really use a kill spell on a mana dork otherwise you end up behind on card advantage compared to your other opponents.

However, the 1CC mana dork that felt super fair was Gilded Goose. Sure it provides that extra ramp, but you have to chose your spell carefully. After that it takes time to set up again. Are there any other cards like this one, because I'd be interested!

 
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