Goose is better than Birds in many archetypes.
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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Goose is better than Birds in many archetypes.
I didn't really want to go for round two, but here we are. Let's go over this point by point-
A shared universe isn't the same thing as doing a crossover. For example, all of the different Star Trek series take place in the same Multiverse, but they're fundamentally part of the same franchise. The same is true for Marvel superheroes. They all exist in the same world. I don't like nitpicking, but when you're first example of a crossover is just a shared universe, then that's cause for alarm. You're comparing a bunch of things that were meant to exist together with two things that certainly were not. A Big Time Rush/Yo Gabba Gabba crossover is not the same thing as Spider-Man hanging out with Tony Stark.
This isn't to say that crossovers don't work- but there has to be some conscious blending of worlds. For example, that BTR Yo Gabba Gabba crossover I previously mentioned would not have worked had they just smashed the two IPs together. The show writers took time and went out of their way to make the two mesh together. They made one show exist as a fictional production in the world of the other, so the characters could exist and interact with one another in a canon universe.
The MLP MTG cards (and Grimlock, for that matter) are not a part of the actual Multiverse- I don't even think their existence is canon in the silver-border Multiverse. They didn't get any of the blending that would have been required to make them work. Sword of D&D and Nerf War actually just fine because they represent versions of other things that in the magic world. For example, Nerf War is goblins playing with Nerf toys, while Sword of D&D is a tool for a character in a game of Magic to use, and reference the sword cycle from Mirrodin. The My Little Pony cards and Grimlock are just characters who don't fit with anything else in Magic- they're just kind of thrown in without any worldbuilding.
"Treated Seriously" means "Treated with the reverence and respect that would be given to any other card under normal circumstances." Pretty much everything you said about Unstable is correct. WOTC did an objectively good job building the set, building the world, and making something that was fun to play. Even though they used some satirical elements in the set, Unstable design implemented some elements that expanded the horizons of possible design space for Magic and pushed the limits of modern printing technology. They used space that black-border cards couldn't for rules reasons, like the Contraptions, the Triple Strike mechanic, and cards with the same name having different effects.
However, Unstable really isn't comparable to the My Little Pony cards other than in their silver border. Unstable was a real Magic set, despite the fact that it had some satirical elements. The My Little Pony cards were not treated like "real" Magic cards. There wasn't even an attempt to try and make them feel like something that would exist in even a silver-bordered Magic set- they just put a bunch of My Little Pony references on some cardboard and sold it.
There's more to this "seriousness" issue, but I'd really need to write something separate about it in order to fully explain my frustration. There's a heck of a lot more too it than the Ponies- they're just the straws that broke the camel's back.
You were entirely missing my point. Magic is getting more popular because WOTC has been doing the work to make it easier for more people to pick up the game. Pretty much every point you listed except for population growth are things Wizards actively fosters.
However, part of that has been marketing the game with a certain brand. Wotc has been trying to sell the Magic multiverse as a dark fantasy world. As an example, the trailer for War of the Spark featured:
-A guy getting tortured by a Zombie.
-A building collapsing on a family.
-A second guy being stabbed repeatedly by a bunch of Zombies.
-A woman burning to death.
WOTC put a lot of effort into making sure that even humorous elements of their worldbuilding fit the overall tone of the game. I would argue that Unstable was sold as "A satire that we gave serious love and attention to make good." As a result, we got a set that still felt the same as the rest of Magic, even though it wasn't entirely gloom and doom.
The My Little Pony cards don't match this trend at all. Everything is just sunshine and lollipops from a marketing perspective for these cards. They just don't feel tonally consistent with anything we've gotten in the last ten years from Magic. If Wizard's was going to take the game as a whole in a lighter direction, then fine, but this was still too soon.
I think the complexity argument is entirely different from this except for the "WOTC has been doing the work to make it easier for more people to pick up the game" statement I made above. The "it's not okay for Magic" thing I was trying (poorly) to refer to was the tonal stuff I talked about earlier.
So... it started 25 years ago? Pretty much nothing you just stated has been happening since day one of the game. The concept of Planeswalkers and a Multiverse was introduced in the rulebook for Limited Edition Alpha- the first Magic set. Coincidentally, the first Magic expansion, Arabian Nights, was heaviy influenced by elements of Middle-Eastern culture. Even if you don't want to consider Arabian Nights a mock-up for a pop-culture setting, we've still been getting worlds tied very closely to real-life cultures or pop-culture since at least Kamigawa... in 2004. Advanced technology has been a staple of the Multiverse since the early as well, with Urza walking around in Power Armor back in Invasion. Shortly after in Mirrodin, we saw an entire world of machines. Theros and Kaladesh were not introducing anything brand new to the game from a flavor perspective- they just innovated on tropes that already existed. Now, mechanically speaking, there was a lot that was new in those worlds- but none of the flavorful concepts they were playing with was entirely new at all. I would go as far to say that something like Theros is a logical outcome of previous Magic lore.
Trying to claim that the Magic Mythos is being expanded is just not entirely accurate, because it's been pretty much everywhere since the early days. We're just seeing a new evolution on pre-existing game tropes. That doesn't make any Pony that's out of the ordinary fit with the rest of what we already have.
This is probably the best argument I've seen one use in defense of these cards. Although the My Little Pony cards did get a fair bit of media attention when they were first announced, there's a good chance that no one's going to remember them in a few years. Unless the arena sleeves are super popular or something, this product could ultimately fade into obscurity. That doesn't justify their existence, but I think it is a rational reason as to why they may not ultimately be bad for the game as a whole. I don't think any arguments in favor of these things is actually better than "they're obscure enough to go unnoticed by anyone who doesn't follow Magic."
I don't really want to argue about this anymore. We're probably never going to reach an agreement on this; therefore, there is no reason to continue to drag out this debate. I feel bad for hurting Velrun and Tzenmoroth's feelings. I don't want to continue to fight about this.
A shared universe isn't the same thing as doing a crossover. For example, all of the different Star Trek series take place in the same Multiverse, but they're fundamentally part of the same franchise. The same is true for Marvel superheroes. They all exist in the same world. I don't like nitpicking, but when you're first example of a crossover is just a shared universe, then that's cause for alarm. You're comparing a bunch of things that were meant to exist together with two things that certainly were not. A Big Time Rush/Yo Gabba Gabba crossover is not the same thing as Spider-Man hanging out with Tony Stark.
This isn't to say that crossovers don't work- but there has to be some conscious blending of worlds. For example, that BTR Yo Gabba Gabba crossover I previously mentioned would not have worked had they just smashed the two IPs together. The show writers took time and went out of their way to make the two mesh together. They made one show exist as a fictional production in the world of the other, so the characters could exist and interact with one another in a canon universe.
The MLP MTG cards (and Grimlock, for that matter) are not a part of the actual Multiverse- I don't even think their existence is canon in the silver-border Multiverse. They didn't get any of the blending that would have been required to make them work. Sword of D&D and Nerf War actually just fine because they represent versions of other things that in the magic world. For example, Nerf War is goblins playing with Nerf toys, while Sword of D&D is a tool for a character in a game of Magic to use, and reference the sword cycle from Mirrodin. The My Little Pony cards and Grimlock are just characters who don't fit with anything else in Magic- they're just kind of thrown in without any worldbuilding.
"Treated Seriously" means "Treated with the reverence and respect that would be given to any other card under normal circumstances." Pretty much everything you said about Unstable is correct. WOTC did an objectively good job building the set, building the world, and making something that was fun to play. Even though they used some satirical elements in the set, Unstable design implemented some elements that expanded the horizons of possible design space for Magic and pushed the limits of modern printing technology. They used space that black-border cards couldn't for rules reasons, like the Contraptions, the Triple Strike mechanic, and cards with the same name having different effects.
However, Unstable really isn't comparable to the My Little Pony cards other than in their silver border. Unstable was a real Magic set, despite the fact that it had some satirical elements. The My Little Pony cards were not treated like "real" Magic cards. There wasn't even an attempt to try and make them feel like something that would exist in even a silver-bordered Magic set- they just put a bunch of My Little Pony references on some cardboard and sold it.
There's more to this "seriousness" issue, but I'd really need to write something separate about it in order to fully explain my frustration. There's a heck of a lot more too it than the Ponies- they're just the straws that broke the camel's back.
You were entirely missing my point. Magic is getting more popular because WOTC has been doing the work to make it easier for more people to pick up the game. Pretty much every point you listed except for population growth are things Wizards actively fosters.
However, part of that has been marketing the game with a certain brand. Wotc has been trying to sell the Magic multiverse as a dark fantasy world. As an example, the trailer for War of the Spark featured:
-A guy getting tortured by a Zombie.
-A building collapsing on a family.
-A second guy being stabbed repeatedly by a bunch of Zombies.
-A woman burning to death.
WOTC put a lot of effort into making sure that even humorous elements of their worldbuilding fit the overall tone of the game. I would argue that Unstable was sold as "A satire that we gave serious love and attention to make good." As a result, we got a set that still felt the same as the rest of Magic, even though it wasn't entirely gloom and doom.
The My Little Pony cards don't match this trend at all. Everything is just sunshine and lollipops from a marketing perspective for these cards. They just don't feel tonally consistent with anything we've gotten in the last ten years from Magic. If Wizard's was going to take the game as a whole in a lighter direction, then fine, but this was still too soon.
I think the complexity argument is entirely different from this except for the "WOTC has been doing the work to make it easier for more people to pick up the game" statement I made above. The "it's not okay for Magic" thing I was trying (poorly) to refer to was the tonal stuff I talked about earlier.
So... it started 25 years ago? Pretty much nothing you just stated has been happening since day one of the game. The concept of Planeswalkers and a Multiverse was introduced in the rulebook for Limited Edition Alpha- the first Magic set. Coincidentally, the first Magic expansion, Arabian Nights, was heaviy influenced by elements of Middle-Eastern culture. Even if you don't want to consider Arabian Nights a mock-up for a pop-culture setting, we've still been getting worlds tied very closely to real-life cultures or pop-culture since at least Kamigawa... in 2004. Advanced technology has been a staple of the Multiverse since the early as well, with Urza walking around in Power Armor back in Invasion. Shortly after in Mirrodin, we saw an entire world of machines. Theros and Kaladesh were not introducing anything brand new to the game from a flavor perspective- they just innovated on tropes that already existed. Now, mechanically speaking, there was a lot that was new in those worlds- but none of the flavorful concepts they were playing with was entirely new at all. I would go as far to say that something like Theros is a logical outcome of previous Magic lore.
Trying to claim that the Magic Mythos is being expanded is just not entirely accurate, because it's been pretty much everywhere since the early days. We're just seeing a new evolution on pre-existing game tropes. That doesn't make any Pony that's out of the ordinary fit with the rest of what we already have.
This is probably the best argument I've seen one use in defense of these cards. Although the My Little Pony cards did get a fair bit of media attention when they were first announced, there's a good chance that no one's going to remember them in a few years. Unless the arena sleeves are super popular or something, this product could ultimately fade into obscurity. That doesn't justify their existence, but I think it is a rational reason as to why they may not ultimately be bad for the game as a whole. I don't think any arguments in favor of these things is actually better than "they're obscure enough to go unnoticed by anyone who doesn't follow Magic."
I don't really want to argue about this anymore. We're probably never going to reach an agreement on this; therefore, there is no reason to continue to drag out this debate. I feel bad for hurting Velrun and Tzenmoroth's feelings. I don't want to continue to fight about this.
So the "Mystery Booster" has official WotC-released fake playtest cards in it, along with a bunch of random reprints or whatever. Who cares. The point I'm making is that these are technically real actual cards that actual Wizards released:
There are others but I skipped to the ones that I at least thought briefly about cubing.
There are others but I skipped to the ones that I at least thought briefly about cubing.
Some of these playtesters are weeeeird.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
This is good and I love that art
This is cool
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
http://mythicspoiler.com/newspoilers.html
Some of these designs are positively insane! Others are really cool Growth Charm is definitely a sweet modal spell that I could see myself running, but the two I'm most intrigued by are:
The Buried Ogre needs a bit of a mana adjustment, I don't like a 4 mana 6/4 and the reanimation spells in my cube already cost 4 mana, but the idea of having a pre-reanimatable medium body is sweet. That red card though? Sweet lord what a cool design!
Some of these designs are positively insane! Others are really cool Growth Charm is definitely a sweet modal spell that I could see myself running, but the two I'm most intrigued by are:
The Buried Ogre needs a bit of a mana adjustment, I don't like a 4 mana 6/4 and the reanimation spells in my cube already cost 4 mana, but the idea of having a pre-reanimatable medium body is sweet. That red card though? Sweet lord what a cool design!
Some of these playtesters are weeeeird.
Loopy Lobster could work with level counters:
Stage 1 is now base creature.
Stage 2-4 are now 1 to 3 level counters.
Whenever ~ becomes tapped, add a level counter to ~
Whenever ~ has 4 or more level counters, remove all level counters from it.
I know there are many differences (stuff about manipulating counters, stuff about its characteristics in other zones), but it could be made.
Mirrored Lotus like, “I used to be a hundred-thousand dollars... and now this??”Some of these playtesters are weeeeird.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
BuT yOuR oPpOnEnT gEtS oNe!
Oh I was mostly reacting to the art, where it looks like a thousand yard stare in the mirror.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
This is also good
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/cube_legacy
This. Is. Beautiful!
I'm pretty sure there's a troll in their group though, look at that Valakut Fireboar with persist and that Aven Augur with evoke :') Also, who thought Mulldrifter needed unearth? :') :') :')
This. Is. Beautiful!
I'm pretty sure there's a troll in their group though, look at that Valakut Fireboar with persist and that Aven Augur with evoke :') Also, who thought Mulldrifter needed unearth? :') :') :')
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articl...er-18-2019-banned-and-restricted-announcement
Holy shit! They actually pulled the trigger! :eek:
Holy shit! They actually pulled the trigger! :eek:
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I did not expect non-standard format changes.
Also regarding standard changes: I love once but it did need to go. Veil is a nice addition to the banlist as well, cryptic at 1 is too much. Really happy they didn't make the coward move and try and ban things around oko to make the card reasonable, because it isn't
Also regarding standard changes: I love once but it did need to go. Veil is a nice addition to the banlist as well, cryptic at 1 is too much. Really happy they didn't make the coward move and try and ban things around oko to make the card reasonable, because it isn't
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/cube_legacy
This. Is. Beautiful!
I'm pretty sure there's a troll in their group though, look at that Valakut Fireboar with persist and that Aven Augur with evoke :') Also, who thought Mulldrifter needed unearth? :') :') :')
That Triskelion with persist is absolutely busted now that creatures can't simultaneously have +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on them...
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It has shroud for a reason :')
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I could, but it's explained rather well in the link: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/cube_legacy
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Stickers
Players receive 2 stickers at the beginning of each session. These stickers are in sleeves with restrictions marked off (this both helps avoid allowing weird combinations as well as someone putting storm on a permanent). The winner of the draft will also receive a more complex/powerful sticker to place on a card in their pool. Stickers can only be placed outside games to avoid decisions being made in the moment.
Cube Alterations
Players are encouraged to bring a bulk card of their own that they like to each session. After the draft has finished each player is allowed to remove up to one card from their pool and replace it with their card they brought along. This should hopefully explain some of the odder choices.
Unlockable Packets
Just to really turn this into an utterly ridiculous experience, this cube has Achievements! These packets might have card, stickers or both. All of them have their requirements listed on the outside for players to know how to get them open.
Players receive 2 stickers at the beginning of each session. These stickers are in sleeves with restrictions marked off (this both helps avoid allowing weird combinations as well as someone putting storm on a permanent). The winner of the draft will also receive a more complex/powerful sticker to place on a card in their pool. Stickers can only be placed outside games to avoid decisions being made in the moment.
Cube Alterations
Players are encouraged to bring a bulk card of their own that they like to each session. After the draft has finished each player is allowed to remove up to one card from their pool and replace it with their card they brought along. This should hopefully explain some of the odder choices.
Unlockable Packets
Just to really turn this into an utterly ridiculous experience, this cube has Achievements! These packets might have card, stickers or both. All of them have their requirements listed on the outside for players to know how to get them open.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
For the lazy
I, too, love 6 mana cards that win the game on the spot
For the lazy
Busy, not lazy.
Thanks Chris.
Now what exactly are those restrictions marked off?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
They have rather few restrictions, but it's stuff like "Use this sticker only on an instant or sorcery card" for the "Rebound" sticker, and "Use this sticker only on a creature card" for the "Evoke" sticker. I'ld be quite a bit more strict to avoid stuff like a mono blue card with lifelink, which is currently in their cube. I've been musing the idea quite a lot over the past few days, and I'm thinking about cobbling together a second cube (because my first cube already gets played a ton, I know...) and change it up a bit. Don't know if I want to do the packages, but I've already figured out how I want to do the stickers part. I'm going to start each draft with 24 sticker cards face up in the middle of the table, with people getting some time to take them in, then do the normal draft, and after the draft finishes do a snake draft for the stickers. Maybe let them replace an advanced sticker they can't put on one of their cards with a random fitting evergreen keyword sticker.