General 720

CML

Contributor
Ridiculous argument, there are all kinds of decks that don't want Wasteland in Vintage and Legacy and (most indicatively) Cube. Its power level is nowhere near that of a Mox.

I've said it before and will say it again: the bad posts on this forum aren't bad because the thought processes are bad, they're bad because the power level assessments are off, mostly due to a lack of competitive play or practical experience, i.e. (in Wadds's words) "theorycrafted." Nobody who has played Vintage or Legacy even something as simplistic (and analogous) as a powered Cube would argue the two cards are remotely comparable.

As a fan of "Midrange Warz" myself, I'd say the best argument you have for running the Moxen is that Upheaval goes from ruining the game to ruining the game a turn earlier (and more decisively). Like ripping off a Band-Aid.
 
The essential variety is important to some people's idea of cubing. People have realized it can be better with fewer dragons and more fixing and smaller selections to keep things more even, but these are kinda relatively new, very community criticism based innovations in my opinion, though I haven't been an active cube-talker-abouter through the middle kingdom of cubing. I think our friend WTWLF and his ilk have a lot to do with pressing it in the directions we have taken further, though we appear to put less influence out there.

There are still people out there with 540 cubes and see rhuric thar and say "Damn I can't wait to cube that baby" They like their weird format varriable and I can't say I blame them. "Dragon Cubes" are kinda like powered up limited formats from the eras I was drafting where curves were something you wished for and morphs were amazing because they could all be the dependable grey ogre. Fixing looked like Crosis Catacombs or Archeological Dig.

I think if these people wanted their formats to be more stable we'd be separating out boxes out by colour and distributing cards more evening through packs when we start or whatever. There would be a little more innovation, especially in the area of 700 card cubes.
 
Ridiculous argument, there are all kinds of decks that don't want Wasteland in Vintage and Legacy and (most indicatively) Cube. Its power level is nowhere near that of a Mox.

I've said it before and will say it again: the bad posts on this forum aren't bad because the thought processes are bad, they're bad because the power level assessments are off, mostly due to a lack of competitive play or practical experience, i.e. (in Wadds's words) "theorycrafted." Nobody who has played Vintage or Legacy even something as simplistic (and analogous) as a powered Cube would argue the two cards are remotely comparable.

As a fan of "Midrange Warz" myself, I'd say the best argument you have for running the Moxen is that Upheaval goes from ruining the game to ruining the game a turn earlier (and more decisively). Like ripping off a Band-Aid.

Wtwlf, is that you? Seriously, why all the condescension? I left MTGS to get away from this type of nonsense.
I hear this argument about the power level of moxen a lot. And IMO, it does not hold water (at least not to the degree people often insist). Sure, a mox is a very powerful card as it accelerates you rather unfairly. But without a critical mass of these effects (and equally busted shit to ramp into), it simply doesn't break the game. If all you have in your deck is one mox and no other fast mana or power cards, you are not suddenly going to be demolishing people. I've won plenty of games when my opponent drew his mox early. And I've lost just as many in reverse. Sol Ring and Library both laugh at your moxen (two cards I've never lost a game with when they were in my opening hand - these cards are no longer in my cube).

As far as wasteland goes, in my experience that card does more damage (in a good way - I don't think it's broken) than a mox does because of the grindy type of games my group tends to enjoy (mind you, I'm talking about my meta not yours). Wasteland is an uncounterable answer to many game breaking lands in cube (BS that my group likes to exploit - Stronghold comes to mind), . A mox gives you a head start and it's an awesome tinker target among other things, but late in the game it does a whole lot of nothing (where as wasteland is like winning the lottery a lot of times - it always has a juicy target in multi-player which my group does a lot).


 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
The Mox is powerful because it gives you an effect that is worth two mana for nothing, with basically no risk attached. Of course you could lose a game with that. I mean, after someone mulligans, you still play the game, right? Even though someone just got a free three mana effect (Divination or Mind Rot, your choice)?

I think playing a mox is just slightly below forcing someone else to take a mulligan. Neither automatically wins you the game, but neither makes the game any more interesting.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
There just doesn't seem to be any point in drafting, deckbuilding, or gameplay where Moxen prompt decisions. If you see a Mox, you are taking it. It will make your deck. When you draw it, you will play it without having to think. These are all true the vast majority of the time. It's dull.
 

CML

Contributor
Wtwlf, is that you? Seriously, why all the condescension? I left MTGS to get away from this type of nonsense.

I hear this argument about the power level of moxen a lot. And IMO, it does not hold water (at least not to the degree people often insist). Sure, a mox is a very powerful card as it accelerates you rather unfairly. But without a critical mass of these effects (and equally busted shit to ramp into), it simply doesn't break the game. If all you have in your deck is one mox and no other fast mana or power cards, you are not suddenly going to be demolishing people. I've won plenty of games when my opponent drew his mox early. And I've lost just as many in reverse. Sol Ring and Library both laugh at your moxen (two cards I've never lost a game with when they were in my opening hand - these cards are no longer in my cube).

As far as wasteland goes, in my experience that card does more damage (in a good way - I don't think it's broken) than a mox does because of the grindy type of games my group tends to enjoy (mind you, I'm talking about my meta not yours). Wasteland is an uncounterable answer to many game breaking lands in cube (BS that my group likes to exploit - Stronghold comes to mind), . A mox gives you a head start and it's an awesome tinker target among other things, but late in the game it does a whole lot of nothing (where as wasteland is like winning the lottery a lot of times - it always has a juicy target in multi-player which my group does a lot).

I apologize for my tone. I mean not to beef with you but Moxen.

Moxen do make for a busted start with no drawback and an impoverished drafting dynamic. If I read between the lines I can interpret (however tendentiously) that your post does a good job of arguing against them:

-Moxen are less dumb than Library (yep, no beef here) -- "well, THS limited sure sucked, but it was better than SOM!"
-Wasteland is interactive and fits well into your Cube's ecology by acting as a counter to strong lands or greedy manabases, while everyone just wants a Mox Sapphire.
-Wasteland is a difficult card to play well, especially in mana-hungrier decks: much of the time, you gotta do some amount of hand-reading, anticipating what you're gonna draw, etc. to see if it's worth it to crack it or keep it around for a colorless. Mox Sapphire you just run out on the table.
-If RipLab cubes are lower-margin than MTGS cubes, something like a Mox, more or less strictly better than a land (same in the top-deck scenario you describe above), is going to have a huge impact on the game. It spikes your win percentage in a less direct and obvious way than something like Recurring Nightmare, and it gives a lesser spike than Library or Sol Ring, but I'd be willing to bet that it's rarely defensible (strategically) to pass a Mox in the Cubes you see here, whereas you can pass a Wasteland often. I brought up the power-level concern because I think you hugely underestimate just how much better a Mox is than a replacement Cube card, even a replacement p1p1, and that magnitude is what makes (would likely make?) the dynamic not fun, in my opinion.

In the end, some element of subjectivity and taste is unavoidable, which is the whole point of a trading card game (a point the MTGS dudes miss), and we can never know 100% about the Most Fun Possible Cube or even the effect of .25/360 Mox in a Cube environment, but based on my experiences playing with those cards and so on (experiences many on this forum haven't had) I think it's likely enough your assumptions especially re. power level are flawed to the point where your analysis of Moxen is off. The power-level -> feedback idea was also something that came up once we drafted Wadds' Cube online, got him to cut some of the less well-fitting cards real quick (that his local drafters wouldn't've objected to), and now the Cube is ("probably") "better." Though as someone who initially dismissed DRS and wrote 2,000 words glorifying Tibalt I'm aware I'm not immune from fucking up
 
Though as someone who initially dismissed DRS and wrote 2,000 words glorifying Tibalt I'm aware I'm not immune from fucking up

Micheal Jacobs thought that Tibalt was insane and Huntmaster of the Fells was a terrible card and people still like him
 

CML

Contributor
Micheal Jacobs thought that Tibalt was insane and Huntmaster of the Fells was a terrible card and people still like him


Ya but who am I unless I hold myself to a higher standard?

Maybe MJ gets away with it because he admits he's wrong sometimes, which is my strategy, but it fits in so, so poorly with the Magic gestalt and nerd social fallacies in general
 
If you're running multiple wastelands to keep your mana bases in check, maybe your mana bases are too good. Moxen won't help with that!
 
I apologize for my tone. I mean not to beef with you but Moxen.

No worries. We are all passionate. I get it. I can tell you have a lot of experience with the game (more than I do), so I respect your insight.

Moxen do make for a busted start with no drawback and an impoverished drafting dynamic. If I read between the lines I can interpret (however tendentiously) that your post does a good job of arguing against them:

-Moxen are less dumb than Library (yep, no beef here) -- "well, THS limited sure sucked, but it was better than SOM!"
-Wasteland is interactive and fits well into your Cube's ecology by acting as a counter to strong lands or greedy manabases, while everyone just wants a Mox Sapphire.
-Wasteland is a difficult card to play well, especially in mana-hungrier decks: much of the time, you gotta do some amount of hand-reading, anticipating what you're gonna draw, etc. to see if it's worth it to crack it or keep it around for a colorless. Mox Sapphire you just run out on the table.
-If RipLab cubes are lower-margin than MTGS cubes, something like a Mox, more or less strictly better than a land (same in the top-deck scenario you describe above), is going to have a huge impact on the game. It spikes your win percentage in a less direct and obvious way than something like Recurring Nightmare, and it gives a lesser spike than Library or Sol Ring, but I'd be willing to bet that it's rarely defensible (strategically) to pass a Mox in the Cubes you see here, whereas you can pass a Wasteland often. I brought up the power-level concern because I think you hugely underestimate just how much better a Mox is than a replacement Cube card, even a replacement p1p1, and that magnitude is what makes (would likely make?) the dynamic not fun, in my opinion.

In the end, some element of subjectivity and taste is unavoidable, which is the whole point of a trading card game (a point the MTGS dudes miss), and we can never know 100% about the Most Fun Possible Cube or even the effect of .25/360 Mox in a Cube environment, but based on my experiences playing with those cards and so on (experiences many on this forum haven't had) I think it's likely enough your assumptions especially re. power level are flawed to the point where your analysis of Moxen is off. The power-level -> feedback idea was also something that came up once we drafted Wadds' Cube online, got him to cut some of the less well-fitting cards real quick (that his local drafters wouldn't've objected to), and now the Cube is ("probably") "better." Though as someone who initially dismissed DRS and wrote 2,000 words glorifying Tibalt I'm aware I'm not immune from fucking up

All valid points. And the two things somewhat unique to my group that probably really help to hide how powerful the moxen really are:
1. My cube is slower than most cubes on this site. Virtually no one plays straight aggro (except me occasionally in a futile attempt to show the group how fun it can be) and very few build brutally efficient decks and that's because...
2. The group I play in is super casual. They play Magic because they like to get together and hang out and I took the time to build a cube so hey let's play that. No one is a die hard Magic fan. No one really cares about winning or excelling at the game. Guys like to build durdly decks that try and do ridiculous things like infinite combos or build an army and swing for 70. It's why we tend to play a lot of two headed giant and free-for-all multiplayer. Guys just like the less competitive vibe of those formats better.

So I agree in a faster and more competitive environment the mox are probably >>>>>>> than pretty much everything else in my cube (and that in a vacuum they are auto P1P1 and do nothing to improve the cube drafts or meta). But it just doesn't really play out that way with the mindset my group has. Where guys with three mox in their deck should be running the table, they are instead losing because they decided to build a bizarre 5 color deck that tries to win the game with walls (an exaggeration, but not far off from the truth - I have one guy who builds those kinds of decks because he likes trying to win in the most improbable way possible. He did in fact have a casual wall deck back in the day. And I don't think he ever won a game with it). In short, my players sort of suck and they don't really care that they suck. It's all just a social activity.

On the subject of auto P1P1... I realize that is sort of not desirable. But isn't it virtually impossible to avoid? The only way you could make it so that certain cards were not auto high picks would be to make a cube with a super flat power curve. And would that even be fun to play? Half of the fun of opening a pack is to see if you land a mox or something else super broken (like Jitte or a hateful land that everyone despises playing against). The one thing I really like about the moxen is that it helps guide people into colors. If you draw a mox pearl, you are probably going to want to make a Wx deck. Not that you can't use it just as a splash and run UB or something, but there is now a clear incentive to start thinking about taking white cards. This has actually helped with drafting a little bit. Again, my group is casual. Guys don't really spend a lot of time reading the table and trying to figure out what colors everyone is going with by what wheels and what doesn't. They sort of just pick stuff that looks cool and go from there.
 
there's a big difference between cards that are much better and cards that are auto p1p1

cards like elspeth, moxen, sol ring, etc are auto p1p1 nearly no matter what your environment is (unless your environment is 359 vampire hexmages and 1 elspeth lol). on the other hand something that's really good like sulfuric vortex, opposition, or even grbs like balance isn't an auto p1p1 in many or most cubes even if they are the best cards in whatever cube.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Completely disagree that Moxen guide people into decks. Unless your Cube has a lot of colour-intensive cards, which is something we've been conditioned to shy away from, it rarely matters what colour the Mox is, and they lack the fun and tension of other first-picks that do guide you into colours: if I take Liliana of the Veil I have a strong incentive to go into black, but if I'm seeing few/weak black cards I have to weigh the benefits of jumping into another colour; and if I'm in black already, opening Liliana is far more gratifying because you feel rewarded (despite it being entirely random). Banking a Mox that I know is 100% to make my 40 makes me happy in as much as I know my deck is better, but it doesn't set my mind whirring or give me expectations for upcoming packs.
 

CML

Contributor
For a few months I was running Jack-in-the-Mox, which would 1/6 of the time blow up in your face and other times would tap for colorless. I thought it was great fun (and, on some level, it was great fun) until one of our competitive heroes claimed it was "the best card in the Cube by far," which I realized was true and uhhhhh I wish he'd've told me earlier.

Mox Diamond is really good, Chrome Mox is kind of a piece of shit but I like 'em both.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Man, I wish Mox Opal was good. There's certainly a way for it to, but man that would be so hard for me.

I love the idea of a mox that can still accell you early, but takes some non-card disadvantage work to happen
 
I like this 720-expanded concept. What do you guys think of labeling certain stacks of cards with colored stickers for "Common" and "Rare", such that you always play with the entire Common stack and then randomly throw in a few randoms from the Rare stack for variance/power? You could even do this pack by pack as an option if you really wanted (give each pack two random Rares or whatever).

You could split up the same cardname between both stacks as well. For example, 4 Gravecrawlers in Common (so you don't run into the variance problem of zero Gravecrawler drafts) and 4 in the Rare stack.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I like this 720-expanded concept. What do you guys think of labeling certain stacks of cards with colored stickers for "Common" and "Rare", such that you always play with the entire Common stack and then randomly throw in a few randoms from the Rare stack for variance/power? You could even do this pack by pack as an option if you really wanted (give each pack two random Rares or whatever).

You could split up the same cardname between both stacks as well. For example, 4 Gravecrawlers in Common (so you don't run into the variance problem of zero Gravecrawler drafts) and 4 in the Rare stack.

I don't know if you've read the whole thread, but currently I am working with a probability-based list intended for online use:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkmGq9EqXDoidFBlWEZMNms0Nzg5WEtWNUpiOVZnU2c&usp=sharing

One card is randomly sampled per row, creating a unique 360-card list each time.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I like this 720-expanded concept. What do you guys think of labeling certain stacks of cards with colored stickers for "Common" and "Rare", such that you always play with the entire Common stack and then randomly throw in a few randoms from the Rare stack for variance/power? You could even do this pack by pack as an option if you really wanted (give each pack two random Rares or whatever).

You could split up the same cardname between both stacks as well. For example, 4 Gravecrawlers in Common (so you don't run into the variance problem of zero Gravecrawler drafts) and 4 in the Rare stack.

But yes, sticker-tech is pretty nice. I've used it before, and it does cut some of the tedium from the process.
 
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