General Fight Club

I'm right about more than one thing. But I'm not going to respect the home brew or the discussion it by putting lots of words into the Fight Club thread about a custom card. Start a topic in the right thread if you want to have a lengthy discussion. I will gladly put words to the conversation in there.
 
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Maybe we're too used to different environments, but so many of my cube games do have a resource war element to them - not necessarily attrition, but knowing that you have to play around your or your opponent's outs.
Like mono red holding onto Magmatic Sinkhole to get that Exalted Angel, keeping up a counter going into a swing turn, knowing that you have to apply enough early pressure that their Resto is going to have to be a flash blocker rather than a value engine, forcing them to pop their Ratchet Bomb early or tick it up before your Siege Gang comes down, etc. Getting that one card off the board, or preventing it from coming down at all.
In that situation, having a repeatable way of rebuying a key card that you can pitch early to all the sick discard outlets we have access to, knowing it gives you a second copy of whatever sounds really strong. And you can even mill yourself to hell to set it up, without having to be as careful as you would if your recursion was an EWit or Regrowth. It's not the first Uro that kills you.

I see where you're coming from (I was mostly bringing up constructed, because that's the primary comparison point most of us have... which is kinda problematic in and of itself)... but I still kinda disagree (or, at least, disagree that it's necessarily a problem)?

If I was drafting your grindy, resource war cube, I'd look at this theoretical "infinite" Regrowth and see a sweet engine piece that fits within the overall play structure of the cube. Sure, it might be way better than a normal Regrowth effect in that particular context... but presumably the cube has graveyard hate in it (so I can't just scream "I win!" as soon as it and a piece of removal end up in my graveyard), and tying up three lands (at Sorcery speed, no less!) and giving up a future land drop to get something back feels appropriately weighty.

Also... of course the first Uro doesn't kill you — the first Uro is just an Explore that gives you +3 life for {1}{G}{U}. The fact that the second Uro is wildly undercosted titan is what kills you. Like, yeah, sure, the continual recursion doesn't help... but Uro would still be incredibly powerful even if it was something like:

Uro, Mummy of Nature's Wrath - {1}{G}{U}
Legendary Creature - Elder Giant
When Uro enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless it is a Zombie.
Whenever Uro enters the battlefield or attacks, you gain 3 life and draw a card, then you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Embalm - {G}{G}{U}{U}, exile five other cards from your graveyard.
6/6

I mean, yeah, if your grindy, "answer for your answer"-style cube has big threats that effectively sidestep a lot of the outs in the format, having a way to repeatedly recur those threats is a problem... but I'd argue that that's because those threats don't belong in that kind of cube.
 
Thank-you for a really well put together response, genuinely appreciate it a great deal. Also very happy to discover we don't disagree as much as we might have :)

I don't think the 'infinite' regrowth is a problem card, just that it has a significantly higher ceiling than the 2/1 with retrace in cube and that the ceiling is the relevant factor - if it's a bad card for someone's deck it goes undrafted or unplayed, and if it's bad in a matchup it gets sided out.
It's absolutely a sweet engine card, I think more in line with Sprout Swarm or Life from the Loam, whereas the 2/1 is just another above rate Savannah Lions that come back that goes in a deck that has a couple of above rate Savannah Lions that come back, and they all keep attacking or being sacrificed until you win or you don't. Both are bad into a Scooze or a Lion Sash, the regrowth obviously worse, but as you correctly point out that's just part of the play/counterplay 'key card' dynamic. You're also totally right about Uro*, absurd card. I also happen to think that in an MTGS-style cube, the 2/1 is a potential 360 card whereas the regrowth-with-retrace is a 720 card, but they build pretty samey cubes so...

I guess what it comes down to is, I'm quite happy to play another above rate, recurring beater that helps provide critical mass of those cards for aggro while also adding some interesting new synergies or deck-building considerations for more combo-oriented shells. I'm more leery of a card that makes me re-evaluate the entire axis on which my cube is built, even if the floor on it is way lower.

I do however think the repeatable regrowth got one thing that a lot of the silver bullets or trump cards I listed don't, and that's the disposability (? poor word, right sentiment ?) of it.
Like, against a deck that can clock you, you Bone Shards their early play - pitching this. If you don't draw dead, great! You play efficiently, and this sits in the yard perhaps never getting cast. The thing is, you now don't have to worry about drawing dead later on because you can get back that Bone Shards or whatever other stuff you had to just chuck out there to buy time to answer a midgame threat like Questing Beast or whatever. Would I throw away the rest of my hand to kill a Questing Beast, either turning the corner or finally putting the aggro deck down? Hell yeah I would. I'm going to be drawing into gas. They're drawing into 1 mana 2/1s.
You can afford to lose a bit of card advantage because 1: You're running regrowth/s, you probably aren't the aggressor, you just need to hold on until card quality makes up the difference and likely have ways of regaining CA and 2: Any excess lands you now draw are now (mana-inefficient) plays of whichever card is the most relevant, should you need them to be - virtual CA right there. And you don't have to worry about throwing a vital creature or spell away to buy a turn, because you can spend that turn later on, after you've stabilized, rebuying that card and re-establishing your win condition. And if you do, you haven't even really spent your regrowth, so there's not much point in the opponent going for a hail mary to deal with your win con again. If Bone Shards seems too specifically engineered, imagine it was a Merfolk Looter to try and draw into an out, or a Collective Brutality killing something and draining for 2 or whatever. It is, at worst, a great insurance policy that really reduces tension in a game. Now imaging you're playing Storm. This turns all of your lands into extra rituals, and then into that one copy of whatever wincon you happened to run - probably Brain Freeze because holy synergy batman. It is, at best, absolutely degenerate because you literally cannot brick your combo turn if you've seen your retrace regrowth that game.

My other concern is how it feels as a card - imagine sitting across from one or the other of these cards. "Oh, a weird Gravecrawler. I'll kill it now, stonewall it later". "You mean I'm going to have to deal with Oko again?" Concede." The regrowth is a signposted threat that whatever good thing you have done or can do in the game is just going to keep on happening, that masterfully playing to your one out is not and never would have worked - you at a minimum need two, even if one of them is just "apply enough pressure that there's no time to cast the regrowth" - and that sounds painful to sit across from to me.

I absolutely agree that it's easily hated out and a terrible tempo play. I also think it goes in fewer decks than the 2/1. I just don't think that makes it less powerful than the 2/1. I think that all the surrounding elements, in a grindy resource war cube, makes it into one of those threats that don't belong in that kind of cube. I haven't thought about it in the context of constructed, largely because I don't think wizards would print it because it so obviously leads to repetitive game states when it does work and does stone-cold-nothing when it doesn't and wouldn't be considered exciting by modern design standards, and as such lives in the realm of "Custom cards to go in my custom format". I do think they might have printed it in Time Spiral if Retrace had been a longstanding mechanic back then, FWIW, and it probably would have done nothing more offensive than make some retail limited games incredibly frustrating and probably let Gabriel Nassif and Patrick Chapin have an even more disgusting semifinals match at Worlds :p

Not particularly trying to convince anyone, just getting my thoughts out there. Again, appreciate that you (and others) have put time and thought into doing the same.

* "Not the first Uro that kills you" was a saying around here shortly after it was printed, and was clearly more of a local thing than I thought. Generally referenced the 2nd Uro-as-creature (2nd Escape) rather than Uro-as-ramp (2nd cast). Also used as "not the first Ancestral that kills you", but that has been way less true in my experience :p
 
Oh, right, the 2/1. :p

I think I broadly agree with you, but I still feel like you're kinda undervaluing the broader applicability of the 2/1. It'd feel less powerful than the Eternal Regrowth in actual play (because you'd only see the Regrowth in decks that can abuse it to hell and back), but you'd see a lot more of it (because more archetypes can use an aggressive recursive creature). Granted, I'm on the record as being really weird and floaty regarding power level, so my opinion may be safely disregarded here.

As for Wizards not printing it because of repetitive play patterns... yeah, you're probably right. Which means that I'm going have to add "W&6 Emblem Cube" to my list of projects that I'll poke at at some point.

...

It just occurred to me that the card we've been discussing is just a broader Genesis with extra steps.

(I actually knew what you meant when you brought up the 2nd Uro. I was just being a bit silly.)
 
I'm actually taking Uro out of my cube next time I find a reasonable Simic card because...it's too good. Honestly, you're not going to have enough cards to escape it twice unless the game is super grindy, and certainly not more than that without you having essentially won from repeated triggers otherwise, so I don't think "fixing" solves its biggest issue. I'm sad to lose it since it's a sick card, but I also realized it's almost always correct to first pick it, and I don't want my cube to have such blatant or highly optimized first picks.

The idea of an endlessly-recurrable 1MV creature that can be stonewalled for unfinity turns by a simple Wall of Omens does not bother me as much. It seems fine, and I know because we essentially have 3 of them already.

Also I don't think the 2/1 for 1 with retrace would even be a top 3 1-drop in either of its colors if it were mono colored.
 
I think I broadly agree with you, but I still feel like you're kinda undervaluing the broader applicability of the 2/1. It'd feel less powerful than the Eternal Regrowth in actual play (because you'd only see the Regrowth in decks that can abuse it to hell and back), but you'd see a lot more of it (because more archetypes can use an aggressive recursive creature). Granted, I'm on the record as being really weird and floaty regarding power level, so my opinion may be safely disregarded here.
I actually hard agree with everything you've said here, and this is the exact reasoning for why I'd run the 2/1 in my list but not the regrowth. I think, in the end, the disagreement had nothing to do with our respective evaluations of the cards in questions, but our personal definition/usage of the word "powerful".

As for Wizards not printing it because of repetitive play patterns... yeah, you're probably right. Which means that I'm going have to add "W&6 Emblem Cube" to my list of projects that I'll poke at at some point.
Pls add it your your sig when you do, I would like to draft that. Would be really interesting with the MDFC spells, makes them even more modal.

...

It just occurred to me that the card we've been discussing is just a broader Genesis with extra steps.
... that's a great point, and more than any other is making me re-evaluate my position. I would run a Genesis that removed the creature restriction. I wonder if its the timing restriction/commitment to the recursion before your draw that makes me reflexively more comfortable with that as a card, or the inability to "go off" with like, a Seething Song and a Manamorphose in the bin...

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idk why "fight target" and "deal power damage to target" seem to be costed about the same
What a perfect set of cards to drag Fight Club back on topic with :p
I mean, compare the following though:
Prey Upon/Tail Swipe vs Aggressive Instinct/Rabid Bite
Ancient Animus vs Clear Shot/Ambuscade

I think turning a Fight into a Bite pretty consistently costs {1} - also Wizards pls keyword the "deal damage equal to power" text, would save room on cards that you could use to have them grant other keywords or other useful conditional upsides/modes that would make Bites much more interesting to cube with - I would love an instant speed Supernatural Stamina effect that Bites. Now that's a combat trick I would post about in Rav's new thread.
 
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i actually think it depends a lot. Uurg’s surveil ability reminds me of the virtual card advantage you get from DRC or Radha, Heart of Keld, and the fact you can keep bombs on top can be big. also he got a huge butt and gets enormous as a beater with fetches or wilds. the spider regrowth is nice but can be hard to fit into your mana bottleneck if you’re getting beat down.
 
Ignoring power level reasons, Uurg says "Gitrog was too good for my cube", and I'd expect to see other effects that chuck lands in the bin (Definitely fetches, probably triomes or other Cycling lands, KotR, Elvish Reclaimer, maybe some Deserts) or benefit from lands in the bin (LftL, Crucible), though maybe not the big ones (Titania, Gitrog) if I saw it go past in a pack. Nyx weaver is a much more generic "You can play self-mill + recursion in this cube" signpost and so doesn't lead people down the garden path. That'd be the thing that makes the decision for me, especially on a gold card. Personally, I've found I'm more influenced by gold and hybrid cards when I'm drafting a cube blind than I am by any other factor, and this has made me really think about what my multicolour sections say in my own lists.
 
i kinda think uurg might be better than gitrog due to being almost as big and costing 2 less

Gitrog draws you so many cards and for me that's the critical difference. Like, if you're running a lands package, the 2 mana difference is pretty negligible - Gitrog can come down on 3 pretty easily if you're doing the whole Fastbond/Exploration thing, and then it's constant gas. You will lose to decking yourself or dying to your own fetches and fastbond before you lose to not having drawn your outs.
Separately, Uurg wants {B}{B} in a primary {G} deck that might be splashing {W}, {R}, or even both. Outside the specific lands shell, Small Frog is better - but outside the specific lands shell, why is Uurg in your cube over Gitrog or a different signpost card? Big Frog has the higher ceiling and is a stronger signpost. So I see an Uurg, I think "Okay they have a lands deck, but it's missing the powerful pieces - no fastbond, no exploration, no Land Tax, no Titania, probably only in two colours, I don't think they'll have superramp, so that rules out Angry Omnath or Gross Omnath". I also then make assumptions about the power level of the cube as a whole as a consequence, but that's a me problem :p

Well, I do support both, a selfmill deck caring about creatures (Golgari Grave-Troll, Undead Butler) in Sultai colors as well as a selfmill deck caring about lands (Life from the Loam, Cabal Pit) in Jund colors. Also, flashback-like value stuff. So, I think the Nyx Weaver is better because it enables either and doesn't lead you to a specific flavor of selfmill?
Given that specific set up, and in the absence of Fastbond/Exploration, my vote goes to Nyx Weaver over Small Frog for exactly that reason.

In looking up cards to remember which omnaths were which, I discovered we do in fact, have a black omnath
 
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costing 2 more is NEVER negligible IMO
I would hard agree if it wasn't specifically for Fastbond and Exploration going with Gitrog so well and the deck tending towards larger spots on the curve - I'm trying to think of another case where I'm as comfy running a 5-drop as I would a 3-drop and I just can't

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Also, definitely agree on the first statement, Uurg is a good card - its just I consider it a weak signpost as compared to Gitrog or Nyx Weaver
 
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you still have to draw fastbond/exploration and the lands to have 5 lands in play ahead of schedule. id want a LOT of 1-2 cost cards that either help me do that or slow down my opponent so i don’t get too far behind while assembling my combo
 
Oh yeah, 100% agree - I'd be prioritizing picks like Once Upon A Time, Abundant Harvest, maybe Oath of Nissa, all that sort of stuff. Lands is one of those degenerate decks I expect to see in a powermax or near-powermax list. There are a lot of premises in my argument for Gitrog over Uurg, and if any of those premises don't hold true for a given list the Big Frog is a way bigger trap pick than the Small Frog.
 


ragavan definitely takes home a lot of trophies, but it feels *too* strong for many cubes. best creature types hands down!
robber feels like a fairer ragavan, but rather complex and hoopjumpy. rahilda's kinda the same thing?
rosnakht is like... half of a conversation. is that a bug or a feature? also, SUPER cute thematically
i love the modal mana dump option with ire shaman! and menace makes it better at doing its main job of damaging domes.
 
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