General CBS
- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
yet again an alchemy card whose existence is frustrating since I'll never be able to run it
your timing is incredible
edit: also put this one in your irl cube, don't even sharpie out Seek, just pretend it's a fake mechanic or like a tarmogoyf-style preview
I love it. only real issue is that it looks like it goes infinite easily (and does) but I worry folks would assume that it's in there for that reason -- I know I would
Following up on this from the previous page, a friend just pointed me to the website literally named pkmn cards dot com, it's every bit as Scryfall as I wanted!
Dom Harvey
Contributor
On Monday I watched someone curve T1 Birds of Paradise T2 attack with it + raid Chart a Course and I don't think there's more beauty to be found in games than that
Birds of paradise proc’ing raid. Just as nature intended
Is this an ok to ask random philosophical questions about cube design? I know there are cube blogs for more specific questions. I am in the process of fully revamping my cube and want to pick people brains about broad concepts.
I was curious what people’s thoughts on intentionally supporting aggro, midrange, and control.
I always assumed that was a good thing that any good cube should aim to do but wondering if maybe that isn’t the case. Like if there was an argument for not supporting aggro and control? I feel like I saw some other designers touching on that subject in their cube blogs.
The idea being that supporting the rock paper scissors nature of aggro-midrange-control eliminated one of the key tenets of riptidianism. You can make all these cool synergies etc but those might get overshadowed because you are a control deck that just happen to run into aggro or an aggro deck that just happen to run into midrange etc.
Obviously that oversimplifies it, but in general I’ve run into that issue where you draft a super cool control deck and it just gets run over by aggro decks and synergy becomes irrelevant. And it doesn’t feel good because it’s just bad RNG (“oh I’m playing an aggro deck so I guess I just lose”). Of course ultimately very good control decks will bear very good aggro decks but I am just being extreme to make the point.
is a cube that mostly promotes all midrange decks a better environment for riptidianism? Everyone has midrange so there is no rock paper scissors rng. I know “lol everything just devolves into grindy midrange” is always something I thought was the mark of poor design but maybe I was wrong? This comes out of the other discussion or big games vs small games.
anyways interested to see what people think
I always assumed that was a good thing that any good cube should aim to do but wondering if maybe that isn’t the case. Like if there was an argument for not supporting aggro and control? I feel like I saw some other designers touching on that subject in their cube blogs.
The idea being that supporting the rock paper scissors nature of aggro-midrange-control eliminated one of the key tenets of riptidianism. You can make all these cool synergies etc but those might get overshadowed because you are a control deck that just happen to run into aggro or an aggro deck that just happen to run into midrange etc.
Obviously that oversimplifies it, but in general I’ve run into that issue where you draft a super cool control deck and it just gets run over by aggro decks and synergy becomes irrelevant. And it doesn’t feel good because it’s just bad RNG (“oh I’m playing an aggro deck so I guess I just lose”). Of course ultimately very good control decks will bear very good aggro decks but I am just being extreme to make the point.
is a cube that mostly promotes all midrange decks a better environment for riptidianism? Everyone has midrange so there is no rock paper scissors rng. I know “lol everything just devolves into grindy midrange” is always something I thought was the mark of poor design but maybe I was wrong? This comes out of the other discussion or big games vs small games.
anyways interested to see what people think
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Personally I like supporting aggro to keep the format honest. Also, I quite like drafting 16 land Boros decks 
However, I think it’s perfectly valid to eschew particular archetypes if done with intent! Especially if you have a fixed playgroup with a preferred play style. For example, if you know nobody really enjoys playing aggro decks in your group, why should you support it?
However, I think it’s perfectly valid to eschew particular archetypes if done with intent! Especially if you have a fixed playgroup with a preferred play style. For example, if you know nobody really enjoys playing aggro decks in your group, why should you support it?I think you're gonna run into that old joke - ask two economists about something and you get three different answers - because it definitely varies by person. My opinion is "build the environment you want, and modify it however your regular play group wants if that stays within your tastes". Onder's got the right idea, IMO, because the flip side of "put the themes you want in your cube" is "actively exclude the ones you don't want"!
Now, that said, here are far more words about my specific position:
I have definitely aimed against control/aggro deliberately by weakning them, specifically by removing individual power outliers. I have a higher power level cube than most here (summary: 450, no power/initiative/monarch, yes Natural Order) but cut both Murktide Regent and Ajani, Nacatl Pariah for broadly similar reasons. I'm fine with Torrential Gearhulk and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but I want people to have to work for it.
For control, that's "work at killing your opponent" - if you can get a Jace, the Mind Sculptor ultimate off, you deserve the W. But the combat-based-murder options are deliberately possible to kill (not Aetherling) or reasonably-sized (not Murktide Regent) or stuff like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer that has a lot of upside but still works via combat. Also consider keeping all your wraths at 5+ mana* or conditionally-effective or similar.
For aggro, that's the other side of "work at killing your opponent" - Ajani, Nacatl Pariah is cracked, like Broadside Bombardiers and White Plume Adventurer and so on. You have to put in a little more effort than that! Even though I'm gonna let you have Cecil, Dark Knight or Bristly Bill, Spine Sower or whatever, there's still a line where I just kind of go yeah, too efficient, not worth it. Rewarding synergy over raw power helps with this, but there's also different kinds of raw power. Thraben Inspector is more powerful than Savannah Lions, even against a control deck, but it kills substantially more slowly! Stuff like that.
*this effect will forever be known to me as the "kithkin shotgun", memorably depicted by paz of Pro MTG Online fame over a decade ago:
Now, that said, here are far more words about my specific position:
I have definitely aimed against control/aggro deliberately by weakning them, specifically by removing individual power outliers. I have a higher power level cube than most here (summary: 450, no power/initiative/monarch, yes Natural Order) but cut both Murktide Regent and Ajani, Nacatl Pariah for broadly similar reasons. I'm fine with Torrential Gearhulk and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but I want people to have to work for it.
For control, that's "work at killing your opponent" - if you can get a Jace, the Mind Sculptor ultimate off, you deserve the W. But the combat-based-murder options are deliberately possible to kill (not Aetherling) or reasonably-sized (not Murktide Regent) or stuff like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer that has a lot of upside but still works via combat. Also consider keeping all your wraths at 5+ mana* or conditionally-effective or similar.
For aggro, that's the other side of "work at killing your opponent" - Ajani, Nacatl Pariah is cracked, like Broadside Bombardiers and White Plume Adventurer and so on. You have to put in a little more effort than that! Even though I'm gonna let you have Cecil, Dark Knight or Bristly Bill, Spine Sower or whatever, there's still a line where I just kind of go yeah, too efficient, not worth it. Rewarding synergy over raw power helps with this, but there's also different kinds of raw power. Thraben Inspector is more powerful than Savannah Lions, even against a control deck, but it kills substantially more slowly! Stuff like that.
*this effect will forever be known to me as the "kithkin shotgun", memorably depicted by paz of Pro MTG Online fame over a decade ago:
The funny thing is that even eschewing aggro cards, there will always be an aggro deck in a matchup. Even if it is a control deck. If the opponent is a slower control deck, you are the aggro player.
So the question becomes: what is the clock you want to represent at different mana curves? For a slow clock, go old school creatures, i.e. weak, a quick clock use the ones printed now (please don’t). When you have chosen the speed of the clock, create combo and control such that the matchups are to your liking. For example a win rate of 60-40 or 55 to 45. A cheap shot is to use block/sets close together in timeline. This does not always work, but busted spells and busted creatures do make a quick game, but one could almost play craps instead.
There are board games where you could lose the game on the first move, and have to suffer two hours to be done, and also games where luck is the only factor. Magic has the potential to have both luck and skill to be important, but it depends on the era.
Magic sets from fallen empires to scourge hit the mark for me (not for constructed but for draft type of games). The spells are more powerful than the creatures but you will still win with the weak creatures. In constructed it falls apart due to some constructed mistakes, but every urza block card is fine in a urza block cube. I do have an urza block cube, but i am quite certain that adding a mercadian masques block (which is perceived as weaker power) will work just fine. However, adding the two newer sets instead to the urza block will give a completely different outcome.
So the question becomes: what is the clock you want to represent at different mana curves? For a slow clock, go old school creatures, i.e. weak, a quick clock use the ones printed now (please don’t). When you have chosen the speed of the clock, create combo and control such that the matchups are to your liking. For example a win rate of 60-40 or 55 to 45. A cheap shot is to use block/sets close together in timeline. This does not always work, but busted spells and busted creatures do make a quick game, but one could almost play craps instead.
There are board games where you could lose the game on the first move, and have to suffer two hours to be done, and also games where luck is the only factor. Magic has the potential to have both luck and skill to be important, but it depends on the era.
Magic sets from fallen empires to scourge hit the mark for me (not for constructed but for draft type of games). The spells are more powerful than the creatures but you will still win with the weak creatures. In constructed it falls apart due to some constructed mistakes, but every urza block card is fine in a urza block cube. I do have an urza block cube, but i am quite certain that adding a mercadian masques block (which is perceived as weaker power) will work just fine. However, adding the two newer sets instead to the urza block will give a completely different outcome.
Gripe of the day: Going back to and updating my Flash Cube list...
Why does Nimble Pilferer exist?
Did Arena new-player precons really need that, and if you were gonna make it why not put it in a Jumpstart somewhere so I could actually play with it?
Did it have to have that name? I know a Nimble Pilferer already. Its name is Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. You used that exact phrase already. Come on. This is It'll Quench Ya! levels of rude.
Why does Nimble Pilferer exist?
Did Arena new-player precons really need that, and if you were gonna make it why not put it in a Jumpstart somewhere so I could actually play with it?
Did it have to have that name? I know a Nimble Pilferer already. Its name is Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer. You used that exact phrase already. Come on. This is It'll Quench Ya! levels of rude.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Double Reference [Derogatory]
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Back in the day power-max Cubes built their own cage with a commitment to aggro: if you wanted white or red aggro you had to focus on quantity as well as quality and pack your Cube with Savannah Lions and Jackal Pups that nobody else wanted (and they had to be as narrow as possible because they had to make it to those drafters!) so they could flood the board with them early and hope that was enough. This necessarily took up a lot of space and was best against any slower or synergistic deck that would get run over.
These days Cubes like that barely have those cards and red aggro HOFers like Goblin Guide or elite vanguards like Kytheon are nowhere in sight. Your red aggro deck is fine taking Turn 1 off because its 2s and 3s are so powerful that any uncontested one backed up by disruption can go the distance. There's more room and tolerance for nonsense there even though the bar overall is far higher.
Around these parts, synergistic aggro is all the rage and for good reason. You can try that in any colour(s) now - Prowess, Tokens, Sac, GY/Discard, Artifacts, Equipment, Counters, etc - and those decks are more popular from both sides in my experience.
You can also just not support aggro and it will be fine. People love this dichotomy between a Live the Dream-esque Cube where you're meant to have time to Fork your Cruel Ultimatum without trying and a ruthless Cube where aggro is punishing slowpokes but you can target some happy medium without adverse consequences.
I'd say it really depends on your design goals. I like the comfort of defined archetypes so I have the rough shell of these classics like U/W Control or R/G Midrange or Rx Aggro in my cube, but the real fun is in the details with your card inclusions and synergies you choose to emphasize. I want to play satisfying games of Magic more than anything and that comes from being able to attack the game in different ways.
I think with the proliferation of commander-centric design we've had a massive influx of do-it-all cards that end up being enabler and payoff and solid body all-in-one. It's what you need just to be viable in a format where you need to scale past 120 life and beat three other players, however that is often to the detriment of a 1v1 format like most limited environments.
I think the tension of having to deal with the rock-paper-scissors match-up is still fun and interesting, but it comes down to giving your drafters the tools to compete. You don't want to be the shitty aggro deck with multiples 2/1s in 2014 getting knocked out of a game after the T4 Wrath of God because you have zero card advantage or resiliency. We don't really have to design archetypes like that anymore with so many more options available nowadays. I realized at some point that the biggest issue is that the window to pressure and win the game was too limited for aggressive decks in traditional cubes a decade back; there was just a point of no return in games be that a wrath or a giant body that blocks the ground forever. R/x Aggro has reach in burn, but how can other colors get there? Armageddon was never an elegant solution and Initiative/Monarch are trash designs for 1v1 Magic. My solution was to find ways to extend the window to pressure by promoting vertical growth strategies in W/x Aggro and adapting the ideas of recursive black aggro that I found in Jason's articles over a decade ago and expanding from there.
Aggro can be MUCH more compelling with the plethora of interactions you have available at your disposal (I'm in the process of writing a pretty big article about this). I think to promote a healthy environment you ultimately have versions of all the main archetypes that exist in some form, but you promote enough bleed between them that it doesn't feel like drafting on wheels. And you give them enough depth to be compelling from a gameplay perspective. It's a different kind of game, but playing the game of dropping your opponent to 20 as quickly as possible before they can stabilize is equally as exciting for me as assembling the cool engine that can churn into the late game.
If it games end up being midrange everywhere that's not bad, but it will make drafting a bit dull. Part of the fun is being able to identify your lane and maximizing cards that come your way, being able to read a pack early and anticipate what might wheel back to you. The higher powered your cube and the more modern day pushed cards that are included, the less this will happen because if everything is just good then you lose that thrill. There isn't any "accomplishment" in picking just another powerful card if it's just going to get there regardless of your shell. It feels awesome when I can wheel like 3 aggressive white creatures back-to-back-to-back in the 2nd half of pack two after prioritizing something like universal removal early.
I think this only becomes evident with after spending a LOT of time tinkering and refining your cube over the years. I'm at the point where I'd say probably 90% of the build will remain intact for years to come. But there's always room to build and refine along the margins and trying to get the most out of your individual card inclusions. Those should be the most important thing when trying to build out the identity of the type of format you're trying to build for your players.
Last edited:
Others have made similar points already, but one of my favorite parts of cube is that each environment is unique, and each matchup within that environment is unique. Rather than having a codified aggro/midrange/control ecosystem, each deck is going to have a mana curve which suggests a "critical turn" that varies in both turn number and maximum power. Then, each matchup comes down to when each deck's critical turn is, and how much the game is over once you get there.
I've had Boros Aggro boarding in wraths to rein in faster aggro decks, and I've had slow decks board in various pegasi to put a clock on their even slower opponents. That's the magic of cube to me!
I've had Boros Aggro boarding in wraths to rein in faster aggro decks, and I've had slow decks board in various pegasi to put a clock on their even slower opponents. That's the magic of cube to me!
was really hoping one of those was Concordia Pegasus
Is this the thread where we share neat little cube stories?
I just won a crazy cube game against my fiance with Spitting Image. I was dredge and I won by making five copies of her Gary – drain for 2, drain for 4, drain for 6, drain for 8, drain for 10. Nice way to end a boardstalled game.
I just won a crazy cube game against my fiance with Spitting Image. I was
dredge and I won by making five copies of her Gary – drain for 2, drain for 4, drain for 6, drain for 8, drain for 10. Nice way to end a boardstalled game.