-1

[Brad]

I'm not worried about dealing with Rakdos' body, which is powerful, but I'm VERY worried about all the coin flips going wrong and his ETB goes +3 and the game effectively ends for 5 mana.

Removal options are as endless as the one drop options. Smother is a poor man's Fatal Push. Last Gasp is like black Bolt. As you said, Bake is Murder+ and Murder is probably fine at BB, as well. Cannibalize is potentially interesting if exile is a desirable thing to do. Price could be a perfect 1cmc kill if the hybrid density creeps up as high as I expect that it will. A lot of removal gets over priced for the limited environment it's in and will probably look sweet.

Flexible removal like Anguished Unmaking is a bit aggressive, but, let's face it, it USUALLY is a Doom Blade anyways. And no one likes to lose because they didn't pick up a Disenchant or Shatter. Will definitely be looking for cards that can destroy multiple permanent types further in development.

I don't particularly like LD but it's hard to feel too bad about 5cmc Casualties of War, Spiteful Blow, and Grip of Desolation. Combined with Deathsprout, we could have some new ramptrol deck that sticks the opponent in the early-mid game and plays a late game over the top. It could easily be some sort of Death Cloud build, as well. D Cloud always felt like it was a bit short of being impactful to me.

 

[Brad]

GB VALUE SOULS

List is intended to be excessively long to show options. Some of the picks are questionable.

Pretty easy. Play your soulshift creatures and get value into the late game. It's technically a tribal deck, but it doesn't suffer from wanting to collect an obscene number of them AND over commit to the board. Get a decent spirits count, which are generally decent creatures now anyways, and get value.

Doesn't over-enable the yard like reanimator or Dredge-like strategies would. If we over-enable the yard, we will likely have to remove the black and red 1cmc filtering spells, as they load the yard rather quickly. This is more gently graveyard related, where you'll pick up a bit of value later but aren't concerned with getting that T3 10/10 that reanimator would be.

Both Inames are pretty cool effects on a slightly poor body. Mass Entomb and soulshift infinity. Lifespinner seems cool as a solid 3/3 for 3 with a possible big impact. Loam Dweller seems fucked up, right? Not huge on the BB and GG 2 drops, but the scry 2 is cool... but it has too much toughness. Idk. The deck is definitely there and you'd round it off with some generic value GB multi cards.

Again, a cool deck because it's using almost entirely useless cards in normal circumstances. Gives you a lot of value but forces you to invest mana to claim the value.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

If you're running a spirit theme in BG, I'ld also consider



The two Onna's and the Foul Familiar in particular let you rebuy "when you play a Spirit"-triggers.

Sadly, there are no (playable) >2 cmc spirits in BG that let you sacrifice your own stuff, so you have to rely on other cards to trigger your soulshift stuff.

 

[Brad]

Didn't notice Nyxborn is a 2/1 for B, d'oh!
Soilshaper looks a bit too 4/4 for G.
Really hate the look for a lot of the old cards and avoid them unless they're really on-point.
Pestilent got a long look but ultimately seems like a LOT of stuff for 2 mana.
Phantom is cool but gets annoying with any buffs and is a little annoying anyways.
Eidolon makes it if enchantments become a thing, which is on the list to look into.
Haru is probably good and an oversight.
Most of the Kirins are pushed bodies with the potential to fuck up the game too quickly.
Banshees are tempo ETB.
Skalla got a long look and I really wish it had a keyword or a 4th toughness. As is, I'm not convinced, but it's probably worth a go.
Sage should be in the list, especially as it pairs into the RG I'm eyeing.

I was thinking SoulSac could be the theme of the multi cards or possibly BR is sac to rid yourself of the burdensome effects.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Also...



This looks better at one mana. Wish the activation cost was reduced as well...

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Also...



This looks better at one mana. Wish the activation cost was reduced as well...

I kinda want to cube an errata'd version of that with Equip . The card is sweet!

 

[Brad]

Damn, ya. That equip cost probably kills it. Equips are a weird one here.

THICC GRUUL

I cut a bunch of stuff from the playables and this list is still way too long. Not going to comment on individual cards because there's too damn many. Basically, my idea is that the deck will not just try to stick a 6 drop, but will go for a 10 drop or some massive X guy like the very Gruul Apocalypse Hydra. Plenty of stuff to ramp into, so I didn't include that section.

IIRC, Train and Onder are both in support of early ramp. Do you guys never feel that the G decks jump too far ahead in the curve right away? That was always my experience when playing with Elves and 1G Sorcery ramps. The G deck gets a T3 5/5 and you either remove it or fall way behind to it.

Late Edit: I really like how Journey of Discovery makes most of your 2 landers into keeps. Armillary Sphere will as well.

 

[TekLazar]

So chiming in cuz I love spirits but soulshift is definitely too slow normally so that looks really fun.
So I wanted to chime in cuz of ramp, I've had similar fears over "turbo-ramp" or just fast ramp in general. From what I've seen most of that is mitigated by how fast removal is in your cube and how much removal is in your cube. If you have a 360 cube with 72 doom blades (as an example) then ramping out a 5 drop on turn 3 will likely be not that great (barring enter the battlefield effects and death triggers) or almost any non-black creature for that matter. But obviously if you have only 36 angelic edicts then yes, a 5 drop on turn 3 will be hard to deal with. Honestly removal will help dictate the type of format you want to create, I know ideas are mostly being thrown around but I think deciding which and what removal will help a lot. Whether you want a "what if modern...?" with 2 mana rend flesh or if you want combat trick removal with stuff like 1 mana Vicious Offering will really help you decide on what kind of creatures you want running around your cube or how fast you can have ramp be.
(Also yes a game can be decided if you draw removal or not with turbo ramp but a game can also be decided by mana flood/screw. It really depends on whether you want those games to be in your cube)

PS: I always come back to this article and this tool when it comes to removal
PSS: Wait was I supposed to have the LARGEST FONT in my heading for this thread?

 

[Brad]

Really cool to see some hard numbers on that stuff. I am curious if the removal answers the green decks, which answer the aggro decks. But the removal answers the aggro decks as well and aggro just gets squashed either way.

I'm specifically worried about the theoretical T3 5/5 and don't also want to kill the T6 10/10 every time because that deserves to be a payoff but shouldn't have hexproof because fuck hexproof AND I don't want to kill every T1 2/2.

Surely quite a bit to consider and I'm looking forward to hearing from my green ramp guys in the thread. Perhaps ETB tappers or can't blocks from the aggro decks could be critical for pushing. Hmm.

Glad you're on board with Soulshift.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

They can only play a t3 5/5 if you run four cmc 5/5s. I don't.

 

[Brad]

They can only play a t3 5/5 if you run four cmc 5/5s. I don't.

Crumble has 5 ramp sources for T3 Ripjaw Raptor.
Wheel of Change has 6 sources for T3 Ripjaw Raptor.

I'm still pretty scared of T3 Raptor, which is often worse to deal with if you're Rx aggro than some 5/5.

I'm suspecting Tek may be right that the appropriateness of the T3 Monster is relative to the removal density. Some options to not squash aggro as well:

This may or may not be necessary, I don't know. Quite a few of those are cool either way. I may try some 1G spells and see how I feel in testing. Historically, I didn't enjoy them, but I can't recall what my removal density was two years ago.


How are you liking Zacama? Does s/he end a lot of games on the spot with the trigger into activated abilities?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Zacama is an awesome reward for the ramp deck! It's about the biggest haymaker you can pull off, and yes, it does end games, but that is not necessarily a bad thing at nine mana. Also, three activations at that point of the game is usually not enough to completely wreck the opponent, so if they can remove it, play tends to continue with the scales slightly tipped in the caster's direction. Great card.

Also, t3 Raptor is scary, sure, but the 4 power means it does take a turn more to kill you. Aggro typically wants to get around it by tapping it down, or be evasive in another way. Also, that's the reward for picking up the ramp deck. It's okay for this deck to exist, and sometimes it does win a draft, but it's definitely not been dominant in the Crumble Pie cube. No experience in the Wheel of Change cube, as I have yet to organize a draft (I don't even have all the cards for it yet), but I'm assuming it's not much different there. If anything, aggro has become a bit stronger.

 

[Brad]

Zacama is an awesome reward for the ramp deck! It's about the biggest haymaker you can pull off, and yes, it does end games, but that is not necessarily a bad thing at nine mana. Also, three activations at that point of the game is usually not enough to completely wreck the opponent, so if they can remove it, play tends to continue with the scales slightly tipped in the caster's direction. Great card.

Also, t3 Raptor is scary, sure, but the 4 power means it does take a turn more to kill you. Aggro typically wants to get around it by tapping it down, or be evasive in another way. Also, that's the reward for picking up the ramp deck. It's okay for this deck to exist, and sometimes it does win a draft, but it's definitely not been dominant in the Crumble Pie cube. No experience in the Wheel of Change cube, as I have yet to organize a draft (I don't even have all the cards for it yet), but I'm assuming it's not much different there. If anything, aggro has become a bit stronger.

Ok, I'm just gonna add Rampant Growths and keep an eye on it. I have more knowledge this time around.

You still think Cultivate is a good idea? Really liking Beanstalk Giant, Spring // Mind, and Grow from the Ashes as a Rampant Growth with a later bonus.

EDIT: Zacama gets so ugly when you're untapping more lands than it costs and the three heads can't do three abilities for three mana each when you only have eight lands but whatever lol.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

You still think Cultivate is a good idea? Really liking Beanstalk Giant, Spring // Mind, and Grow from the Ashes as a Rampant Growth with a later bonus.

I like all of your three suggestions better than Cultivate! Besides those three I like these two better than Cultivate as well:



Deep Reconnaissance ramps into itself. I mean, you're doing nothing for three turns, but then you're off!

 

[Brad]

Hell ya, those ones are good, too. I looked at... whatever the BFZ instant speed one is, but that seems pretty dumb to ramp OR counter. Too much power there, I think.

Anyways, that's five that are Rampant+ without being overwhelming, so that's spot-on!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Hell ya, those ones are good, too. I looked at... whatever the BFZ instant speed one is, but that seems pretty dumb to ramp OR counter. Too much power there, I think.

Anyways, that's five that are Rampant+ without being overwhelming, so that's spot-on!

I actually also run Coiling Oracle, Maraleaf Pixie, Radha, Heir to Keld, and Zhur-Taa Druid, so 10 options in total. I think you could use some more ramp even, though I think you got the best 3 cmc green sorceries. Some additional options.



I think cards like Atzocan Seer and Silhana Starfletcher have a bit too much butt for mana ramp, though they do have to tap, so maybe it's okay.

Oh, and another fun one, though not exactly turn 2 ramp:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Jeez, Elvish Harbinger into Cultivator of Blades, Nath of the Gilt-Leaf or Underrealm Lich is all kinds of exciting! I think I might just include two Harbingers in my version of this cube if it ever comes together

 

[Brad]

Good catch on the non-sorcery stuff!

Agree that the 3-point butts are just a little bit much for something that also ramps.

Elvish is totally sweet and pretty easy to make useful. Just did a quick 4+cmc elf search and found 12 that are around the right power level.

The ramp package will have to be a bit suited to my decks. The enchantments seem great if I go GW or Bant enchantments. Weirding Wood being especially good with the ELD "if you control an artifact or enchantment" cards. I like how we can kill the creature or enchantment, whereas I'm not going to run early LD to kill a Rampant Growth.

Silkwing is pretty cool. Solid hitter and cash it in later. Dawntreader Elk is along the same lines but maybe just barely too much value? 2/2 for G is already premium.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Yeah Grizzly Bears seems like a great card for already. Or rather Cylian Elf, if we're going with an elf subtheme

 

[Brad]

4 copies of Cylian Sunsinger if we go with an elf subtheme in a Shards-esque block.

Which is something I'm leaning towards again...

 

[Brad]

Loose Shards 2.0 -1 Framework

Bant
Ok, so Bant sucks unless you do ETB. SO, I'm thinking either mild ETBs here, an enchantment deck tied to Esper via Banish into Fable etc as well as equips and gearable creatures, or a Bant legends deck that would be tied down by The Circle of Loyalty, Time of Need, etc. The Theros Legendary Artifact Enchantments might be on the higher power end of what we're doing, but could tie Bant legends OR enchantments into Esper. Enchantments gets a big boost from all the cantrips tacked onto so many of them, allowing the deck to smooth its hand and get a large count of enchantments into play. Historic ties legends into Esper.

Esper
I'm loving how many cards that create a Clue, Treasure, or Food become a quick extra artifact count. Many 1 cost artifacts are now 0s that can contribute to that count as well. I also recall having such a fascination at the time that they were printing colored artifacts and I still find them pretty cool. The Legendary artifacts from Eldraine are a cool addition to not only this shard, but the W one is great in Bant and the B one is great in Jund. The R and G ones don't tie to Esper, but are also great. especially G in Naya.

Grixis
So, this is a bit of an issue as well. I definitely want Grixis to be the typical flashbacky graveyard deck that we're used to. This means the R and B turn 1 hand smoothers would leave the cube, as they pulse the yard VERY efficiently and rapidly. That said, the 3c decks all touch at least one of blue/green, where our primary smoothers would be and there will be plenty of cycling and Temples as well. Grixis is always a favorite deck and I don't want to let it draw 3 off a Ransack the Lab.

Jund
So, it would probably be RIP for GB Soulshift, but that's ok. Maybe some of it could stick around, but it gets pretty disconnected. The red spirits are rather lacking and I didn't notice a Soulshift card in red at all. Besides that, the Jund section gets to do its sac thing via Shattergang Brothers while either Kresh, the Bloodbraided or Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper help out.

Naya
God, I love Naya. Beasts and Dinos. Small creatures. Medium Creatures. Big creatures. Not those stupid fucking human decks. This is a savage creature deck that I've had an affinity for ever since seeing the efficiency of Wild Nacatl and Woolly Thoctar and I fantasized about the damage that Godsire could do if he lives a turn cycle. Naya keeps it simple and just beats the shit out of you at every mana cost.



So, that's where I'm at. Kind of a format I've been wanting to go back to and it's one where a lot of the old cards are looking reasonable with a mana shaved off. You also get the advantage of running a lot of cycles (without customs) when you're on all allied pairs. I think that, ultimately, whatever color wheel I run won't matter, so I might as well go back to one that reminds me of going to prereleases in high school with the same guys who are in my playgroup today. I know they'll appreciate it, too.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Loose Shards 2.0 -1 Framework
Grixis
So, this is a bit of an issue as well. I definitely want Grixis to be the typical flashbacky graveyard deck that we're used to. This means the R and B turn 1 hand smoothers would leave the cube, as they pulse the yard VERY efficiently and rapidly. That said, the 3c decks all touch at least one of blue/green, where our primary smoothers would be and there will be plenty of cycling and Temples as well. Grixis is always a favorite deck and I don't want to let it draw 3 off a Ransack the Lab.

Just use weaker payoffs that will be made good by the enablers. Necropolis Fiend and Dead Drop might be bad in a normal context, but when they're less expensive and being fueled by great filtering spells. There are a lot of graveyard payoffs that are too expensive, slow, or resource intensive for normal magic that would be great here given the R/B filtering you have available.

 

[Brad]

Just use weaker payoffs that will be made good by the enablers. Necropolis Fiend and Dead Drop might be bad in a normal context, but when they're less expensive and being fueled by great filtering spells. There are a lot of graveyard payoffs that are too expensive, slow, or resource intensive for normal magic that would be great here given the R/B filtering you have available.

I was thinking I'd soft ban the T1 enablers. Dark Bargain and Bitter Revelation come to mind as potential enablers. I'm sure there are plentyyyy more, I just have to do the search.

The issue with the weaker payoffs is that Ransack into dump a Think Twice is already a pretty dang strong play and I'm sure there will be a lot more situations where Ransack looks like "B: draw two-three," so I'd rather get ahead of that. I can't imagine my Grixis without Think Twice.

Also, Mystical Teachings deck???? Might work out.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I was thinking I'd soft ban the T1 enablers. Dark Bargain and Bitter Revelation come to mind as potential enablers. I'm sure there are plentyyyy more, I just have to do the search.

The issue with the weaker payoffs is that Ransack into dump a Think Twice is already a pretty dang strong play and I'm sure there will be a lot more situations where Ransack looks like "B: draw two-three," so I'd rather get ahead of that. I can't imagine my Grixis without Think Twice.

Also, Mystical Teachings deck???? Might work out.

I think you're a little too worried about this. Isn't a large amount of the appeal to this format the cheap smoothing and card advantage? As you stated in your first post:

The main spot where I believe the -1 mana will come into play for fixing nongames is the hand smoothing cards. If you've played with Serum Visions, Ponder, etc, you know how much more keepable the hands with the turn 1 smoother are.

Going up to three mana for smoothing in black and red seems to defeat an important part of your original premise. You don't have to forgo the quick GY enablers in black and red to avoid making grixis spells too good. If Think Twice is going to be an issue, then don't run Think Twice instead of banning half the rest of the field. You could use an effect like Scour All Possibilities to create a good card for opening games without giving graveyard decks in particular too much to abuse.

The other thing to remember is that drawing cards doesn't necessarily equate to game victories. In my cube, Blue/Black decks are really good at churning through a lot of cards, but aren't always able to make ends meet because they are running low on other resources. Another example is Blue/Red decks in Throne of Eldraine limited, which can quite easily deck themselves but have a tendency to crumble to a well-placed Garenbrig Paladin. Having insane card advantage is only broken when that can be directly turned into insane early game advantage, such as Hogaak decks in modern. Value alone doesn't win games by itself. I think you can build a format where graveyard decks can be good and still use pieces that are playable in other strategies, but not be busted with a capital B.

Also, Mystical Teachings deck.

Yes.

 

[Brad]

I guess it's a matter of how good would more Faithless Lootings be? Tormenting Voice and Eldraine Instant Voice (you know the one) are just a pitch one and I've run Lootings.

Churn and Ransack, however... I don't know, that's a lot of cards. There will be T2 options in black, which is still pretty big.

Then white will be a bit empty on the smoothing, but it's right next to green and blue, which will be fantastic hand fixing colors, so that's fine.

Maybe it's fine, and I already own all these cards, so I'll just run them initially and see what looks like the problem, if there is one. Sometimes these decks can get over saturated with cards and they can't get the spells cast before they're dead, but we're in a condensed format. Not sure. Might as well try it.

My next post may need to be low mana opportunities to see more cards, sorted by shard. There's some overlap, for sure, but I notice a few that get better in the format.