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- Thread starter James Stevenson
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Anyone been testing Lovestruck Beast? It has been so good for me in Standard and seeing people play it in Pioneer as well made me start thinking about it...
I have it in the cube but I've only had one draft since it was added and I haven't seen it played yet. It is good in any Llanowar Elves deck.
For those of you who don't use targeted discard because you don't think it's fun- I just spent 20 minutes trying to defend you all on the MTG cube brainstorming discord against a bunch of spikes who seem to think black would be crippled without Thoughtseize. I don't even not run targeted discard. You're welcome?
Honestly I'm not even sure anymore...
Honestly I'm not even sure anymore...
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
If you go hunting for old posts on this forum, you'll eventually find a heated discussion between me and a few others (pro Thoughtseize) and Grillo_Parlante (anti Thoughtseize). I don't know exactly why, but for some reason the exchange turned sour at the end. Anyway, I still run targeted discard, but I have long since seen the wisdom of Grillo's words, done a full 360, and cut Thoughtseize and all other 1 mana targeted discard options from my cube. Funny how that works sometimes.
I like the idea of them, but I don't think I've seen them be anywhere near as effective as the best case scenario in my head. I've had much more success with disruption on a body type creatures like Kitesail Freebooter than something like Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress. If you've run someone out of resources and can then fire off one of them to pick off a relevant card after establishing yourself proactively, then they're awesome. The issue is that that scenario isn't the typical play pattern in many games of cube from what I've seen. I think only Thoughtseize has been consistently strong, any other forms of that have been middling at best.
Targeted discard is the lamest topdeck. For me that's reason enough not to include it.
I just think that excludeing targeted discard like thoughtseize from an environment is a perfectly reasonable design decision. Someone said "Good cards lead to good gameplay" and I was trying to illustrate that good cards aren't always good at fostering fun environments. A lot of people do not find it fun to get T1 thoughtseized. As such, if something isn't fun, then it's not leading to good gameplay, since part of good gameplay is having fun. And then everyone started telling me that thoughtseize effects are somehow vital to black's identity as a color. These people had the audacity to compare black's thoughtseize effects to Green Ramp and Red Burn. They were literally trying to make the argument that taking away the proactive permanent hand disruption that black plays is just like completely removing ramp from green- it just isn't. Targeted discard is just one of the axes on which black is able to attack the opponent. Not running Thoughtseize and Inquizition of Kozilek does not completely ruin black in the same way as not running any mana dorks would significantly damage green because black still has Hero's Downfall effects, Mesmeric Fiends, decent board wipes, reanimation, rituals, etc.
I run thoughtseize, a couple of other targeted discard spells, and Mesmeric Fiends because they're good cards for Black Aggro, which is an archetype I support in varying degrees. Yeah, T1 thoughtseize kind of sucks, but it's not the worst thing in the world to have happen especially if including it means entire new decks become more viable.
Arguably there are some issues with that discord's entire culture in my opinion from what I've seen, but I've only been on for a couple of days so I don't have a full understanding of what everyone believes yet. There seems to be a general dislike for what they call "micro archetypes" (basically what we generally refer to as archetypes) because, at least in their minds, archetypes require "wasting" a bunch of slots to make what effectively ends up being a bad midrange deck. I can see this argument, and arguably there's a little bit of truth to it. To support a specific archetype you have to spend some of your slots on cards that might be a bit narrower than is entirely ideal. Some people were actually making the argument that using "parasitic" cards to support an archetype actually stifles cube environment diversity, because it means that players will "be forced" to play the version of a deck you support instead of whatever version they wish to play using the cards in the draft. The thing is, spending 5 slots across two colors to add a Life from the Loam deck to the cube doesn't exactly tank any decks and just adds a new non-generic deck to the cube, even if it is just another flavor of midrange. Supporting an entire new deck that plays differently from any other deck seems to add diversity to a format, not remove it. I can kind of see where people are coming from with this narrowness angle, but I don't think that's a reason to throw out "micro-archetypes" or archetype design theory entirely just to make it easier to support the trifecta of Aggro, Midrange, Control.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like hearing different points of view on cube. It's cool to talk to some people who are building for maximum power who aren't going with the "1st best card" ideology of MTGS. It's kind of nice to get out into some fresh air every once in a while and have my views challenged. I would even go so far as to say that I've gotten some new ideas about density of certain types of effects and how I can construct even better so-called "micro archetypes" for my list. I don't run a particularly low power level environment, I just built a cube that forces Spike to play like a Johnny or Timmy, in Rosewater terms. I've learned more about how I think, play, and design cubes in the last 3 days than I have had basically since I started writing those little articles in The Train Station.
I've got a heck of a lot more to say about cube now after this, but it's almost Christmas, I've got people to see, places to go, and potentially even a video about cube to make. So, yeah.
I am not 100 % sure why I was quoted with the custom card Penny for Your Thoughts before that rant but you made me read it all and I am happy I did 
However there is a huge difference between getting Turn 1 (or any other turn) Thoughtseized and getting Penny for your Thoughts’ed on that same turn. The fun factor matters and it is more fair.
Felipe’s argument is very real but it could be said about many cards they they are terrible when topdecked into an empty hand. Lands, cheap creatures and ramp spells are other examples of 0 value topdeck cards in late game. My cube includes some answers to that problem such as Compulsion and friends. I personally really like giving players a way out from a bad situation if they fight for it hard enough.
However there is a huge difference between getting Turn 1 (or any other turn) Thoughtseized and getting Penny for your Thoughts’ed on that same turn. The fun factor matters and it is more fair.Felipe’s argument is very real but it could be said about many cards they they are terrible when topdecked into an empty hand. Lands, cheap creatures and ramp spells are other examples of 0 value topdeck cards in late game. My cube includes some answers to that problem such as Compulsion and friends. I personally really like giving players a way out from a bad situation if they fight for it hard enough.
I am not 100 % sure why I was quoted with the custom card Penny for Your Thoughts before that rant but you made me read it all and I am happy I did
Felipe’s argument is very real but it could be said about many cards they they are terrible when topdecked into an empty hand. Lands, cheap creatures and ramp spells are other examples of 0 value topdeck cards in late game. My cube includes some answers to that problem such as Compulsion and friends. I personally really like giving players a way out from a bad situation if they fight for it hard enough.
Oh- I thought penny for your thoughts meant you wanted me to expand upon what I said. I'm sorry for the confusion
.Oh- I thought penny for your thoughts meant you wanted me to expand upon what I said. I'm sorry for the confusion
No problem man
Here it is for anyone wondering:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/custom-cards-the-lab.403/page-87#post-82753
I usually don’t want to delude real Magic threads with custom cards so I didn’t upload the picture. My bad!
I really like this target discard because it doesn’t leave the villain with a sad feeling but actually enables fun gameplay if you ask me.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm still not going to run it because I've moved away from one mana targeted discard, but man, every time I see that card I wish I had designed it. It's the perfect marriage of flavor and function. Such a great design!No problem man
Here it is for anyone wondering:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/custom-cards-the-lab.403/page-87#post-82753
I usually don’t want to delude real Magic threads with custom cards so I didn’t upload the picture. My bad!
I really like this target discard because it doesn’t leave the villain with a sad feeling but actually enables fun gameplay if you ask me.
I really dislike the tone of discourse on that cube discord I was talking about the last couple of days. I get Cultic Cube and Usman hang out there, two people who I respect very highly in the cube community, but man some of the spikes are boorish.
Some of those conversations make those little three-way debates Onderz, Velrun and I have look like warm hugs and marshmallows.
Moral of the story: Stick with riptide if you like people who are usually pretty nice. Dealing with pure spikes probably isn't worth it.
Some of those conversations make those little three-way debates Onderz, Velrun and I have look like warm hugs and marshmallows.
Moral of the story: Stick with riptide if you like people who are usually pretty nice. Dealing with pure spikes probably isn't worth it.
I think with targeted discard it kind of straddles the line of fun/anti-fun. It's not as blatant as Hymn to Tourach, but I've certainly seen high-level players express their discontent with Thoughtseize in Standard environments.
It's not surprising that, if you have metrics other than power level, that there are people on both sides of the debate.
It's not surprising that, if you have metrics other than power level, that there are people on both sides of the debate.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I have cut targeted discard but I'm not really sure at the moment why I did
I love blackmail if you want not thoughtseize unfairity targeted discard
I love blackmail if you want not thoughtseize unfairity targeted discard
Design-wise, it's true that targeted discard is a poor mechanic. It does away with the hidden information present in the game, it increases the number of non-games and reduces the number of cards available to players in a game where players draw very few cards.
But I also believe it's necessary to a large degree. The game doesn't have mechanisms to interact your opponent cards without one of your own. You cannot "make a run" on an enchantment and pay mana to destroy it and your creatures cannot "fight" other creatures. The color pie also prevents most colours from interacting with spells. Targeted discard is one of the few ways left in the game of interacting with,say, Wildfire.
I'm glad to hear you guys have managed to create environments without targeted discard, though!
But I also believe it's necessary to a large degree. The game doesn't have mechanisms to interact your opponent cards without one of your own. You cannot "make a run" on an enchantment and pay mana to destroy it and your creatures cannot "fight" other creatures. The color pie also prevents most colours from interacting with spells. Targeted discard is one of the few ways left in the game of interacting with,say, Wildfire.
I'm glad to hear you guys have managed to create environments without targeted discard, though!
Eventually I'll get around to posting my cube, but currently I only tested inquisition of kozilek before taking it out. Which sounds fine cuz my bombs are in the higher cmc, the most it could do is be a disfigure to 1-3 cmc creatures right? But when it factored in artifacts and enchantments and counterspells it just felt too much like dromoka's command that's one mana cheaper and says "choose one". I may just sharpie out the last part of funeral charm if I really feel like I need discard.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I built a Legacy Cube! As in, a "Cube: Legacy" cube! As in, have you ever played Risk: Legacy or one of the other Legacy games? It started out as a Peasant cube, but it escalated pretty quickly. It was awesome to draft and play, and see all the shenanigans happening, but I'm here in this thread because I couldn't not share the broken highlight of yesterday's evening
This card might need to get cut in the future :')
By the way, the deck running this didn't win. The five-color deck running these cards did:
This card might need to get cut in the future :')
By the way, the deck running this didn't win. The five-color deck running these cards did:
Keep in ming it's a 5/5 Wall. It's my bane as an aggro player in Historic.
Momentary Blink with Cascade seems brutally hilarious haha
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It's certainly a lot of value :')
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Why is there a 3/1 flying for 1 with upside
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Because someone put two +1/+0 mods on the same one drop. That particular mod doesn't increase the cost of the card, and thus the most efficient one drop ever was created. That's how the cube works, but there will be ways to cripple or remove cards that got a bit too efficient in the future. Until that time, happy bashing in mono blue