General "Looking for a card"-Thread

[Chris Taylor]

I Love dwarf infiltrator

 

[Fulcrum]

I'm looking for more cards that support dredge with filling the 'yard early, while being flexible enough as good picks for other decks.

- Castable with -Mana, meaning colorless cards would be sweet too
- Converted mana cost 3 or less
- being able to put 2+ cards in your graveyard

Prime examples I'm already running would be Merfolk Looter or Grapple with the Past.

I'm currently considering adding Mulch and Thought Scour, but unsure if they are useful outside of the dredge deck.

Don't forget ya boy.



I'm a big fan of Thought Scour and or Mental Note. Agree with the Careful Study suggestion up there as well.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Hermit Druid is already in his list, which is why I didn't mention it

 

[RavebornMuse]

Expanding somewhat on the Graveyard Synergy tools (you may be running some of these already, but I'm adding things from my list that can bin 2+ cards under 3 CMC for anyone else who's interested):







BONUS: ! I think red is a color that provides tremendous support to discard-for-value/graveyard synergies, and is probably my favourite way to play Drake Haven.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Yeah, Grixis is the discard for value shard in my cube, and red pulls its weight!

 

[Fulcrum]

Hermit Druid is already in his list, which is why I didn't mention it

I'm 0/2 this thread.

 

[ravnic]

Thanks guys for all these suggestions! I see it should be really easy to get a few more into blue.

In black, Cryptbreaker might just be what I was looking for.

In green however, I'm not super exited by most cards. I wish we could get a Grapple with the Past on a body like Satyr Wayfinder. Since nobody has mentioned it, how high are you guys on this?



I think I like it over Vessel and Mulch. Probably? And LftL just seems a little akward in a format without fetches and other self-saccing lands.

 

[sigh]

Commune with the gods vs. Vessel of Nascency is a very close fight for me. Vessel is winning right now because it just grabs so much. Being able to grab a key creature etc. adds so much value imo, effectively removing the chance to whiff, and reducing the chance you settle for something subpar like a basic land. That said, I do really like commune. Like vessel, grabbing that enchantment is critical for me, and it does dig five.

I wouldn't argue against running either card, tbh. I can see merit in both.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Vessel's wide range of potential targets gets it into significantly more decks over here than just ones looking to self-mill. I think Commune is cool but it's so narrow and seems like just a set-up card, whereas Vessel both sets up the graveyard AND offers amazing selection for a mere mana more. In my experience Mulch and Commune both just feel really limp but YMMV

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

Possible shell for Crawling Sensation: GW Tokens/Deserts



Plus the more extreme/narrow payoffs:


For a mid-power Graveyard cube.

Plus it could fold into an Enchantment theme with Benefaction of Rhonas, Cartouche of Solidarity, and Vessel of Nascency

Or you could make your drafters hate you:

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I wonder how many of the deserts can be relegated to the basic land box and a utility land draft?

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

If you go low enough power, I've found the "sacrifice a Desert:" ones to be fairly high picks. They're just great mana sinks and work well with graveyard themes. The Cycling ones, Dunes of the Dead, Sunscorched Desert and/or Painted Bluffs could definitely be put into the BLB though, especially if you just want it to be a subtheme. If that was the goal, I'd probably put the cycling Deserts and Painted Bluffs in the BLB, then use:

2 Ramunap Ruins
2 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Ipnu Rivulet
1 Hashep Oasis

The red and black ones are a bit stronger, so that has to be taken into consideration, although Ipnu Rivulet could be bumped up if a mill/self-mill theme is present. In my cube, self-mill is especially valuable and creature pumps are pretty good as a result of weak removal, so I just play 3 each of the sac Deserts and cycle Deserts.

 

[Kirblinx]

I'm 0/2 this thread.

Nah mate. You are 1/1 with flying.

Edit: Well played good sir. Well played.

 

[wahoopride]

Taking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite out of my cube because it's really unfun. Looking for a white cmc 6+ creature that is fun/interesting to replace it with. Any ideas?

 

[RavebornMuse]

Taking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite out of my cube because it's really unfun. Looking for a white cmc 6+ creature that is fun/interesting to replace it with. Any ideas?

Have you considered simply downsizing your cube somewhat? I'm not sure how many players you have on average, but a cube of that size would have a pretty high variance, which means that it's a lot harder to support neat archetypes. Just a thought! As for cool 6cmc+ cards that would work at your power level, Angel of Serenity has always been a hit, I think.

 

[wahoopride]

Have you considered simply downsizing your cube somewhat? I'm not sure how many players you have on average, but a cube of that size would have a pretty high variance, which means that it's a lot harder to support neat archetypes. Just a thought! As for cool 6cmc+ cards that would work at your power level, Angel of Serenity has always been a hit, I think.

Yeah. I understand the trade offs involved with making your cube bigger. I have read, with interest, the discussions involving that topic on this board before. I know many people have the design philosophy where consistency is king. A consistent cube will definitely make for a more competitive environment.

However the trade off is that consistency general also means repetition. That is to say, you are going to see the same general decks coming together and the same type of showdowns draft after draft. While this will makes things more competitive and balanced, it can also make things stale.

What I love about cube is the crazy interactions you can have between cards because you are pulling from the universe of all available magic cards. I posted about such an occurrence in the CBS thread--that should give you some idea of what I am talking about. I feel like the smaller the cube becomes, the less interesting and unique each game becomes, with interactions becoming repetitive and predictable. Basically it starts to feel like one of WoTC's expansion sets. I go to the pre-release events and stuff because each time they usually have a fun new environment. But I could not imagine doing the same expansion over and over again. That is what I feel like cube would become if it was small. Because its eternal (rather than a WoTC expansion which goes away after 3-6 months to be replaced by a brand new expansion with new mechanics etc), the cube would get so boring. Now if my plan was to completely re-do my cube every 6 months from scratch maybe 360 would make more sense. But I would rather have a larger cube that I could play for many years without having it be stale.

I understand this philosophy comes at the expense of consistency. And I am ok with that. I have 3 other guys I regularly draft with (total of 4) and none of us are ultra-competitive MTG players. I think we enjoy the variety more than any internal consistency. We also play a lot of silly games with the cube--Two Headed Giant, 2v2, EDH, etc. Which makes consistency of even less import.

Anyways, hope that makes sense. And thanks for the suggestion on Angel of Serenity.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

To provide a bit of a baseline, we'll go down to 3 (very casual) players, and there is still a lot of variance for 3 players at 360.

I would caution strongly against the idea of overly correlating cube size with the rate that a format becomes stale. That's an over simplification that can hurt you. What we're specifically talking about is the rate that a meta is solved, meaning: how long does it take to figure out how to orient oneself in a format to achieve wins. Once you know how to orient yourself, things can become overly static, restrictive, and stale, as you follow the same general approach to every draft to win.

Cube size really isn't a guard, or ward, against that happening. A lot of WOTC's larger midrange cubes, for example, I would say are guilty of that. There are a lot of potential causes: a wide power band, for instance, can make raw cube size largely symbolic, since a huge portion of it may be obsoleted by the other. Alternatively, perhaps too narrow of a power band, may mean that many cards are overly redundent, or identical in function, to the point where the cube size is again only symbolic, since so many of the cards function interchangably.

Or perhaps worst of all, the proper way to orient yourself in the format might be one dimensional. If planeswalkers, or ETB creatures, or mana rocks, are the clear best thing to do in a format, than players will learn that, and a giant format can start to feel stale and uninteresting very quickly since the way you win is always following the same axis. I think this is what happens to most people.

Thats not to say that cube size can't play a role: essentially, what you are doing by increasing size, is adding raw variables, and a huge density of raw variables can complicate things, and slow down the rate of learning how to properly orient yourself in a format. This can be exciting.

But you can't necessarly industrial complex your way to a never-stale format by jacking up the number of raw variables, since those variables have to also be relevent.

In addition, you have the option of focusing on individual cards that are more dynamic in nature, allowing you to have a small body (consistancy, structure, form) but also a dynamic meta (inconsistancy, open bounds, creativity).

 

[japahn]

Taking Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite out of my cube because it's really unfun. Looking for a white cmc 6+ creature that is fun/interesting to replace it with. Any ideas?

I run both, but can't really vouch for them - I'm still trying them out. It's actually really hard to find white fatties at my power band.

On the topic of cube size, I run a large cube too and wahoopride's writeup lists the reasons very well. I do agree that when you're just wishing for more functional variations of the cards you are already running, that means your cube is overstretched, and I have hit this limitation with a 12 player cube, going down to 10. Now, after a couple of blocks, I've scaled back to 12 and I'm feeling like there are always interesting effects to try out.

What definitely does suffer are the synergy decks, as there's always the chance that you drafted enablers but not payoffs, and vice-versa.

My current plan about synergy is to be mostly good-stuff (in the sense that explicit synergies are not as relevant as the macro archetypes (aggro, control, tempo, ramp) but seed some payoff cards for synergies that have natural enablers in the cube (graveyard, lifegain, spells, tokens). That way, the synergy deck has a chance of being drafted, and the signal to do it are the payoffs, and the deck does not take up many slots. This is a work in progress though, and we'll see how that goes.

 

[shamizy]

The two top-end white creatures I've been running are:



Sun Titan is always a solid body, 4WW makes it castable in just about every white based deck. Big body, Vigilance, and being able to buy back 3cmc and below permanents has been clutch. Fun top end card for Birthing Pod decks as well.

Linvala has been just the same for more controlling decks. A 5/5 flyer can tangle with most things in the air in my cube and the lifegain + bring a buddy effects are pretty good at stabilizing your position if you've fallen behind. If you reanimate her early you might not get either effect, but in that case it's still just a 5/5 in the air able to apply pressure handily. She's just been really solid. Also, I have a foil copy of it and the artwork is incredible. It might just be the most beautiful card in my entire cube.

 

[wahoopride]

To provide a bit of a baseline, we'll go down to 3 (very casual) players, and there is still a lot of variance for 3 players at 360.

This is obviously a matter of opinion. And I was speaking from a relative sense. All things being equal, there is more variety in a 540 card cube than a 360 card cube.

What we're specifically talking about is the rate that a meta is solved, meaning: how long does it take to figure out how to orient oneself in a format to achieve wins. Once you know how to orient yourself, things can become overly static, restrictive, and stale, as you follow the same general approach to every draft to win.

This may be what some people talk about when they mean variety. "How quickly can a meta be solved" is one factor to consider when talking about variety. But there are others. I appreciate that "easy of solving meta" is the one you consider to be the most important. But, as I will hopefully explain later in the post, it is not the only, and perhaps not even the most important for my play group.

Cube size really isn't a guard, or ward, against that happening. A lot of WOTC's larger midrange cubes, for example, I would say are guilty of that. There are a lot of potential causes: a wide power band, for instance, can make raw cube size largely symbolic, since a huge portion of it may be obsoleted by the other. Alternatively, perhaps too narrow of a power band, may mean that many cards are overly redundent, or identical in function, to the point where the cube size is again only symbolic, since so many of the cards function interchangably.

This is why I made the point of of saying "all things being equal". Of course, if you start your comparison by assuming a larger cube is of poorer design, I can understand why you would arrive at the conclusion you have. You will find no argument from me that I would rather a well designed small cube than a poorly designed large cube. But I'm not sure why you would limit yourself to only those two options. I would speculate that if WOTC decided to design a 360 cube it would also be trash. Like, I agree it is possible to design a bad large cube, if that is what you are trying to say.

Or perhaps worst of all, the proper way to orient yourself in the format might be one dimensional. If planeswalkers, or ETB creatures, or mana rocks, are the clear best thing to do in a format, than players will learn that, and a giant format can start to feel stale and uninteresting very quickly since the way you win is always following the same axis. I think this is what happens to most people.

This is true of any sized format, yes?

Thats not to say that cube size can't play a role: essentially, what you are doing by increasing size, is adding raw variables, and a huge density of raw variables can complicate things, and slow down the rate of learning how to properly orient yourself in a format. This can be exciting.

I am not sure what you mean here. If all you are saying is that having more unique cards means the possibility of more interactions, more synergies/archetypes what have you, and more different possible unique decks, then yes. You seem to be restating more or less my original point.

But you can't necessarly industrial complex your way to a never-stale format by jacking up the number of raw variables, since those variables have to also be relevent.

In addition, you have the option of focusing on individual cards that are more dynamic in nature, allowing you to have a small body (consistancy, structure, form) but also a dynamic meta (inconsistancy, open bounds, creativity).

^Good advice for all cube designers, to be sure. Regardless of size.


Ultimately it feels like your main way of experiencing a cube is as a solvable game that can and should be minmaxed as much as possible. And that is totally cool. I approach some things that way. But for me and the rest of my play group, we mostly do not approach cube that way. Mostly we view cubing as a way to express creativity in the decks we play and get new and fun interactions. The other day when I played, I first-pack-first-picked gelectrode because I was determined to play a red/blue "spells matter" deck. I can assure you it was not the best card in the back nor was the deck necessarily the one most likely to succeed. But I just wanted to do it so I could pilot that kind of deck. Even knowing it may have not been the most optimal way to "orient myself in the meta". I have had my fellow cubers tell me things like "today I decided no matter what I was going to try to play a cool Red-Green deck because I feel like I haven't seen that get played much". And that is awesome to me. Everyone I play with wants to win, but we all also want to be creative and try new/cool stuff--regardless of what might be the optimal strategy. In such a situation, I feel it is more important to offer unique card choices and interactions than reliable and repeatable decks or a dependable metagame. Your advice to "be careful not to just add cards for the sake of adding them because they might end up just being redundant anyways or the power band might get out of whack" is of course good advice. My goal is to have a big cube that still has unique cards. I understand that is harder than balancing a 360 card cube, and thus will inevitable create more design mistakes than if I kept it smaller. But it is a downside I am willing accept to take to capture possible benefits. If your argument that WoTC has not printed enough cards to make a large cube with all unique cards then ok, we will just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, I think you must concede that a well designed large cube will offer more variety at the expense of consistency and vice versa for a smaller cube.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm not saying that small cubes are better than larger cubes or vice versa, what I am saying is that large cubes don't necessarly mean you get more variety or creativity.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

As for interesting options in white at six mana, I personally run and enjoy:



Linvala has been mentioned multiple times, it's a cool card that lets slower decks play catch up.
Sentinel protects you very well, tapping down their biggest threat (be it an actual big creature or something with evasion), while holding the fort against smaller fry at the same time.

Another one I've played in the past and really liked is:



A pseudo-wrath that puts down a sizable threat at the same time, this one's really solid without being too much. One time someone got it imprinted on a Mimic Vat. That was pretty nasty

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I can vouch for Sentilen, it feels really good to be able to control the board like that. You can use the tap ability offensively as well, tap down their best blocker.

 

[Chris Taylor]

There's also



(Though I literally just run sun titan @450, go me and my slanted design! )

 

[wahoopride]

large cubes don't necessarly mean you get more variety or creativity.

I agree. They do not necessarily mean that.